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Between the pipes 2011-12


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Any second thoughts here gentleman???

Our depth was one of the best in he NHL/AHL a few years ago - now???

Still like Price but still not convinced he can live up to the hype - whether that is because he isn't mentally capable of it or because we ruined him by playing him too much too soon - who knows? I know it is not his fault - it is the team in front of him but he aint exactly stealing anything for us - and tonight was typical again - first goal caught wandering, second - lost and blaming everyone else.

In addition in the AHL - the Bulldogs current backup (two games and counting) is a local goaltending instructor/men's league goalie - our #1 is the largely untested and inconsistent Robert Mayer (who to be fair is playing awesome at the moment) - meanwhile Desjardins is leading the league for the second year since he left us and he and Yann Danis are two thirds of one of this years AHL all star team. Not to mention the Bulldogs two #1 goalies from last season, MacIntyre and Sanford have both had some NHL games with some success.

and for the piece de resistance please tell me again how the Halak for Eller and Schultz was a good trade.....

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Guest habs1952

Any second thoughts here gentleman???

Our depth was one of the best in he NHL/AHL a few years ago - now???

Still like Price but still not convinced he can live up to the hype - whether that is because he isn't mentally capable of it or because we ruined him by playing him too much too soon - who knows? I know it is not his fault - it is the team in front of him but he aint exactly stealing anything for us - and tonight was typical again - first goal caught wandering, second - lost and blaming everyone else.

First goal was a fluke and Gorges deflected the puck into his own net for the Bruins second goal. And your blaming Price?

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First goal was a fluke and Gorges deflected the puck into his own net for the Bruins second goal. And your blaming Price?

lol, he's still mad about losing Halak. No surprise he's reentering the debate now. There's a few others who should be reappearing shortly as well. The team is AWFUL, right now. The only problem with Price is that he may prevent us from getting the actual top 3 pick we deserve.

As for organizational depth, it's largely irrelevant at the goalie position. Depth goalies are SO easy to find. We have a 24 year old work horse who is very highly regarded by everyone. The rest is easy. Look at St. Louis, they found their allstar goalie off the scrap heap this summer.

and for the piece de resistance please tell me again how the Halak for Eller and Schultz was a good trade.....

Halak makes almost 4 million and he's been the 2nd best goalie this year on a stacked defensive team. Eller is an actual serviceable NHLer with some ceiling.

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You are very right I am - and that isn't downplaying Price's talent and ability - but two years on and it is the same post after the same post as back in the day

Habs are crap, we've got no D - If only Price had a team in front of him - I've yet to see anything like the playoff run we had with Halak and am bitter that we screwed up the season we finished first in the East.

Anyway - part of my post last night didn't take - I am also bitter because we have totally gutted our depth at the position of goal - both in the NHL and the AHL and IMO got virtually nothing for it. - the Bulldogs current backup (two games and counting) is a local goaltending instructor/men's league goalie - our #1 (Mayer for now) is largely untested and inconsistent (who to be fair is playing awesome at the moment) - meanwhile Desjardins is leading the league for the second year since he left us and he and Yann Danis are two thirds of one of this years AHL all star team. Not to mention the Bulldogs two #1 goalies from last season, MacIntyre and Sanford have both had some NHL games this season with some success. Think back - we had Price, Halak, Desjardins, Auld(?) and youngsters like Mayer, Delmas, Ramo. The majority of our prospects in the last ten years or so have gone on to at least spot duty in the NHL or more - the others like Desjardins have been consistently at the top of the AHL.

Anyway - back to my tv in the basement to keep cheering for my team and hoping they step up their play and make some smarter moves for their future.

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As Roy said, it doesn't really matter. All those AHL guys would be worth a 7th round pick or something, Desjardins was flipped for Ramo who was a part of the Cammalleri deal yesterday, I don't see the issue. Goalies are everywhere, there's goalies like Halak all over the league, there will always be a good depth goalie UFA available or a 4th round pick away. We have Carey Price, those kind of guys are limited, maybe 5 of them in the entire world, and we have one of them. I don't really mind about the depth in goal past him to be frank, because he plays 70+ games and we can find a good backup anywhere.

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Time for Budaj to get a few more games. I think he stands a better chance of leading us to the promised land than Price. The promised land being a top 2 pick this season. I'd give Budaj one game on three from now on.

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You are very right I am - and that isn't downplaying Price's talent and ability - but two years on and it is the same post after the same post as back in the day

Habs are crap, we've got no D - If only Price had a team in front of him - I've yet to see anything like the playoff run we had with Halak and am bitter that we screwed up the season we finished first in the East.

Well let's be honest, this is the worst team we've had in a decade and I'd be willing to bet you anything that wouldn't change with Halak. Do you really believe things would be differently? I mean, Price on St. Louis would be pretty different. Brian Elliott has a .937 SV% there.

I agree, we haven't had a run like we did with Halak but Halak's never had a full season like Price did last year. Anyway, Halak has yet to recapture that level of performance.

I wouldn't say we screwed up the season we finished 1st, either. That team was lucky in terms of injuries and performance. Kovalev couldn't sustain it, several of the players fell off - in Montreal and elsewhere - and we relied heavily on strong goaltending from a journeyman and a 20 year old. Last year we had our second best regular season in 15 years, thanks to Carey in large part.

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Anyway - part of my post last night didn't take - I am also bitter because we have totally gutted our depth at the position of goal - both in the NHL and the AHL and IMO got virtually nothing for it. - the Bulldogs current backup (two games and counting) is a local goaltending instructor/men's league goalie - our #1 (Mayer for now) is largely untested and inconsistent (who to be fair is playing awesome at the moment) - meanwhile Desjardins is leading the league for the second year since he left us and he and Yann Danis are two thirds of one of this years AHL all star team. Not to mention the Bulldogs two #1 goalies from last season, MacIntyre and Sanford have both had some NHL games this season with some success. Think back - we had Price, Halak, Desjardins, Auld(?) and youngsters like Mayer, Delmas, Ramo. The majority of our prospects in the last ten years or so have gone on to at least spot duty in the NHL or more - the others like Desjardins have been consistently at the top of the AHL.

But that's all AHL depth and like I said, it's irrelevant. All I heard about Desjardins was how big of a mistake it was to let him go and how Guy Boucher knew how good he was and wouldn't let him continue to waste away in the AHL. He couldn't even crack Tampa and they have major goaltending problems. I'm not even sure what NHL team owns his rights anymore? We could sign him next offseason. That's the point. Those guys are readily available every year.

When you have a 70 game workhorse, goaltending depth is the least of your concerns and to be honest, people who are fringe are less willing to come because the money is the same everywhere except there's a giant, 24 year old roadblock in Montreal.

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Guest habs1952

Time for Budaj to get a few more games. I think he stands a better chance of leading us to the promised land than Price. The promised land being a top 2 pick this season. I'd give Budaj one game on three from now on.

Just what I was thinking but with the Habs luck this year I can see Budaj playing stellar and robbing us of some much needed losses. :lol:

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- meanwhile Desjardins is leading the league for the second year since he left us and he and Yann Danis are two thirds of one of this years AHL all star team.

And neither one of them can crack an NHL team

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And neither one of them can crack an NHL team

Not to mention that the general value of goaltenders, on a grand scale, is pretty minimal these days. A top minor-league goaltender will basically fetch you no return at the NHL level. Heck, even mid-range NHL goalies aren't fetching much on the market in recent years.

So it's not a matter of having gutted our talent at the position and received nothing, it's just a result of natural turnover. The landscape has changed; development systems are FAR better for goalies than they were 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago and as a result you're ultimately seeing smaller and smaller gaps in talent level and ability. The game has become more of a 'science'. Even simply by watching the way goalies play and move now compared to 10-15 years ago, the stark differences in the game are easy to see.

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I don't think drafting a goalie so high and building a team around that goalie is such a good idea. Well, it certainly hasn't worked this time, for whatever reason

I'd disagree. We've actually probably done a lot better with Carey than we would have with an average goalie. I'll give you a couple of examples to counter your statement:

1. Look at how many issues Philly has had over the past few years without a good #1 goalie.

2. Look at the NYI, who drafted Tavares 1st overall, but don't have a single goalie whose done anything good... they've been basement-feeders for years.

The problem for us is that teams like the Pens, Avalanche, Hawks, etc. finished poorly and got top picks for several years, not just one. That's how they built around young stars. We really only had Carey as a top 5 pick, and in other years, we've been drafting in the 15-25 range. If we had 3 consecutive years of top 3 picks, we'd probably have better support for Carey, but it isn't necessary to tank for that long in my opinion. I think we simply say that goaltending is a strength, and we need to work on getting a top-line scorer and a shutdown D man to help him out. But I don't think we'd be any better off if we had chosen Kopitar instead of Price, for example.

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I don't think drafting a goalie so high and building a team around that goalie is such a good idea. Well, it certainly hasn't worked this time, for whatever reason

It's funny because I half agree with you and half disagree with you. Drafting a goalie high and building a team around a goalie is NOT a great idea, goalies are WAY too volatile at 18 to be picking in the top 15 IMO, never mind top 5. Where I disagree is that Carey is one of the few who's actually worked out. His biggest edge is that he's given us mostly high end goaltending from ages 20-24, at a time when most goalies are in the minors. Those were also his cheap contract years. He's given us huge value and we're not even in the prime of his career yet.

Like I said, the pick in isolation has definitely worked out. Our failures have been elsewhere. Like Ted said, picking Tavares wasn't a failure because the Islanders have continued to struggle.

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I'd disagree. We've actually probably done a lot better with Carey than we would have with an average goalie. I'll give you a couple of examples to counter your statement:

1. Look at how many issues Philly has had over the past few years without a good #1 goalie.

2. Look at the NYI, who drafted Tavares 1st overall, but don't have a single goalie whose done anything good... they've been basement-feeders for years.

The problem for us is that teams like the Pens, Avalanche, Hawks, etc. finished poorly and got top picks for several years, not just one. That's how they built around young stars. We really only had Carey as a top 5 pick, and in other years, we've been drafting in the 15-25 range. If we had 3 consecutive years of top 3 picks, we'd probably have better support for Carey, but it isn't necessary to tank for that long in my opinion. I think we simply say that goaltending is a strength, and we need to work on getting a top-line scorer and a shutdown D man to help him out. But I don't think we'd be any better off if we had chosen Kopitar instead of Price, for example.

I disagree that tanking 3 years in a roll, and drafting high top-5 those years, is the only way to succeed. You like a player at the top-5 and feel he is what your team needs, then trade up and take him. Not easy off course, but not undoable either. Secondly there are more than one examples of top-5 picks, that never played beyond expectations, and lower round picks that turned out to be stars. It all comes down to me, that decent scouting and management are the major keys, in any franshise's success.

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I disagree that tanking 3 years in a roll, and drafting high top-5 those years, is the only way to succeed. You like a player at the top-5 and feel he is what your team needs, then trade up and take him. Not easy off course, but not undoable either. Secondly there are more than one examples of top-5 picks, that never played beyond expectations, and lower round picks that turned out to be stars. It all comes down to me, that decent scouting and management are the major keys, in any franshise's success.

I never said I thought we had to tank 3 years in a row. In fact, my comment was that I didn't think it was necessary to tank for 3 years (go back and read the post and you'll see!). So I think we are actually agreed about that point.

All I was saying was that just because the team hasn't fared well this season, it doesn't mean that Price was a bad choice. In fact, he ended up being a great choice at #5, and I don't think there are other players we could have selected at that position who would make us any better. My point about the 3 years of high picks was only that it would be easier to build more support around Price that way and that Col, Chi, and Pit did not build Cup winners in recent years based on the success of drafting one player but rather by benefiting from multiple top picks. If fleury did not have Crosby and Malkin or if Toews did not have Kane or Keith, would those players have won Cups? The chances would have been less likely. Much less likely. My example of the Islanders was to show that the converse is not necessarily true though either - that having high draft picks does not guarantee success.

I fully agree with you that there are multiple ways to build a winner. But I also believe that being bad enough for several years and getting those high draft picks in close succession, if handled correctly by the GM, gives a team a significant chance at building a core of players around the same age who can compete for multiple Cups. In our case, we have not had a recent string of bad enough seasons to garner these types of choices and even the #5 pick we used on Carey was because we moved up in the lottery. So I don't think it's fair to say that Price was a bad choice when he's playing on a team that, for the past several years, has been built around declining, under-sized free agent pick-ups and second-tier draft talent. That is not to say the likes of Subban, Eller, Pacman, etc. aren't good players, but there are fewer of this type of player in our system than what Pit, Chi, or now Edm has and there certainly aren't the high-end superstars on our squad (outside of Carey himself) that you'll find in those other cities.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well let's be honest, this is the worst team we've had in a decade and I'd be willing to bet you anything that wouldn't change with Halak. Do you really believe things would be differently? I mean, Price on St. Louis would be pretty different. Brian Elliott has a .937 SV% there.

I agree, we haven't had a run like we did with Halak but Halak's never had a full season like Price did last year. Anyway, Halak has yet to recapture that level of performance.

I wouldn't say we screwed up the season we finished 1st, either. That team was lucky in terms of injuries and performance. Kovalev couldn't sustain it, several of the players fell off - in Montreal and elsewhere - and we relied heavily on strong goaltending from a journeyman and a 20 year old. Last year we had our second best regular season in 15 years, thanks to Carey in large part.

only cause Montreal did not let him have a full season or playoff!!!!

C'mon - I was right back then, most of the other older posters were wrong - we played Price into the ground that year when we actually had a chance - all you guys said it would pay off in the future -'Price HAD to play at the NHL level right away in order to be the next Roy or Dryden or whatever' - Price was not ready then, he wasn't needed and that became painfully obvious the next year when Halak took us deep into the playoffs - anyone who watched Hamilton could have told you that would happen - that was our moment but we wasted it - Price has turned out just fine - we all knew he would - but as I said incessantly in those days - we had TWO elite goalies - one of which who was better placed to steal some games AT THAT POINT - we didn't let him do that at the right time and then the next season - against all odds he nearly did = and then we traded him for nothing.

You had your vision of the future - it hasn't worked out has it??? You were so scathing of having a tandem - looks good in St louis to me, worked pretty good here in Montreal - we should have drafted a D-man when we drafted Price - but we did not because he was the best option at the time - we didn't need another goalie, we didn't expect Halak to be as good as he was - but hey when you got lemons - you make lemonade - Two great goalies - use them both and win or wait until you can get great value for one of them in a trade.

It isn't all about the goalies - but that is part of it and it is symptomatic of what is wrong in all areas of the team!

Go ahead and quote stats or whatever - but you were wrong!

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only cause Montreal did not let him have a full season or playoff!!!!

Is that why? St. Louis did last year and he struggled, especially during the dog days of the season, maybe he's better not carrying the load but in more of a platoon. Not every goalie is capable of taking that load and performing at a high level. It's what separates the greats from the goods.

C'mon - I was right back then, most of the other older posters were wrong - we played Price into the ground that year when we actually had a chance - all you guys said it would pay off in the future -'Price HAD to play at the NHL level right away in order to be the next Roy or Dryden or whatever' - Price was not ready then, he wasn't needed and that became painfully obvious the next year when Halak took us deep into the playoffs - anyone who watched Hamilton could have told you that would happen - that was our moment but we wasted it - Price has turned out just fine - we all knew he would - but as I said incessantly in those days - we had TWO elite goalies - one of which who was better placed to steal some games AT THAT POINT - we didn't let him do that at the right time and then the next season - against all odds he nearly did = and then we traded him for nothing.

So basically, your argument is that because Halak had a great stretch run 2 years after, he could have at that point? Halak was just as unproven as Price was, Price at least had playoff experience somewhere (and championship experience) and anyway, they did give Halak a playoff start after Carey struggled and Halak looked shaken and just OK, just as Carey had against Philly. His play against Boston was fine, .920 SV%, 2 shutouts, it was just the Philly series where he was awful. Halak got game 4, we were only down 2-1, he had a chance to turn it around and he just wasn't very good. Not even the fact that he had a bad SV% or anything, his puck play just looked shaky all game.

You say things like anyone who followed Hamilton would have told you that but it's just wrong, the Canadiens brass follows Hamilton, extremely closely lol and they didn't seem to think that.

I just don't see how saying a more developed, older Halak on a different team with a different roster would have had similar results 2 years prior with what? 20 career NHL games under his belt, would have done better.

We not only got bad goaltending against Philly in 2008, we stopped scoring. Actually sounds pretty similar to 2010 against Philly, Halak struggled and we stopped scoring. It's just a silly argument.

Also, if you honestly think Lars Eller is "nothing", you're probably too busy watching Hamilton games to actually watch a significant number of Habs games. He's very good and he's got legitimate potential. Big, skilled, excellent puck possession, smart at both ends. Right now he's a good 3rd line center, he will be more. The question is will he score enough to be a high end offensive player or will he be a big, strong shutdown center who can contribute offensively?

Either way, he was a top 15 pick and is an NHLer, hardly "nothing". Look at the goaltending market, other than 1 outlier trade the market hasn't really given much. Even more proven guys like Luongo have been under sold. Yes, by all accounts we probably would have gotten more for Price in a trade but we wanted to keep him so it was never a decision. Apparently the organization didn't really consider moving him, they had decided they were keeping him so it's moot.

You had your vision of the future - it hasn't worked out has it??? You were so scathing of having a tandem - looks good in St louis to me, worked pretty good here in Montreal - we should have drafted a D-man when we drafted Price - but we did not because he was the best option at the time - we didn't need another goalie, we didn't expect Halak to be as good as he was - but hey when you got lemons - you make lemonade - Two great goalies - use them both and win or wait until you can get great value for one of them in a trade.

It isn't all about the goalies - but that is part of it and it is symptomatic of what is wrong in all areas of the team!

Go ahead and quote stats or whatever - but you were wrong!

The Halak trade has worked out, I think that's general consensus and anyway, I wasn't scathing of having a tandem, I just felt Halak had played over his head, his value was at it's highest and he and Price would be too expensive together. I liked the trade then and I like it even more now.

As for St. Louis, Elliott is making peanuts and he's outplaying Halkak. I mean, yeah, if Halak were willing to take a few hundred grand and give us a .940 SV%, I would have been in favor of a tandem.

Look, you can reappear on the forum after disappearing all of last year while Halak was struggling and try and hash out some silly case that you were right - when you clearly aren't watching a ton of games but no, you were flat out wrong on that one. Almost as wrong as you were when you cried and cried about the Habs giving Price the job in Hamilton for the playoffs. The organization has done a lot of DUMB things and thankfully, that wasn't one of them. Halak got a big-ish contract, came back and had a far inferior season than the year before, how does that increase the odds of getting "great value for him"? Does anyone REALLY think he'd have anything but similar numbers on this roster? He's playing behind the best defensive team in the league, padding his numbers under Hitchcock and getting outplayed by a goalie they got off the scrap heap and for some reason you're rehashing this debate? Yes, I could post stats about shot quality and that kind of thing but it's not even necessary because it's not really a debate anymore. I'll let St. Louis fans try and fine a reason to justify Halak starting games over Elliott.

Halak is a good goalie, he can get hot and play great. I wish him the best. Basically everyone agrees we kept the right goalie and considering we were trading an unsigned goalie coming off the only pro season in his life where he actually played 45-50 games, we did well.

I'd like to know what you expected to get though? If St. Louis traded Halak today, what exactly do you think they'd get in return?

I think this quote from Osgood pretty much sums it up when it comes to Carey, although he probably hasn't seen as many Bulldogs games as you.

“Let’s be honest,” Detroit Red Wings goaltender Chris Osgood said. “He’s one of the best goalies in the league. I mean, who else would they want to have in net? Even when Halak was there. …”

Osgood paused.

“There’s a reason they kept Carey Price, put it that way,” Osgood continued. “And everybody knows why.”

Just to be clear, why is that?

“Why?” Osgood said. “Because he’s an all-star goalie. He’s 23. To me, in the long run, when it’s all said and done, he’ll be a superstar player. I’m not so sure Halak will be.”

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The goaltending duo for the Habs is Price and Budai,,, not Price and Halak. Please remember that when posting in this thread.

Halak has his own thread in "Around the League". I'll agree with the posters above. This debate has been beaten to death and caused numerous headaches in the past. Let's not revisit those problems. Thank You

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