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2012-13 State Of The Habs


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Guest Regis2

Montreal was 11th against in goals last season...but we're going to allow a lot of goals this year with Emelin, Subban and Diaz all having an extra year of experience and Markov potentially being healthy? How does that make sense?

Extra year of experience or not it's still a relatively weak D and no one can predict how Markov will do next yr .

He's pretty much missed 2 1/2 yrs of hockey

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Montreal was 11th against in goals last season...but we're going to allow a lot of goals this year with Emelin, Subban and Diaz all having an extra year of experience and Markov potentially being healthy? How does that make sense?

There's no triggerman in the mould of Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski.

It's likely one of the shortest D in the league. No one taller than 6'2". We've lost 6'2" Hamrlik, 6'4" Mara, 6'7" Gill, 6'4" Komisarek, and 6'4" Sourray in recent history. We keep getting smaller.

Our top-4 is Subban-Gorges / Markov-Emelin. Markov will need time to recover mentally, he's going to be psychologically rusty. Emelin is more of a bottom pairing D. Once one of those guys gets injured, our defense is going to become even porous.

Our only first class shutdown pair is Subban-Gorges. We're going to have to use them on the PK and against the other team's top lines. That is a misuse of Subban's energies.

The third pairing of Kaberle-Bouillon is going to have to have babied minutes. It's defensively terrible at best.

The spares are Diaz, Weber, and St-Denis. There's nobody with anything special to sub in to tactical games. No John Scott or Marc-Andre Bergeron type player who can be counted on to do at least one thing well.

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In summary, the problem with the defense is that it can't score goals, it's asking Price to play God, and it's going to be physically dominated.

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There's no triggerman in the mould of Sourray / Streit / Schneider / Bergeron / Wisniewski.

It's likely one of the shortest D in the league. No one taller than 6'2". We've lost 6'2" Hamrlik, 6'4" Mara, 6'7" Gill, 6'4" Komisarek, and 6'4" Sourray in recent history. We keep getting smaller.

Our top-4 is Subban-Gorges / Markov-Emelin. Markov will need time to recover mentally, he's going to be psychologically rusty. Emelin is more of a bottom pairing D. Once one of those guys gets injured, our defense is going to become even porous.

Our only first class shutdown pair is Subban-Gorges. We're going to have to use them on the PK and against the other team's top lines. That is a misuse of Subban's energies.

The third pairing of Kaberle-Bouillon is going to have to have babied minutes. It's defensively terrible at best.

The spares are Diaz, Weber, and St-Denis. There's nobody with anything special to sub in to tactical games. No John Scott or Marc-Andre Bergeron type player who can be counted on to do at least one thing well.

****************

In summary, the problem with the defense is that it can't score goals, it's asking Price to play God, and it's going to be physically dominated.

I really don't see how you can claim Emelin is nothing more than a bottom pairing d-man after one season in the NHL. That's unbelievably confusing to me, when you consider the assets that he brings to the table and the fact that he's entering what could be a 4-6 year prime.

The defence may be small but it is also a defence that is VERY good at moving the puck. Gorges, Subban, Boullion and Emelin are all pretty tough (although some would argue based on their definition of "tough" d-men and all play the puck well as well. There will be internal competition as well.

And the things I said about Emelin could be said about Diaz too, maybe he doesn't have that rare physical side to his game like Emelin does, but he does a lot of things well and it's not out of the realm of possibilities that he, as a right hand shooting smart offensive d-man could play some on the PP.

Also Weber could take that step we've all been hoping for for a couple of years, he's shown glimpses of it.

You can look at any situation and people will have 2 different opinions, there are a lot of positives the Montreal defence has and when Gorges and Subban are probably going to be playing the most minutes, and Emelin will get lots of minutes as well. Sure they don't have a bruising defence like Boston but I really like the way all their guys can move it up the ice.

As for not having a special guy like MAB, the Habs have a guy like that in Weber...a very solid offensive, smaller d-man who can't crack the top 6 more oft than not. Weber is way younger.

John Scott is just a waste of one of the 50 roster spots and it amazes me he ever gets mentioned as a beneficial player. It's one thing with a goon forward on the 4th line who gets 6 minutes a game...but a d-man? How is limiting yourself to 5 d-men so that one guy can go out and (NOT) intimidate other players for 5 minutes a night and take more than that in PIM. This idea that having a guy like John Scott in the line up is a deterrence against Lucic is just asinine and if anything it has the potential to cost you chances at Power plays.

Markov might be rusty, but if he can rebound and be a capable top 4 d-man who can play on the PP than that is huge, and there's really just not any reason to believe he can't do that, let alone go back to being a top pairing guy. Kaberle, in the right situation, and with a deeper team, will become a big asset as well. Even if he's overpaid a bit (barely) and somewhat redundant (If Diaz or Weber steps up they'll move Kaberle and LOL to anyone who thinks he doesn't have trade value) he's still a hell of an offensive PMD.

Gorges-Subban

Markov-Emelin

Kaberle-Bouillon/Diaz.

You can say it's bad all you want, but I believe that will be a good defence if they can stay healthy and a lot of offence can be provided out of capable/high end moving the puck up the ice from the back end.

Those guys you mention the Habs losing Hamrlik, Mara, Souray, Komisarek and Gill were also at times all pretty brutal in the defensive zone and prone to awful giveaways. So what if they are "tougher" in front of the net if they're giving the puck away often. Now in Hamrlik's case it was only when they played him like a number 1 pairing d-man that he looked poor, and Gill knew his limits and played generally the smart simple game...but there's great potential for this teams defence to help the offence provide much more offensive pressure.

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KeepsItreal, you're right, after one season it's hard to say that guys like Emelin and Diaz won't be top pairing dman is a lil premature. We may not have their wualifications as dmen at the NHL level, but we do have their qualifications in the Euro leagues, which we all know is slower, has bigger ice surfaces and bellow the NHL in terms of skill. Both did well in their Euro leagues, i still don't remember reading or hearing that they were logging huge minutes prior to coming to the NHL.

I too am excited about the future of our blueline. We may not have a crushing/hulking blueline, we do have guys who can take hits and dish them out. Gorges may be small-ish, but he's like a Timex watch... Takes a licking but keeps on ticking. I don't mind PK throwing the body, but I'd rather a player of his caliber stick to what he's payed to do, top pairing dman, with PP time. We need him out on the ice killing a penalty or trying to score on the PP. having him in the box serving penalties is counter productive imho. He's much more dangerous on the ice.

I'm actually more excited about the kids we have coming up through the ranks. Tinordi, beaulieu and Ellis (Ellis is the wildcard).

In a few years if Emelin and Diaz stick around, we should have a lot of depth.

I just don't weber being any better than what we've seen. He's had a lot of time to prove himself, much more than Diaz and Emelin. Still, he spent a lot of time in the pressbox. The kid has a shot, but he doesn't use it. His defensive game is severely lacking as well. So if he has any hope of remaining a dman, he's going to have to prove himself and fast.

really don't see him with our habs beyond this season.

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KeepsItreal, you're right, after one season it's hard to say that guys like Emelin and Diaz won't be top pairing dman is a lil premature. We may not have their wualifications as dmen at the NHL level, but we do have their qualifications in the Euro leagues, which we all know is slower, has bigger ice surfaces and bellow the NHL in terms of skill. Both did well in their Euro leagues, i still don't remember reading or hearing that they were logging huge minutes prior to coming to the NHL.

I too am excited about the future of our blueline. We may not have a crushing/hulking blueline, we do have guys who can take hits and dish them out. Gorges may be small-ish, but he's like a Timex watch... Takes a licking but keeps on ticking. I don't mind PK throwing the body, but I'd rather a player of his caliber stick to what he's payed to do, top pairing dman, with PP time. We need him out on the ice killing a penalty or trying to score on the PP. having him in the box serving penalties is counter productive imho. He's much more dangerous on the ice.

I'm actually more excited about the kids we have coming up through the ranks. Tinordi, beaulieu and Ellis (Ellis is the wildcard).

In a few years if Emelin and Diaz stick around, we should have a lot of depth.

I just don't weber being any better than what we've seen. He's had a lot of time to prove himself, much more than Diaz and Emelin. Still, he spent a lot of time in the pressbox. The kid has a shot, but he doesn't use it. His defensive game is severely lacking as well. So if he has any hope of remaining a dman, he's going to have to prove himself and fast.

really don't see him with our habs beyond this season.

Diaz put up pretty big offensive numbers the last 2 years in the Swiss League and Emelin I believe must have been getting pretty big minutes his last season in the KHL at the very least. He was also a beast in the playoffs in his 2nd last year, putting up 13 points in 22 games, again indicating he was getting big minutes.

Now I'm not saying these guys are top pairing guys, but they certainly have the potential to be top 4 guys, Emelin in particular I feel could be used in a shutdown role against other teams top lines, while Diaz I feel also could progress to that, he could also be a bottom pairing ES guy who can play on the PP as well.

As for Weber, it's just too soon for me to write him off, I know he's had a few years but for a smaller guy with those offensive capabilities it's to be expected that it takes him some time to adapt to the NHL. Whether he will prove himself to be a capable every night d-man or not remains to be seen, and being pessimistic on that accord is somewhat reasonable I suppose...but I won't make any declarations on him until he is AT LEAST 25 years old...with the way the Habs' defence is put together and the guys in the wings I think it's possible he could be on the way out....but I hope not.

Also, love that Tinordi, Beaulieu and Ellis are potential guys in a year or two, but we also can't forget about Dietz, Thrower, Pateryn (who'll be in the AHL this year as well and doesn't get mentioned much as a future NHL'er) and Bennett. Pretty good makings of a future on defence IMO. Brendon Nash could also still potentially have an NHL career, AND (as of now) the Habs have 3 2nd rounders next year, I'd be shocked if the Habs, provided they have at least 4 top 60 picks next draft, didn't add at least 2 more very intriguing defensive prospects.

But that's all of course looking into the future, for this upcoming season if a couple things go the Habs' way there's no reason why they can't contend for the division title, and if they face a bit of turmoil through the season there's no reason they can't be in the playoff race still. Does that mean there's no way they won't finish in the bottom 5 or bottom 10 next year? Hell no, there's nothing close to absolutes in hockey over an entire season.

All I know is that I'm very excited to see how next season goes.

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I don't think you necessarily have to have size to play big. Subban, Emelin, and Bouillon are actually all examples of guys who use their size well, and frankly, I'd rather have those three guys than Gill and O'Byrne, even if the latter add size. Yes, I'd love to have big guys who play big, but it's more important to me to have guys who hit and play tough. What I'm less sure about is carrying several guys like kaberle, Diaz, and Weber, all of whom would be fine in isolation but who don't add very much outside of their offensive skill. It's hard to hide all of those guys on the same roster, especially with a non-physical player like markov also here. It's the reason I would have overpaid to get Suter, as it's extremely hard to find guys who have size, skill, toughness, and the ability to play big minutes all at once. I think at this point, the team needs to cut its ties with Weber, who really doesn't have a future here with the new crop of D men coming up, and Subban/Gorges/Emelin hopefully here long-term.

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I don't think you necessarily have to have size to play big. Subban, Emelin, and Bouillon are actually all examples of guys who use their size well, and frankly, I'd rather have those three guys than Gill and O'Byrne, even if the latter add size. Yes, I'd love to have big guys who play big, but it's more important to me to have guys who hit and play tough. What I'm less sure about is carrying several guys like kaberle, Diaz, and Weber, all of whom would be fine in isolation but who don't add very much outside of their offensive skill. It's hard to hide all of those guys on the same roster, especially with a non-physical player like markov also here. It's the reason I would have overpaid to get Suter, as it's extremely hard to find guys who have size, skill, toughness, and the ability to play big minutes all at once. I think at this point, the team needs to cut its ties with Weber, who really doesn't have a future here with the new crop of D men coming up, and Subban/Gorges/Emelin hopefully here long-term.

there is no doubt that if players with the same skill the player with size will be better i beleive the reason LA won the cup last year was because of their size the way i see it a bigger player can cover more ice just by the extra reach he has and as a defenseman it is easier to move a 5'11" forward than a 6"2" forward in front of the net.if crosby was the size of malkin i dont think he would of missed as many games due to injuries.

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being a lil tougher will help to protect some of our guys. But where the toughness will show, will be in the 3rd period.

We lost a lot of games in the 3rd period cos we were simply run down over 60 minutes. After being crashed into the boards for 40 minutes, you come back for the 3rd, your body hurts and you'd rather avoid taking another hit. over the last few seasons we lost a lot of games in the final 20 minutes. Some fans call it the 3rd period meltdown. With big guys who can run down the opposition, our skaters should still be fairly fresh and not completely black and blue from eating glass all game.

This is actually a very good point . Never really thought about it last season but it does make a lot of sense. A guy like Pleks isn't exactly going full steam ahead in the 3rd period if he has spent the last 40 mins eating glass and the boards. In theory it also means we shouldn't see as many lazy penaltys like hooking and holding because the guys don't have the energy to chase someone down to get the puck.

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