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I don't want Sergei on a 3rd or 4th line anyways, I'd rather have him be on a scoring line, and theres no opening on the top 6 ATM on the Habs for him.

See, this I understand, and I'd actually speculated that he was being sent down for this exact reason: Pacioretty looks to have cracked the top six, and what's the point of someone like Sergei on a lower line?

For me, "questionable attitude" is that a player's intensity, focus and maturity are put into question, that is, there is doubt whether he's reached a level that is acceptable to help the team. It doesn't include talent, but what one does with one's talent. Martin, the person who makes that accessment is quoted below, the bold is my emphasis.

Jacques Martin semonce Sergei Kostitsyn: il ne tolérera pas la paresse : http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianp...dvlwnzHTpYbdEjw

"On veut axer notre jeu sur le contrôle de la rondelle et pour ça, il faut que les joueurs se placent en soutien au porteur de la rondelle. Ils doivent se rendre disponibles. On ne veut plus jouer comme l'an passé, quand il y avait plus d'espace entre les joueurs.

"C'est plus exigeant de jouer comme ça, mais ça donne de meilleurs résultats."

Martin a répété que l'incident du week-end avec le cadet des Kostitsyn était de la régie interne. Il a toutefois reconnu que tous les facteurs entrent en ligne de compte dans l'évaluation d'un joueur.

"L'évaluation se fait à partir de ce qui se passe sur la glace, du comportement et de l'attitude - de tout", a dit l'entraîneur.

Nowhere in what quoted is there any direct evidence that Sergei has some sort of attitude problem. It's the reporter who refers to his behavior as 'laziness' (paresse) -- Martin is simply talking about instilling a new attitude team-wide in camp. Sure, he yelled at Sergei for making mistakes in practice, but he also said (in the Gazette article) that Sergei was part of a group who had to learn. The implication is also that the current state of affairs is largely due to the previous coaching regime. Also, what exactly is meant by "tous les facteurs"? We're never told. Sounds to me like Martin is speaking generally but reporters are on a witch hunt for his comments to apply to Sergei specifically.

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he had a great camp, i cant imagine hes too happy about this
He really didn't have much of a camp in terms of play and contact compared to others as he was recovering from off-season shoulder surgery (like Chipchura). He still probably needs further rehab and conditioning while playing at a lower level. The fact that he doesn't need to clear waivers makes this decision easier.

See, this I understand, and I'd actually speculated that he was being sent down for this exact reason: Pacioretty looks to have cracked the top six, and what's the point of someone like Sergei on a lower line?

Agreed... IMO he needs to make the top six to be of most use to the Habs.

Nowhere in what quoted is there any direct evidence that Sergei has some sort of attitude problem. It's the reporter who refers to his behavior as 'laziness' (paresse) -- Martin is simply talking about instilling a new attitude team-wide in camp. Sure, he yelled at Sergei for making mistakes in practice, but he also said (in the Gazette article) that Sergei was part of a group who had to learn. The implication is also that the current state of affairs is largely due to the previous coaching regime. Also, what exactly is meant by "tous les facteurs"? We're never told. Sounds to me like Martin is speaking generally but reporters are on a witch hunt for his comments to apply to Sergei specifically.

Do we add two and two together? If the comments above (by Martin), specifically the last one highlighted, were in response to questions regarding Sergei, then "attitude" is mentioned as a factor (the way I read it)... quote: "L'évaluation se fait à partir de ce qui se passe sur la glace, du comportement et de l'attitude - de tout", a dit l'entraîneur

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The ball ...puck is in his court now. He knows what to do to get back up here with the Habs.

We all know he will be back, but the question is when? After a couple games? months?

Martin doesn't mess around, and this is why I said WAKE UP Sergei a few times already.

If the timing of SK being sent down (right before team getaway) doesn't wake this guy up...nothing will.

Still love his play and hope to see him back, but glad Martin is not letting him slide under the radar just because of his last name!

get your mind right kid!

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He really didn't have much of a camp in terms of play and contact compared to others as he was recovering from off-season shoulder surgery (like Chipchura). He still probably needs further rehab and conditioning while playing at a lower level. The fact that he doesn't need to clear waivers makes this decision easier.

Another sensible reason to send him down. The more I hear about these kinds of details, the more I'm convinced that Sergei being sent down had nothing to do with his attitude.

Do we add two and two together? If the comments above (by Martin), specifically the last one highlighted, were in response to questions regarding Sergei, then "attitude" is mentioned as a factor (the way I read it)... quote: "L'évaluation se fait à partir de ce qui se passe sur la glace, du comportement et de l'attitude - de tout", a dit l'entraîneur

The problem with the media is that they are only looking to put two and two together for certain players already designated as scapegoats. Most likely, the reporter tried to get Martin to speak on Sergei, but Martin, being the cagey veteran he is, refused to bite and talked more generally about the need for a change in attitude team-wide -- the quotation you cite doesn't single Sergei out. Speaking as an ex-journalism major, trust me, if Martin HAD said something juicier, the reporter would have printed it. ;)

I guess I just want to draw people's attention to how journalists are constantly involved in the process of shaping stories by virtue of focus, bias, editorial pressure, and a desire to write something quick that will 'play' well on a front page. Sports journalists, in particular, love stories about malcontents and will gravitate to such stories even when there isn't a prima facie case to be made that player X is a troublemaker or player Y has a bad attitude.

Why do sports journalists love to disparage the Habs' lack of size up front, when Leafs' forwards are even smaller and on average less talented? Why has virtually every Habs season preview for the past 7-8 years talked about the need for the goalie (Theodore, Huet, or Price, depending on the era) to put the team on his shoulders if we're to have any hope of making the playoffs? Because they're easy stories that recirculate the kind of cliché and surface analysis any bar-stool casual fan can identify and agree with, while congratulating himself on knowing just as much as the so-called experts. It fills up the space, it won't make waves, and in the case of non-Quebec sports media, it provides an excuse for journalists to continue being ignorant about the team.

Honestly, 70% of sports journalism consists of a bunch of lemmings reprinting each others' speculation, innuendo, and in some cases, outright lies.

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Another sensible reason to send him down. The more I hear about these kinds of details, the more I'm convinced that Sergei being sent down had nothing to do with his attitude.

The problem with the media is that they are only looking to put two and two together for certain players already designated as scapegoats. Most likely, the reporter tried to get Martin to speak on Sergei, but Martin, being the cagey veteran he is, refused to bite and talked more generally about the need for a change in attitude team-wide -- the quotation you cite doesn't single Sergei out. Speaking as an ex-journalism major, trust me, if Martin HAD said something juicier, the reporter would have printed it. ;)

I guess I just want to draw people's attention to how journalists are constantly involved in the process of shaping stories by virtue of focus, bias, editorial pressure, and a desire to write something quick that will 'play' well on a front page. Sports journalists, in particular, love stories about malcontents and will gravitate to such stories even when there isn't a prima facie case to be made that player X is a troublemaker or player Y has a bad attitude.

Why do sports journalists love to disparage the Habs' lack of size up front, when Leafs' forwards are even smaller and on average less talented? Why has virtually every Habs season preview for the past 7-8 years talked about the need for the goalie (Theodore, Huet, or Price, depending on the era) to put the team on his shoulders if we're to have any hope of making the playoffs? Because they're easy stories that recirculate the kind of cliché and surface analysis any bar-stool casual fan can identify and agree with, while congratulating himself on knowing just as much as the so-called experts. It fills up the space, it won't make waves, and in the case of non-Quebec sports media, it provides an excuse for journalists to continue being ignorant about the team.

Honestly, 70% of sports journalism consists of a bunch of lemmings reprinting each others' speculation, innuendo, and in some cases, outright lies.

I couldn't agree more with the whole post but that last line in bold absolutely made my day. The Hab following media certainly has the uncanny ability to turn fans against players by fabricating stories to meet their own agendas.

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The ball ...puck is in his court now. He knows what to do to get back up here with the Habs.

We all know he will be back, but the question is when? After a couple games? months?

Martin doesn't mess around, and this is why I said WAKE UP Sergei a few times already.

If the timing of SK being sent down (right before team getaway) doesn't wake this guy up...nothing will.

Still love his play and hope to see him back, but glad Martin is not letting him slide under the radar just because of his last name!

get your mind right kid!

Fair assessment IMO.

Another sensible reason to send him down. The more I hear about these kinds of details, the more I'm convinced that Sergei being sent down had nothing to do with his attitude.
Let's say it could have had something to do with his being sent down... as you eluded to earlier, we can't know for certain.

The problem with the media is that they are only looking to put two and two together for certain players already designated as scapegoats. Most likely, the reporter tried to get Martin to speak on Sergei, but Martin, being the cagey veteran he is, refused to bite and talked more generally about the need for a change in attitude team-wide -- the quotation you cite doesn't single Sergei out. Speaking as an ex-journalism major, trust me, if Martin HAD said something juicier, the reporter would have printed it. ;)

I guess I just want to draw people's attention to how journalists are constantly involved in the process of shaping stories by virtue of focus, bias, editorial pressure, and a desire to write something quick that will 'play' well on a front page. Sports journalists, in particular, love stories about malcontents and will gravitate to such stories even when there isn't a prima facie case to be made that player X is a troublemaker or player Y has a bad attitude.

Why do sports journalists love to disparage the Habs' lack of size up front, when Leafs' forwards are even smaller and on average less talented? Why has virtually every Habs season preview for the past 7-8 years talked about the need for the goalie (Theodore, Huet, or Price, depending on the era) to put the team on his shoulders if we're to have any hope of making the playoffs? Because they're easy stories that recirculate the kind of cliché and surface analysis any bar-stool casual fan can identify and agree with, while congratulating himself on knowing just as much as the so-called experts. It fills up the space, it won't make waves, and in the case of non-Quebec sports media, it provides an excuse for journalists to continue being ignorant about the team.

Honestly, 70% of sports journalism consists of a bunch of lemmings reprinting each others' speculation, innuendo, and in some cases, outright lies.

Yadda-yadda :lol: We can see you're a journalism major ;)

As with Pacioretty, the proof is in the pudding and the suggestion only highlights a possibility (potentially one of the reasons). There has been no direct acusation from what I've read in the media...

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Let's say it could have had something to do with his being sent down... as you eluded to earlier, we can't know for certain.

As with Pacioretty, the proof is in the pudding and the suggestion only highlights a possibility (potentially one of the reasons). There has been no direct acusation from what I've read in the media...

And I'm fine as long as we realize that we're speculating on possibilities, not analyzing facts.

Sergei could be the biggest locker-room disruption the Habs have ever seen, but right now, there simply isn't any hard evidence to support the speculation.

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The truth is for some reason he was sent down...but I don't believe that he made this team....oh he got a tap in goal in the crease but other than that he wasn't impressive...Sergei has talent but regardless a lot of talented players get cut for a whole host of reasons....I agree that we shouldn't be painting him as a player with attitude problems because it tends to mask over the greater reasons for him being demoted....however with the new team and all the new players, new focus,new system maybe Sergei didn't respond the way Gainey and Martin wanted him to and in fact this guy just flat out didn't make the team....he's presently not top-six material so where do you put him?...well you put him in Hamilton

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I haven't seen anyone present a shred of tangible evidence to back up this constantly repeated assertion that Sergei has a questionable attitude, or what 'questionable attitude' even means as a description. (not meant as a shot at you, brian, but just a general observation) Seems to me that everyone has been speculating on Sergei's character since last season, then dressing up that speculation as fact and using it to justify Martin's decision, which, for all we know, may have nothing to do with any attitude problem real or imagined.

Players get sent to Hamilton all the time. For some reason, Sergei is one player whose every move is framed by his 'character issues' in one way or another. But the cold truth is that none of us is in a position to even gauge his character, let alone assert with any confidence that the head coach is basing his personnel decisions on our perception of Sergei's character. We can't know that. Please, enough with the character assassinations.

I agree completely Weep. This could be as simple as fine tuning mechanics of Sergei's game. People who are quick to blame his attitude, need to pay less attention to the overpriced, outdated, ramblings of Don Cherry and try forming their own hockey based opinion. Talent evaluation should be based on skill, not geography.

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Another sensible reason to send him down. The more I hear about these kinds of details, the more I'm convinced that Sergei being sent down had nothing to do with his attitude.

The problem with the media is that they are only looking to put two and two together for certain players already designated as scapegoats. Most likely, the reporter tried to get Martin to speak on Sergei, but Martin, being the cagey veteran he is, refused to bite and talked more generally about the need for a change in attitude team-wide -- the quotation you cite doesn't single Sergei out. Speaking as an ex-journalism major, trust me, if Martin HAD said something juicier, the reporter would have printed it. ;)

I guess I just want to draw people's attention to how journalists are constantly involved in the process of shaping stories by virtue of focus, bias, editorial pressure, and a desire to write something quick that will 'play' well on a front page. Sports journalists, in particular, love stories about malcontents and will gravitate to such stories even when there isn't a prima facie case to be made that player X is a troublemaker or player Y has a bad attitude.

Why do sports journalists love to disparage the Habs' lack of size up front, when Leafs' forwards are even smaller and on average less talented? Why has virtually every Habs season preview for the past 7-8 years talked about the need for the goalie (Theodore, Huet, or Price, depending on the era) to put the team on his shoulders if we're to have any hope of making the playoffs? Because they're easy stories that recirculate the kind of cliché and surface analysis any bar-stool casual fan can identify and agree with, while congratulating himself on knowing just as much as the so-called experts. It fills up the space, it won't make waves, and in the case of non-Quebec sports media, it provides an excuse for journalists to continue being ignorant about the team.

Honestly, 70% of sports journalism consists of a bunch of lemmings reprinting each others' speculation, innuendo, and in some cases, outright lies.

+100

I wish more sports fan were like you.

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i'm pretty surprised and disappointed with this decision, especially considering i've seen other guys have a worse camp... :mellow:

Bigs, I initially felt the same way as you do, but in some part due to posts by brianw6 and Moneypuck, I've reconsidered my position.

  1. Sergei had a short camp, due to injury. Therefore, Martin didn't have enough time to arrive at a fair evaluation.
  2. We still don't know whether he's at 100% following rehab on his injury.
  3. We have two wingers who have performed fairly well at training camp (Pacioretty, D'Agostini).
  4. Sergei doesn't need to clear waivers to be sent down.
  5. It's better for Sergei to get big top-six minutes in Hamilton than small third-line minutes in Montreal.

I have little doubt that once Sergei is fully healthy, he'll shine in Hamilton, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see him back with the CH in a month or two.

+100

I wish more sports fan were like you.

You're very kind. Thank you. :)

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Bigs, I initially felt the same way as you do, but in some part due to posts by brianw6 and Moneypuck, I've reconsidered my position.

  1. Sergei had a short camp, due to injury. Therefore, Martin didn't have enough time to arrive at a fair evaluation.
  2. We still don't know whether he's at 100% following rehab on his injury.
  3. We have two wingers who have performed fairly well at training camp (Pacioretty, D'Agostini).
  4. Sergei doesn't need to clear waivers to be sent down.
  5. It's better for Sergei to get big top-six minutes in Hamilton than small third-line minutes in Montreal.

I have little doubt that once Sergei is fully healthy, he'll shine in Hamilton, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see him back with the CH in a month or two.

i agree with all the reasons mentioned in your post and previous ones.

i know i shouldn't let the media get to me, but because none of those reasons were mentioned in martin's press conference i'm disappointed that once again the media can run rampant on sergei's supposed attitude problem. i'm also disappointed that he won't benefit from a team building retreat (especially if the bulldogs are still in scotland).

i fully expect we'll see him busting his butt in hamilton and back with the big club soon though. if he has to ease his way into the season because of his shoulder so be it. i would just prefer, at this point, to see sergei crashing the net than lats talk about it and not do it. :P

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I gotta agree that the media does need something to keep the ink flowing. But is it necessary to get into semantic arguments about what each word means? This is a hockey forum, not a philosophy one.

There is no evidence he doesn't have an attitude problem. The point I made in highlighting that Martin quotation is that attitude is part of his evaluation of a player. Thus it is the realm of possibility that Sergei was sent down because of it especially considering that his talent is plain to see.

The fact that Sergei is not included in the team retreat when other injured and marginal players likely to be cut are, suggests that Sergei may be lacking something which Martin deems necessary in his evaluation of a player. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the coach rather than the player here. Otherwise, I'd be pretty critical of Martin right now for isolating Sergei in this manner.

I see a case of confirmation bias on both sides here. I think he should be given some leeway to adjust. Whether that is in the NHL or the AHL is up to the coach, and he has more evidence than anyone here, including the media.

I like Sergei, and think he can help the team. He's still young and can learn whatever he needs to if he's receptive.

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I gotta agree that the media does need something to keep the ink flowing. But is it necessary to get into semantic arguments about what each word means? This is a hockey forum, not a philosophy one.

There is no evidence he doesn't have an attitude problem. The point I made in highlighting that Martin quotation is that attitude is part of his evaluation of a player. Thus it is the realm of possibility that Sergei was sent down because of it especially considering that his talent is plain to see.

The fact that Sergei is not included in the team retreat when other injured and marginal players likely to be cut are, suggests that Sergei may be lacking something which Martin deems necessary in his evaluation of a player. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the coach rather than the player here. Otherwise, I'd be pretty critical of Martin right now for isolating Sergei in this manner.

I see a case of confirmation bias on both sides here. I think he should be given some leeway to adjust. Whether that is in the NHL or the AHL is up to the coach, and he has more evidence than anyone here, including the media.

I like Sergei, and think he can help the team. He's still young and can learn whatever he needs to if he's receptive.

+1 well stated :)

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I'm pretty sure this is the beginning of the end for Sergei Kostitsyn in Montreal. I like the kid, just no room for him.

I agree, in my opinion we should package either or both brothers and Pleks to get a real 2nd line center. Its quite possible he will bounce back if like Boone said, he extracts his head from his anal orifice. The lazy way the Habs played last year is a thing of the past.

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*DEEP BREATH* :lol::D

And cue the "Sergei is never going to make Montreal and is going to leave for Russia conversations!"

Sergei will be fine. He needs to now focus on tearing up the AHL, proving he has what it takes to be a top-6 talent in the NHL. I believe once he does that. Once he shows some real offensive leadership in Hamilton... Then we can expect him to be in Montreal.

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