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Guy Carbonneau


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Bergeron is dead on. And not to pat myself on the back -- but I will anyway! ;):lol: -- but I have been talking about how easily we give up the blue line since last season. I've never seen a team that gives up its blue line as easily and as frequently as we do.

At some point, you have to wonder whether there's a problem with our scheme.

Edit: On a completely unrelated note, I just saw the picture on the front page of habsinsideout. Man. Carbonneau's wife is quite the bombshell.

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from habsinsideout:

The Canadiens were supposed to be on Bell Centre ice at 11 this morning.

They weren't.

The team held a 60-minute off-ice meeting, Pat Hickey reports, followed by a 75-minute high-intensity practice.

This is what I want to see -- a big meeting, and then a punishing practice. Go get 'em, Carbo!

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Bergeron is dead on. And not to pat myself on the back -- but I will anyway! ;):lol: -- but I have been talking about how easily we give up the blue line since last season. I've never seen a team that gives up its blue line as easily and as frequently as we do.

At some point, you have to wonder whether there's a problem with our scheme.

Edit: On a completely unrelated note, I just saw the picture on the front page of habsinsideout. Man. Carbonneau's wife is quite the bombshell.

they dont start defending until the attack reaches our slot and they dont even do that sometimes

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Bergeron is dead on. And not to pat myself on the back -- but I will anyway! ;):lol: -- but I have been talking about how easily we give up the blue line since last season. I've never seen a team that gives up its blue line as easily and as frequently as we do.

At some point, you have to wonder whether there's a problem with our scheme.

Edit: On a completely unrelated note, I just saw the picture on the front page of habsinsideout. Man. Carbonneau's wife is quite the bombshell.

Agreed... but I bet its the players that get the brunt of the blame.
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When the players themselves admit they are playing like dogs you bet your sweet but they will get the brunt of the blame !!!
I never knew you liked my butt that much Miltie... come to think of it I never knew you ever saw it :D I'm not your kind of guy :lol: (humor)

You are defiitely right. But either the d-scheme has been forgotten or was/is as Weep has eluded to.

It was a passive d-system to begin with and has become even more so.

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The players obviously got the message, even though there was still a relapse into the gap problem between the forwards and D in the third period.

Also, not to be overly picky because it didn't burn us, but we had our 3rd and 4th line matched up against Spezza/Heatley a few times and even Pierre McGuire made a note of it saying it was unacceptable with last change to have these kind of match ups, and it's a major advantage for the Sens.

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Also, not to be overly picky because it didn't burn us, but we had our 3rd and 4th line matched up against Spezza/Heatley a few times and even Pierre McGuire made a note of it saying it was unacceptable with last change to have these kind of match ups, and it's a major advantage for the Sens.

I agree, our fourth line shouldn't be out there with those guys. Guy must know something that we can't see.

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Also, not to be overly picky because it didn't burn us, but we had our 3rd and 4th line matched up against Spezza/Heatley a few times and even Pierre McGuire made a note of it saying it was unacceptable with last change to have these kind of match ups, and it's a major advantage for the Sens.

They ended up pinned a few times and got a few penalties because of it. Maybe Carbo figures its better to let them get pinned rather than one of the first two lines? Not sure, but maybe he truly believes that our third and fourth line can handles defensive duties while our top two focus on scoring.

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Also, not to be overly picky because it didn't burn us, but we had our 3rd and 4th line matched up against Spezza/Heatley a few times and even Pierre McGuire made a note of it saying it was unacceptable with last change to have these kind of match ups, and it's a major advantage for the Sens.

I think Lang actually matches up well against Spezza. I would say Carbo wanted to try the Matchup as Lang is our bigest center.

Just Because Mcquire mentioned it does not make it right.

You can put any line out against Spezza and Heatly they will get their share of scoring chances. You just try to limit them.

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Also, not to be overly picky because it didn't burn us, but we had our 3rd and 4th line matched up against Spezza/Heatley a few times and even Pierre McGuire made a note of it saying it was unacceptable with last change to have these kind of match ups, and it's a major advantage for the Sens.

I noticed that too, and commented on it in the game thread. It's been a long-running complaint of mine for (without exaggeration) years now. Carbo is really hamstringing our ability to win via depth. In theory, if we match our top line against the other team's top line and they cancel each other out, we'll win most games because of our superior depth.

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I noticed that too, and commented on it in the game thread. It's been a long-running complaint of mine for (without exaggeration) years now. Carbo is really hamstringing our ability to win via depth. In theory, if we match our top line against the other team's top line and they cancel each other out, we'll win most games because of our superior depth.

I'm not sure which line you're referring to as "top line", I know the top line was the Pleks line to start the seaosn, then it was the Koivu line, I'm not sure if Carbo's switched it back yet.

But in any case, I'd love to see us try matching lines by placing Koivu's line (whether you call it top or second) against the other team's top lines. Koivu seems to thrive against other teams offensive players and if we can even get a +/- of 0 out of that, our depth can overcome it. We then can use our other lines to get very desirable matchups for the Kovalev line.

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since Guy has been running the show here the team has responded well after a loss, which you cant say about the julien or therrien eras

Well not to take anything away from him, because whatever he said to the team obviously got them motivated, so good job on that.

But ... Julien and Therien never had the talent avoid slumps the way this team does. While I'm not a big fan of Therien, I think Julien is an excellent coach and remember that he managed to get Boston to almost pull off a big upset against us last playoffs: they were down and he got them going and almost pulled off a big upset.

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I think Lang actually matches up well against Spezza. I would say Carbo wanted to try the Matchup as Lang is our bigest center.

Just Because Mcquire mentioned it does not make it right.

You can put any line out against Spezza and Heatly they will get their share of scoring chances. You just try to limit them.

I was thinking the same thing last night, Cap. I felt that Carbo was trying to match Lang to Spezza, and I thought it worked decent. Certainly, Lang and SK74 are very responsible defensively, and Lats has improved tremendously that way. The line provided some size to go up against the Spezza line too, as you say. I really didn't have a problem myself with Carbo's apparent match-up.

Also, we will all recall the Alfie/Spezza/Heatley line burned the AK27/Pleks/AK46 line good a couple of times last year (for entire games).

And Saturday not being too long ago, I am still having nightmares about Andropov's goal for T.O. against the Habs, where he stood in the crease whacking away at the puck while the entire Koivu line huddled about him and "cast spells upon him" (or something, because they certainly didn't look like they about to try and knock him over :rolleyes: ) :D .

Sometimes McGuire talks without thinking things through too much; a necessary habit of live coverage, and having to stay "on" for 30 different NHL teams, so I am not really faulting him -- he certainly does a whole lot better than I'd ever do. ;)

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The theory that Saku cannot match against top lines, is, with all due respect to those concerned, nonsense. Saku has always thrived on those matchups, and using Saturday's debacle of a game against the Leafs as proof that he can't cover big players is not at all fair. What wears Saku down over 82 games is having to support rookies and lower-tier players on his line game in and game out. With Tanguay, he has more room to maneuver. Have we already forgotten how he went head to head against big Joe Thornton in 03-04? Saku can handle himself just fine.

It doesn't really matter whether it's Saku's line or Plekanec's line that matches up against the top teams, just as long as it's not Lats-Lang-Sergei combined with our third D pairing. Lang is very responsible, but he's centering two kids, and Lats isn't exactly a paragon of defensive responsibility yet -- he still tends to float around in the defensive zone instead of playing a man or a zone.

The other thing is the D matchups. When I see Spezza and Heatley on the ice, I want to see Komisarek and Markov there immediately. No Bouillon, no Gorges, and please, God, no O'Byrne.

This is basic coaching, not anything ground-breaking or extraordinary. Line matching is something every good coach does. The fact that Carbonneau doesn't bother with it is, quite frankly, a mistake on his part, and an indication that he has to get better as a coach.

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The theory that Saku cannot match against top lines, is, with all due respect to those concerned, nonsense. Saku has always thrived on those matchups, and using Saturday's debacle of a game against the Leafs as proof that he can't cover big players is not at all fair. What wears Saku down over 82 games is having to support rookies and lower-tier players on his line game in and game out. With Tanguay, he has more room to maneuver. Have we already forgotten how he went head to head against big Joe Thornton in 03-04? Saku can handle himself just fine.

It doesn't really matter whether it's Saku's line or Plekanec's line that matches up against the top teams, just as long as it's not Lats-Lang-Sergei combined with our third D pairing. Lang is very responsible, but he's centering two kids, and Lats isn't exactly a paragon of defensive responsibility yet -- he still tends to float around in the defensive zone instead of playing a man or a zone.

The other thing is the D matchups. When I see Spezza and Heatley on the ice, I want to see Komisarek and Markov there immediately. No Bouillon, no Gorges, and please, God, no O'Byrne.

This is basic coaching, not anything ground-breaking or extraordinary. Line matching is something every good coach does. The fact that Carbonneau doesn't bother with it is, quite frankly, a mistake on his part, and an indication that he has to get better as a coach.

It is basic coaching ? You could very well say the opposite is true.

From the time I started watching hockey till the Oilers dynasty (if you can call them that) it was actually quite common to have your third and fourth lines go up against the other teams top two lines. Power vrs power was the exception, not the rule. Carbo knows this well, he was one of those third/fourth line guys. Playing power vrs power when you have small centers is difficult. Taking beatings from big Dmen in the offensive zone, and beatings from big forwards in the defensive zone wears on them. Saku has done well in the past but it has had it's effect on him. Why do you think he has disappeared from the stats list every Jan thru March the last few years ? Maybe this season will be different.

I would suggest you are not watching poor coaching as opposed to a type of coaching you are not accustomed to.

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It is basic coaching ? You could very well say the opposite is true.

From the time I started watching hockey till the Oilers dynasty (if you can call them that) it was actually quite common to have your third and fourth lines go up against the other teams top two lines. Power vrs power was the exception, not the rule. Carbo knows this well, he was one of those third/fourth line guys. Playing power vrs power when you have small centers is difficult. Taking beatings from big Dmen in the offensive zone, and beatings from big forwards in the defensive zone wears on them. Saku has done well in the past but it has had it's effect on him. Why do you think he has disappeared from the stats list every Jan thru March the last few years ? Maybe this season will be different.

I would suggest you are not watching poor coaching as opposed to a type of coaching you are not accustomed to.

Coaching 25 years ago and coaching today are two different animals. Look around the league, Miltie, and find me a good coach who lets his fourth line and third D pairing play against the other team's top players, at home, when he has the last line change. You won't find one. Sorry. The Oilers dynasties are from a different era of hockey and have little if anything to do with the game that is played today.

You are incorrect regarding Saku getting worn down from matching against top lines. Carbo himself explicitly said in a recent interview that he matched lines in years past because our talent level was lower (Bonk-Johnson, etc.). Since last year, he stopped matching lines because we're a better team, which proves to me that he doesn't understand that line matching is even more important when you're the better team, because it allows you to win games with your superior depth. Take away our top line (Saku's line) and the other team's top line, and who wins? We do, because we have two more lines that are perfectly capable of scoring at any time, two lines that will almost certainly be better quality than anything the other team has to offer on most nights.

I know it pains you to admit that Guy Carbonneau could ever make a mistake, Miltie. I know the coach of the Montreal Canadiens is a God who can do no wrong. But he is making a mistake by not matching lines.

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Coaching 25 years ago and coaching today are two different animals. Look around the league, Miltie, and find me a good coach who lets his fourth line and third D pairing play against the other team's top players, at home, when he has the last line change. You won't find one. Sorry. The Oilers dynasties are from a different era of hockey and have little if anything to do with the game that is played today.

You are incorrect regarding Saku getting worn down from matching against top lines. Carbo himself explicitly said in a recent interview that he matched lines in years past because our talent level was lower (Bonk-Johnson, etc.). Since last year, he stopped matching lines because we're a better team, which proves to me that he doesn't understand that line matching is even more important when you're the better team, because it allows you to win games with your superior depth. Take away our top line (Saku's line) and the other team's top line, and who wins? We do, because we have two more lines that are perfectly capable of scoring at any time, two lines that will almost certainly be better quality than anything the other team has to offer on most nights.

I know it pains you to admit that Guy Carbonneau could ever make a mistake, Miltie. I know the coach of the Montreal Canadiens is a God who can do no wrong. But he is making a mistake by not matching lines.

Not matching lines has did a pretty good job of getting the points so far Weep.

Even with the other coach getting his favourable matches we have a 9-2-2 record.

If the players played the earlier games like they did last night, our record would be much better, maybe even perfect.

I would say our depth has done a fine job showing through.

I still say it is you who may not fully understand, and that Carbo does.

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Can I ask you something, Miltie? Is it just humanly possible that Guy Carbonneau can make mistakes just like the rest of us? Because honestly, your constant need to explain away everything he does is a bit weird. He isn't a God, he's not infallible, and in terms of coaching resume, hasn't proven anything at the NHL level. If he had Cup rings as a coach, I could see your point in defending him all the time, 24/7. But he is a young coach in only his third season as a head coach. He is much improved from when he started, and he does lots of things right -- motivating the team following the Leafs loss is an example of the good work he's doing -- but there are also things he does wrong. I just find it odd that certain members, yourself included, are absolutely unwilling to ever admit that Carbonneau could make a mistake.

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Can I ask you something, Miltie? Is it just humanly possible that Guy Carbonneau can make mistakes just like the rest of us? Because honestly, your constant need to explain away everything he does is a bit weird. He isn't a God, he's not infallible, and in terms of coaching resume, hasn't proven anything at the NHL level. If he had Cup rings as a coach, I could see your point in defending him all the time, 24/7. But he is a young coach in only his third season as a head coach. He is much improved from when he started, and he does lots of things right -- motivating the team following the Leafs loss is an example of the good work he's doing -- but there are also things he does wrong. I just find it odd that certain members, yourself included, are absolutely unwilling to ever admit that Carbonneau could make a mistake.

Honestly Weep, we have a pretty darn good record, and the team has not even played to it's capabilities yet.....how much of a mistake can he be making ? There are times I disagree with the choices and decisions he makes, my problem is looking for things to complain about. For a team at this stage in the process , yes they are still learning how to be winners at this stage, they are doing just fine imho, not to much need for Carbo to change much.

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