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Jay Bouwmeester


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What most fail to acknowledge or recognize is that if we did make a huge deal to get Jaybo ... there is absolutely no guarentee he stays with Montreal next seaon, meaning we cost ourselves the components we traded to get him for short term gain.

We don't need Jaybo ... we a need a #4 Dman on depth.

I agree with both you and anetechrist on this...It's short term "Win Now" thinking which is more often then not a recipe for disaster.

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What most fail to acknowledge or recognize is that if we did make a huge deal to get Jaybo ... there is absolutely no guarentee he stays with Montreal next seaon, meaning we cost ourselves the components we traded to get him for short term gain.

People were saying the same about Kovalev and he re-signed, back in a time when the team wasn't winning...

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People were saying the same about Kovalev and he re-signed, back in a time when the team wasn't winning...

The difference is ... it didn't cost us much to get Kovalev. The impact if he hadn't signed was minimal.

On March 13, 2004 he was traded to the Montreal Canadiens for Jozef Balej and a second round selection

It's going to cost us a lot more to get Jaybo than a questionable prospect and a 2nd round choice. If Kovalev had not resigned we were out Balej and that pick ... the trade it will take to get Jaybo will cost us a currently contributing player or two and a highly touted prospect

Pity, I would have loved to see the Habs sign Schneider when he was available. He would have made an excellent addition as the 4th Dman providing offense, defense and leadership.

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The difference is ... it didn't cost us much to get Kovalev. The impact if he hadn't signed was minimal.

On March 13, 2004 he was traded to the Montreal Canadiens for Jozef Balej and a second round selection

It's going to cost us a lot more to get Jaybo than a questionable prospect and a 2nd round choice. If Kovalev had not resigned we were out Balej and that pick ... the trade it will take to get Jaybo will cost us a currently contributing player or two and a highly touted prospect

I understand that he didn't cost us much, and that's not what I'm comparing here. I'm saying that people didn't believe that he would re-sign with us when he became a UFA. People were concerned that Markov would hit the open market and leave. Those signings occurred back when the team wasn't winning. The situations are different and many players re-sign with winning teams for, well, a chance to win it all!

I'm saying that it's jumping the gun in assuming or predicting that Bouwmeester wouldn't re-sign with us, that's all.

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I understand that he didn't cost us much, and that's not what I'm comparing here. I'm saying that people didn't believe that he would re-sign with us when he became a UFA. People were concerned that Markov would hit the open market and leave. Those signings occurred back when the team wasn't winning. The situations are different and many players re-sign with winning teams for, well, a chance to win it all!

I'm saying that it's jumping the gun in assuming or predicting that Bouwmeester wouldn't re-sign with us, that's all.

I'd also argue that it's jumping the gun assuming he would resign with us. It's also jumping the gun to argue that he is the missing puzzle piece ... I think in order to acquire him would cost us too many other pieces of our puzzle that it would severely change the chemistry and direction of the team.

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Agreed. We have Price in net for years to come. We have Markov and Hamrlik signed for a few more years, and I'm drooling at the thought of having Bouwmeester joining those two at our blue line. If there is enough money, you re-sign Komisarek. If not, you've improved regardless.

don't get me wrong I would like to have Bouwmeester or even a Ohlund...any top notched star for that matter....for the right price that is....but like others I too would rather keep the majority of players we have now and not mortgage our future either, and as good as Bouwmeester might be, I agree with others that u would probably have to trade to mcuh, and in the end lose him and Komisarek as a UFA, and I'd really hate to lose Komisarek....one of the top 5 best defensive defenseman in the league IMO......seems kind of funny that we did have a pretty good puck moving defenseman with a pretty good shot, who had us 62 points last season in Mark Streit but he didn't seem to matter to alot of people on here

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I'd also argue that it's jumping the gun assuming he would resign with us. It's also jumping the gun to argue that he is the missing puzzle piece ... I think in order to acquire him would cost us too many other pieces of our puzzle that it would severely change the chemistry and direction of the team.

No one here is jumping the gun saying that he will re-sign with us, but a few are saying that he won't. That's where I was getting at. Now if getting a top 2 defenseman doesn't help, I don't know what will. As for the team chemistry, if you pickup a #4 defenseman, it's just as big of a risk as others won't have their ice time. It all depends on the type of individual you get, in both cases.

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This is harsh, but if you gave me a choice between signing Komisarek or Bouwmeester to a long-term deal, I'd take Bouwmeester. Without hesitation. That's why I think going after JayBo is the way to go. We get him and our hand is strengthened if Komisarek chooses to go for the dolla dolla bills and sign elsewhere.

The other thing that I don't think folks have considered enough is the difference in perspective between the two players given their careers thus far. I agree that there is no guarantee we'd be able to get JayBo locked up to a long-term deal even if we do trade for him this year. However, Bouwmeester has spent his entire career in Florida, i.e. in mediocrity. He's never known anything except playing for a crappy team with a non-existent fanbase that never makes the playoffs. To this dreary situation is now added the 'joy' of playing in Jacques Martin's system. Bouwmeester already makes $4.8 million. Part of why he refused to get a deal done with the Panthers this summer is because he wanted to see the direction of the team before committing long term. This tells me that he's sick of playing for losers, and consequently, that his goal as a UFA won't be to get as much money as possible regardless of where he's playing. He's been there and done that and I don't think it's off-base to opine that JayBo's desire to play for a contender outweighs his desire to get the absolute top dollar in free agency.

This doesn't mean he'll sign with us; after all, every team in the league will be clamoring for his services. However, his perspective is vastly different from Komisarek, who is only making $1.9 million this year and who's never known anything except playing for the most storied franchise in the league. Komisarek, in my estimation, is much more likely to be concerned with dollars and term in free agency; this is his first time touching big money, and since he's never played for anyone but the Habs, he doesn't know how depressing it can be to toil away in some obscure hockey market playing for a moribund franchise. Marian Hossa found that out in Atlanta; it's why he took less than market value to sign with Detroit. I'm not knocking Komi by any means. I just feel that since he hasn't lived through the downside of playing in a market like Florida, he may be underestimating just how beneficial a team like Montreal has been to his development. It's not just the fans, the history, the packed arenas, and the fact that we're an exciting young team on the upswing. It's the fact that he was allowed to break into the league gradually, and greatly assisted in his development by playing with one of the top defensemen in the league, Andrei Markov. If he chooses to sign somewhere else, there's no guarantee he'll have a Markov to anchor his pairing. Suddenly, he'll be burdened with an expensive contract, a weaker team (since it's generally only the weaker teams that can throw crazy money at UFAs), a tepid fan base, and heightened expectations. But because Komisarek has spent his whole career in Montreal, he might not realize what he's getting into until it's too late.

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This is harsh, but if you gave me a choice between signing Komisarek or Bouwmeester to a long-term deal, I'd take Bouwmeester. Without hesitation. That's why I think going after JayBo is the way to go. We get him and our hand is strengthened if Komisarek chooses to go for the dolla dolla bills and sign elsewhere.

The other thing that I don't think folks have considered enough is the difference in perspective between the two players given their careers thus far. I agree that there is no guarantee we'd be able to get JayBo locked up to a long-term deal even if we do trade for him this year. However, Bouwmeester has spent his entire career in Florida, i.e. in mediocrity. He's never known anything except playing for a crappy team with a non-existent fanbase that never makes the playoffs. To this dreary situation is now added the 'joy' of playing in Jacques Martin's system. Bouwmeester already makes $4.8 million. Part of why he refused to get a deal done with the Panthers this summer is because he wanted to see the direction of the team before committing long term. This tells me that he's sick of playing for losers, and consequently, that his goal as a UFA won't be to get as much money as possible regardless of where he's playing. He's been there and done that and I don't think it's off-base to opine that JayBo's desire to play for a contender outweighs his desire to get the absolute top dollar in free agency.

This doesn't mean he'll sign with us; after all, every team in the league will be clamoring for his services. However, his perspective is vastly different from Komisarek, who is only making $1.9 million this year and who's never known anything except playing for the most storied franchise in the league. Komisarek, in my estimation, is much more likely to be concerned with dollars and term in free agency; this is his first time touching big money, and since he's never played for anyone but the Habs, he doesn't know how depressing it can be to toil away in some obscure hockey market playing for a moribund franchise. Marian Hossa found that out in Atlanta; it's why he took less than market value to sign with Detroit. I'm not knocking Komi by any means. I just feel that since he hasn't lived through the downside of playing in a market like Florida, he may be underestimating just how beneficial a team like Montreal has been to his development. It's not just the fans, the history, the packed arenas, and the fact that we're an exciting young team on the upswing. It's the fact that he was allowed to break into the league gradually, and greatly assisted in his development by playing with one of the top defensemen in the league, Andrei Markov. If he chooses to sign somewhere else, there's no guarantee he'll have a Markov to anchor his pairing. Suddenly, he'll be burdened with an expensive contract, a weaker team (since it's generally only the weaker teams that can throw crazy money at UFAs), a tepid fan base, and heightened expectations. But because Komisarek has spent his whole career in Montreal, he might not realize what he's getting into until it's too late.

You better bet that if Bouwmeester was playing here, people would be laughing at the suggestion of letting him walk to make room for Komisarek. And I love Komo, he's a great player and seems like a great guy!

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This is harsh, but if you gave me a choice between signing Komisarek or Bouwmeester to a long-term deal, I'd take Bouwmeester. Without hesitation. That's why I think going after JayBo is the way to go. We get him and our hand is strengthened if Komisarek chooses to go for the dolla dolla bills and sign elsewhere.

The other thing that I don't think folks have considered enough is the difference in perspective between the two players given their careers thus far. I agree that there is no guarantee we'd be able to get JayBo locked up to a long-term deal even if we do trade for him this year. However, Bouwmeester has spent his entire career in Florida, i.e. in mediocrity. He's never known anything except playing for a crappy team with a non-existent fanbase that never makes the playoffs. To this dreary situation is now added the 'joy' of playing in Jacques Martin's system. Bouwmeester already makes $4.8 million. Part of why he refused to get a deal done with the Panthers this summer is because he wanted to see the direction of the team before committing long term. This tells me that he's sick of playing for losers, and consequently, that his goal as a UFA won't be to get as much money as possible regardless of where he's playing. He's been there and done that and I don't think it's off-base to opine that JayBo's desire to play for a contender outweighs his desire to get the absolute top dollar in free agency.

This doesn't mean he'll sign with us; after all, every team in the league will be clamoring for his services. However, his perspective is vastly different from Komisarek, who is only making $1.9 million this year and who's never known anything except playing for the most storied franchise in the league. Komisarek, in my estimation, is much more likely to be concerned with dollars and term in free agency; this is his first time touching big money, and since he's never played for anyone but the Habs, he doesn't know how depressing it can be to toil away in some obscure hockey market playing for a moribund franchise. Marian Hossa found that out in Atlanta; it's why he took less than market value to sign with Detroit. I'm not knocking Komi by any means. I just feel that since he hasn't lived through the downside of playing in a market like Florida, he may be underestimating just how beneficial a team like Montreal has been to his development. It's not just the fans, the history, the packed arenas, and the fact that we're an exciting young team on the upswing. It's the fact that he was allowed to break into the league gradually, and greatly assisted in his development by playing with one of the top defensemen in the league, Andrei Markov. If he chooses to sign somewhere else, there's no guarantee he'll have a Markov to anchor his pairing. Suddenly, he'll be burdened with an expensive contract, a weaker team (since it's generally only the weaker teams that can throw crazy money at UFAs), a tepid fan base, and heightened expectations. But because Komisarek has spent his whole career in Montreal, he might not realize what he's getting into until it's too late.

I understand where ur coming from, but you are forgetting, that Andrei Markov wouldn't be one of the better defenseman in the league if it wasn't for Komisarek, because until they were paired up on a consistant basis Markov thought offense and nothing else, but since they've been paired up they have gelled very well, and u don't think Komisarek could gel with someone else...even on a weaker team if we lost him? and who is to say that Bouwmeester would do as well as u say in a Hab uniform, after so many seasons on a weak Florida team, maybe he'd make the same mistakes here as he did there....atleast Komisarek has proven himself as one of the most physical and best defensive defenseman in the league, and he'd go on being that same type of defenseman....being a Hab or not....and I think it would be a big loss if we do in the end lose him

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There's been a lot of talk about Bouwmeester this season, but recently it has become more and more likely that Ohlund may be available...i like the thought of Ohlund for a number of reasons, he is an ideal 4th dman who is alot cheaper than J-Bow and has a rocket from the point which we could use on the PP, also the asking price would be alot less... i think we may be able to swing a deal similar to this:

Latendresse + O'byrne + 3rd TO VAN

Ohlund + 5th to MTL... we may need to throw in another offensive prosepect as well!?

What do you think? If we get Ohlund, O'byrne is expendable as Ohlund still has at minimum 3-4 good years in him, and then we will have LOTS ofour d prospects ready... and Lats may leave a minor whole but i think calling Patches up to play with Lang- S.Kost could fill that just fine...i know ppl may be worried about rushing him and maybe so, if thats the case we could still get away by plugging players in there until the deadline!!!

Thoughts???

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There's been a lot of talk about Bouwmeester this season, but recently it has become more and more likely that Ohlund may be available...i like the thought of Ohlund for a number of reasons, he is an ideal 4th dman who is alot cheaper than J-Bow and has a rocket from the point which we could use on the PP, also the asking price would be alot less... i think we may be able to swing a deal similar to this:

Latendresse + O'byrne + 3rd TO VAN

Ohlund + 5th to MTL... we may need to throw in another offensive prosepect as well!?

What do you think? If we get Ohlund, O'byrne is expendable as Ohlund still has at minimum 3-4 good years in him, and then we will have LOTS ofour d prospects ready... and Lats may leave a minor whole but i think calling Patches up to play with Lang- S.Kost could fill that just fine...i know ppl may be worried about rushing him and maybe so, if thats the case we could still get away by plugging players in there until the deadline!!!

Thoughts???

It just occurred to me while reading your post that it seems wierd discussing concerns of rushing a prospect we may want to bring up as a replacement for a player that we are trading away after having rushed him a tad as an 18 yr.old! :rolleyes: However,I think I'd strongly consider your deal .It sounds darned good to me!

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This is harsh, but if you gave me a choice between signing Komisarek or Bouwmeester to a long-term deal, I'd take Bouwmeester. Without hesitation. That's why I think going after JayBo is the way to go. We get him and our hand is strengthened if Komisarek chooses to go for the dolla dolla bills and sign elsewhere.

The other thing that I don't think folks have considered enough is the difference in perspective between the two players given their careers thus far. I agree that there is no guarantee we'd be able to get JayBo locked up to a long-term deal even if we do trade for him this year. However, Bouwmeester has spent his entire career in Florida, i.e. in mediocrity. He's never known anything except playing for a crappy team with a non-existent fanbase that never makes the playoffs. To this dreary situation is now added the 'joy' of playing in Jacques Martin's system. Bouwmeester already makes $4.8 million. Part of why he refused to get a deal done with the Panthers this summer is because he wanted to see the direction of the team before committing long term. This tells me that he's sick of playing for losers, and consequently, that his goal as a UFA won't be to get as much money as possible regardless of where he's playing. He's been there and done that and I don't think it's off-base to opine that JayBo's desire to play for a contender outweighs his desire to get the absolute top dollar in free agency.

This doesn't mean he'll sign with us; after all, every team in the league will be clamoring for his services. However, his perspective is vastly different from Komisarek, who is only making $1.9 million this year and who's never known anything except playing for the most storied franchise in the league. Komisarek, in my estimation, is much more likely to be concerned with dollars and term in free agency; this is his first time touching big money, and since he's never played for anyone but the Habs, he doesn't know how depressing it can be to toil away in some obscure hockey market playing for a moribund franchise. Marian Hossa found that out in Atlanta; it's why he took less than market value to sign with Detroit. I'm not knocking Komi by any means. I just feel that since he hasn't lived through the downside of playing in a market like Florida, he may be underestimating just how beneficial a team like Montreal has been to his development. It's not just the fans, the history, the packed arenas, and the fact that we're an exciting young team on the upswing. It's the fact that he was allowed to break into the league gradually, and greatly assisted in his development by playing with one of the top defensemen in the league, Andrei Markov. If he chooses to sign somewhere else, there's no guarantee he'll have a Markov to anchor his pairing. Suddenly, he'll be burdened with an expensive contract, a weaker team (since it's generally only the weaker teams that can throw crazy money at UFAs), a tepid fan base, and heightened expectations. But because Komisarek has spent his whole career in Montreal, he might not realize what he's getting into until it's too late.

great post, weep.

like i said earlier, if we can get jaybo without selling the farm, id do it. the fact is that chances are we WONT end up with both bouwmeester AND komi signed over the summer, so in effect 1 of the 2 becomes a 'rental' - and i dont like overpaying for rentals. If florida would consider a package of Higgins/Obyrne/picks/prospects, I would do the deal. If they want more then I would have to think hard.

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My assumption is we could wrestle JayBo out of Florida with the following...

Higgins

O'Byrne

One of: Webber, Carle or Halak

1st Rounder

They would also have to accept a salary dump and if given the choice, I imagine they take Boullion to increase their physical game. Florida has a surprisingly decent depth on the forward front yet lack defense or a exceptional backup.

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My assumption is we could wrestle JayBo out of Florida with the following...

Higgins

O'Byrne

One of: Webber, Carle or Halak

1st Rounder

They would also have to accept a salary dump and if given the choice, I imagine they take Boullion to increase their physical game. Florida has a surprisingly decent depth on the forward front yet lack defense or a exceptional backup.

I would do:

Bouwmeester

for

Higgins

Obyrne

Webber OR Carle

Boullion or Dandy

2nd rouder 2009

If we could somehow get them to throw in Matthias then I would add a 1st rounder ;) ;)

We end up with possibly the best top 4 defensive group in the league, a bonefide shot at the cup this year and if we cant (most likely) resign Komi AND Bouwmeester, we gave up Higgins & prospects - I can live with that.

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I would do that in a heartbeat however I have a distinct feeling Florida will attempt to wrestle away our first round pick. You know out of curiosity I may just ask on their website and see what the fans expect for Jaybo. Probably only good for a laugh however you never know.

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I would do:

Bouwmeester

for

Higgins

Obyrne

Webber OR Carle

Boullion or Dandy

2nd rouder 2009

If we could somehow get them to throw in Matthias then I would add a 1st rounder ;) ;)

We end up with possibly the best top 4 defensive group in the league, a bonefide shot at the cup this year and if we cant (most likely) resign Komi AND Bouwmeester, we gave up Higgins & prospects - I can live with that.

Unless we can negotiate and agree to a new deal before hand, it seems like a lot to me. This is why I had suggested something similar in another thread which included Stewart as well:

To Florida:

  • Chris Higgins
  • Steve Begin or Mathieu Dandenault
  • Ryan O'Byrne
  • Solid prospect like Carle, Weber or D'Agostini

To Montreal:

  • Jay Bouwmeester
  • Anthony Stewart

I'd throw in a conditional first round pick heading to Florida if Bouwmeester agrees to a contract extension with us.

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What most fail to acknowledge or recognize is that if we did make a huge deal to get Jaybo ... there is absolutely no guarentee he stays with Montreal next seaon, meaning we cost ourselves the components we traded to get him for short term gain.

We don't need Jaybo ... we a need a #4 Dman on depth.

This.

I agree with both you and anetechrist on this...It's short term "Win Now" thinking which is more often then not a recipe for disaster.

And that. :)

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No one here is jumping the gun saying that he will re-sign with us, but a few are saying that he won't. That's where I was getting at. Now if getting a top 2 defenseman for too high a price and end up underutilizing him doesn't help, I don't know what will. As for the team chemistry, if you pickup a #4 defenseman, it's just as big of a risk as others won't have their ice time. It all depends on the type of individual you get, in both cases.

Fixed. I, for one, never said simply that acquiring him wouldn't help. I took into consideration his price, and his use, which you see to not consider. At least you didn't in this comment. To make reference to opinions of people debating against you, you ought to refer to their complete opinion. Sure, Bouwmeester by himself would help. But there is more to this debate than just that, and you know full well why I'm against this trade idea.

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It just occurred to me while reading your post that it seems wierd discussing concerns of rushing a prospect we may want to bring up as a replacement for a player that we are trading away after having rushed him a tad as an 18 yr.old! :rolleyes: However,I think I'd strongly consider your deal .It sounds darned good to me!

Well seen. That's why I think this deal wouldn't need Pacioretty getting up to the big team on a third line. We don't have to rush him when there's one prospect winger who is actually better, and readier for the NHL in D'Agostini.

Doing this trade (I still need time to analyze it myself to give my opinion - hockey is on), does not make a Pacioretty promotion mandatory.

I would do:

Bouwmeester

for

Higgins

Obyrne

Webber OR Carle

Boullion or Dandy

2nd rouder 2009

If we could somehow get them to throw in Matthias then I would add a 1st rounder ;) ;)

We end up with possibly the best top 4 defensive group in the league, a bonefide shot at the cup this year and if we cant (most likely) resign Komi AND Bouwmeester, we gave up Higgins & prospects - I can live with that.

I wouldn't do this trade. Not close. I wouldn't give Higgins, and we then wouldn't have the cap space. And while giving Higgins (which I wouldn't unless I got a gun to my head), I wouldn't give away Weber.

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What most fail to acknowledge or recognize is that if we did make a huge deal to get Jaybo ... there is absolutely no guarentee he stays with Montreal next seaon, meaning we cost ourselves the components we traded to get him for short term gain.

We don't need Jaybo ... we a need a #4 Dman on depth.

This is a rather pessimistic outlook, which I find amusingly ironic given that those whom wish to ignore an allstar player saying those who want aforementioned star are pessimistic for not believing in the team we have. ;) Just as you can argue Bouwmeester may walk, I can argue he may not. This reasoning is allotted to Komisarek as well however if we have both Bouwmeester and Komisarek our chances of signing one of them vastly increases.

I agree with both you and anetechrist on this...It's short term "Win Now" thinking which is more often then not a recipe for disaster.

Why should be not have a "win now" mentality? This is not similar to any other season, this is our 100th anniversary; an event that will come about once in a lifetime. We will never again see the Habs play their 100th game and the next bench mark could arguably be considered our 200th anniversary, which not a single one of us will be alive to witness. Thus there is no greater moment then now to press for the ultimate glory because frankly speaking a moment such as winning the Stanley Cup on our 100th will never happen again.

Is a gamble worth the possibility of a historical moment, never to be forgotten? I say definitely; not to mention we are not even selling the farm.

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Fixed. I, for one, never said simply that acquiring him wouldn't help. I took into consideration his price, and his use, which you see to not consider. At least you didn't in this comment. To make reference to opinions of people debating against you, you ought to refer to their complete opinion. Sure, Bouwmeester by himself would help. But there is more to this debate than just that, and you know full well why I'm against this trade idea.

That's not fixing, that's sabotage. Underutilizing? What are you talking about? Is Markov underutilized? Is Hamrlik underutilized? What about Komisarek? He'd be paired with Hamrlik so how would he be underutilized? As for overpaying, been there, done that, you think it is, I say it's not.

mon-oeil.gif

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That's not fixing, that's sabotage. Underutilizing? What are you talking about? Is Markov underutilized? Is Hamrlik underutilized? What about Komisarek? He'd be paired with Hamrlik so how would he be underutilized? As for overpaying, been there, done that, you think it is, I say it's not.

mon-oeil.gif

Anaheim has Pronger, Niedermayer, and Beauchemin, and none of them is underutilized. :)

Detroit doesn't seem to have any problem using Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall properly.

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Anaheim has Pronger, Niedermayer, and Beauchemin, and none of them is underutilized. :)

Detroit doesn't seem to have any problem using Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, and Kronwall properly.

The only real effect may be our third pairing plays less, which is fine.

A defense of:

Markov-Komi

JayBo-Hamrlik

Gorges-Bouillion

spares: Brisebois, Dandenault

says "cup" to me.

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