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BigTed3

2012-13 Habs Lines

244 posts in this topic

Oh my! So negative... but your opinion. Why pray-tell was Pacioretty-Gomez-Gionta doing so well at the time? IMO Plekanec can hold his own as well as Pacioretty did and the speed factor still remains. And yet you seem comfortable with Bourque-Plekanec-Gionta... go figure! Personally I think your line combinations (trying to convert Eller to a top line left wing when he plays much better at center, and having White center a 4th line even though he has rarely played there from what I understand, makes me question your logic (which you haven't explained). The Gomez factor seems to way heavily on your assessment... but using him as you seem to want to does not help the team and most likely hurts it more IMO. But, to each his own.

Well it's about as logical as moving our best center to the wing to accommodate Gomez. If ANYONE is moving to the wing, it's Gomez. As for why Pacioretty worked with Gomez and Gionta, he works with everyone but the reality is at that point he did do a lot of his scoring on the PP, that line still wasn't great 5 on 5. Also, having size and strength with Gomez - Gionta helped, which is 1 aspect Plekanec can't really bring. Either way, we're not flipping our best center to the wing for Gomez. I'd have no problems getting creative with Gomez but he's not in Plekanec's ballpark defensively, so he'd have to be on the wing and let Plekanec continue to anchor that line.

Prust-Eller-Bourque...

With what we are paying these guys they should be together. Eller is a right-hand center while Bourque, though a left-hand shot, had his better seasons playing right wing (like Cole he may be better there). The line would definitely have size with an element of toughness and some scoring ability.

Nope. He's left handed.

Edited by roy_133
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To me, our top forward assets are Cole, Pacioretty, DD, Plekanec, and Gionta. We should be looking for ways to maximize each player to the best of his ability. Assuming we all agree that Pleks and Gionta are better two-way players than the other three, it just makes sense to keep the DD line from last season as a pure scoring line with OZone starts, first-wave PP time, etc., and then use Tomas and Brian as a two-way scoring line. There is NO way I'm moving Tomas around to accommodate Gomez, whose future here is tenuous at best, and Eller, who hasn't proven he can do what Plekanec does on a regular basis. Assuming our current roster is the way we'll start the season, Tomas is locked in at second-line center.

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To me, our top forward assets are Cole, Pacioretty, DD, Plekanec, and Gionta. We should be looking for ways to maximize each player to the best of his ability. Assuming we all agree that Pleks and Gionta are better two-way players than the other three, it just makes sense to keep the DD line from last season as a pure scoring line with OZone starts, first-wave PP time, etc., and then use Tomas and Brian as a two-way scoring line. There is NO way I'm moving Tomas around to accommodate Gomez, whose future here is tenuous at best, and Eller, who hasn't proven he can do what Plekanec does on a regular basis. Assuming our current roster is the way we'll start the season, Tomas is locked in at second-line center.

I agree with that perspective. So basically lock in:

Patches - DD - Cole

XXXX - Pleks - Gionta

XXXX - XXXX - XXXX

Fill in your XXXXs with players from the group of: Eller, Bourque, Moen, Gomez, Armstrong, Prust, Leblanc, Gallagher, Palushaj. Of that group, Eller and Bourque should have a lock on two of those spots.

Edited by BeanCountingHab
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I agree with that perspective. So basically lock in:

Patches - DD - Cole

XXXX - Pleks - Gionta

XXXX - XXXX - XXXX

Fill in your XXXXs with players from the group of: Eller, Bourque, Moen, Gomez, Armstrong, Prust, Leblanc, Gallagher, Palushaj. Of that group, Eller and Bourque should have a lock on two of those spots.

id say you can also pencil bourque into that 2nd line lw spot, i was hoping we would sign a wolski or a mueller (or a semin hahaha yeah right) but thats not happening and the spot is mr. bourques to lose.

eller i think is staying at center, where i think its obvious he belongs.

i think the roster basically writes itself at the moment, the real wild card guy is gomez. i think if he doesnt get wiped off the face of the earth, he starts at 4th line center and possibly plays himself into the top 9. speaking to a leaf fan buddy of mine, he was carrying on about how gomez isnt even good enough to play in the AHL...the hyperbole gets a bit extreme around this player. the reality is he is an nhl calibre player who we could get some use out of if we are forced to keep him.

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Well it's about as logical as moving our best center to the wing to accommodate Gomez. If ANYONE is moving to the wing, it's Gomez. As for why Pacioretty worked with Gomez and Gionta, he works with everyone but the reality is at that point he did do a lot of his scoring on the PP, that line still wasn't great 5 on 5. Also, having size and strength with Gomez - Gionta helped, which is 1 aspect Plekanec can't really bring. Either way, we're not flipping our best center to the wing for Gomez. I'd have no problems getting creative with Gomez but he's not in Plekanec's ballpark defensively, so he'd have to be on the wing and let Plekanec continue to anchor that line.

Nope. He's left handed.

To me, our top forward assets are Cole, Pacioretty, DD, Plekanec, and Gionta. We should be looking for ways to maximize each player to the best of his ability. Assuming we all agree that Pleks and Gionta are better two-way players than the other three, it just makes sense to keep the DD line from last season as a pure scoring line with OZone starts, first-wave PP time, etc., and then use Tomas and Brian as a two-way scoring line. There is NO way I'm moving Tomas around to accommodate Gomez, whose future here is tenuous at best, and Eller, who hasn't proven he can do what Plekanec does on a regular basis. Assuming our current roster is the way we'll start the season, Tomas is locked in at second-line center.

On Plekanec-Gomez-Gionta... I truly would rather not see Scott in the mix at all. However if he is going to be a part of the team, then I believe my proposal still fits better with Pleks on the wing with Scott carrying and distributing the puck. That does not detract from what Pleks could still do in the face-off circle if need be nor affect his responsibility of being a defensive asset on the line with some help from Gionta. With the experience these players possess it may not really matter where they line-up as I think they should be able to find a way to make the line work in their favor. And the hope wuld be that Plekanec could finally concentrate more on offence rather than being a shutdown player... which could be deligated more to a split between the bottom six.

On Eller... my bad he does shoot left, but that doesn't really change much in terms of the effectiveness he could bring centering both Prust and Bourque on a third line.

Edited by Habs_Hockey_Nutz
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On Plekanec-Gomez-Gionta... I truly would rather not see Scott in the mix at all. However if he is going to be a part of the team, then I believe my proposal still fits better with Pleks on the wing with Scott carrying and distributing the puck. That does not detract from what Pleks could still do in the face-off circle if need be nor affect his responsibility of being a defensive asset on the line with some help from Gionta. With the experience these players possess it may not really matter where they line-up as I think they should be able to find a way to make the line work in their favor. And the hope wuld be that Plekanec could finally concentrate more on offence rather than being a shutdown player... which could be deligated more to a split between the bottom six.

On Eller... my bad he does shoot left, but that doesn't really change much in terms of the effectiveness he could bring centering both Prust and Bourque on a third line.

With all due respect, Plekanec - Gomez - Gionta seems like a bad idea. There is no puck retrieval, board play or net presence. Also, Gomez is not a 2 way center in the ilk of Pleks. Feels like we'd be downgrading with that setup.

I am really wondering why everybody is opposed to starting Eller as second line LW. I wouldn't marry him to the position but seriously what am I missing? Young guy, size, skills, defensively responsible, recently played wing with success at the worlds gets to play with 2 other world class 2-way players and possibly flourish as a top 6 player. He's clearly in top 5 talent wise up front. If it doesnt work you swap him with Bourque after 5-10 games, move Gomez to 3rd line LW and the lines re-align according to roles.

This is a logical alignment:

Scoring line:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole

2-way line:

Eller - Plekanec - Gionta

Secondary reclamation project:

Bourque - Gomez - Armstrong

Energy line:

Moen - White - Prust

If it doesnt work:

Second line:

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta

3rd:

Gomez - Eller - Armstrong

Edited by MIASUN
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With all due respect, Plekanec - Gomez - Gionta seems like a bad idea. There is no puck retrieval, board play or net presence. Also, Gomez is not a 2 way center in the ilk of Pleks. Feels like we'd be downgrading with that setup.

I am really wondering why everybody is opposed to starting Eller as second line LW. I wouldn't marry him to the position but seriously what am I missing? Young guy, size, skills, defensively responsible, recently played wing with success at the worlds gets to play with 2 other world class 2-way players and possibly flourish as a top 6 player. He's clearly in top 5 talent wise up front. If it doesnt work you swap him with Bourque after 5-10 games, move Gomez to 3rd line LW and the lines re-align according to roles.

This is a logical alignment:

Scoring line:

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole

2-way line:

Eller - Plekanec - Gionta

Secondary reclamation project:

Bourque - Gomez - Armstrong

Energy line:

Moen - White - Prust

If it doesnt work:

Second line:

Bourque - Plekanec - Gionta

3rd:

Gomez - Eller - Armstrong

I don't dislike your lines but we may simply have a different philosphy with all due respect ;)

By that I mean... why are some stuck on the need to have a two-way line as the second line. I get the fact that Plekanec is one of if not the best two-way forward on the Habs, but he also has offensive potential that I believe has been hampered by the need to be more of a defensive/shutdown player (which actually hurts the second line as an offensive scoring line IMO). Why not two offensive lines (top six) and two two-way defensive lines (bottom six). It is my opinion that with coaches more and more willing to role 4 lines the two can be split as such. In fact in the not too distant past, the third line was considered to be the defensive checking/shutdown line. Just maybe one of the reasons the Habs in recent times have had trouble scoring as much as they potentially should, relates to the use of a second line as a shutdown line.

The probem the way I saw it before was that in an effort to try to spread scoring across three lines the net effect was only one truly offensive line when all was said and done. And this may have had something to do with the particular use of Plekanec in that respect. And what resulted was that young offensive players with potential who were relegated to the bottom six with pluggers could not progress.

I think when MB went out and signed Prust and Armstrong he may have been thinking of shifting the defensive role on the team to a third/fourth line split when you consider the others that seemingly could make up the bottom six (Moen, White, Nokelainen). Would you want Plekanec centering a third line?

If I'm wrong in my thinking then there could be two possibilities... Plekanec anchors the third line as a shutdown specialist or someone else (Eller at this point it may be) does the job. IMO, neither of Desharnais or Gomez fits that position. Perhaps Nokelainen could do it. However, to this point he has been relegated to 4th line duties when he has had a chance to play.

The problem is Gomez IMO. He simply doesn't fit in another scenario (In my mind) other than an offrensive role. Take away Gomez add another winger, bump up Bourque and things could be different.

Edited by Habs_Hockey_Nutz
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I don't dislike your lines but we may simply have a different philosphy with all due respect ;)

By that I mean... why are some stuck on the need to have a two-way line as the second line. I get the fact that Plekanec is one of if not the best two-way forward on the Habs, but he also has offensive potential that I believe has been hampered by the need to be more of a defensive/shutdown player (which actually hurts the second line as an offensive scoring line IMO). Why not two offensive lines (top six) and two two-way defensive lines (bottom six). It is my opinion that with coaches more and more willing to role 4 lines the two can be split as such. In fact in the not too distant past, the third line was considered to be the defensive checking/shutdown line. Just maybe one of the reasons the Habs in recent times have had trouble scoring as much as they potentially should, relates to the use of a second line as a shutdown line.

The probem the way I saw it before was that in an effort to try to spread scoring across three lines the net effect was only one truly offensive line when all was said and done. And this may have had something to do with the particular use of Plekanec in that respect. And what resulted was that young offensive players with potential who were relegated to the bottom six with pluggers could not progress.

I think when MB went out and signed Prust and Armstrong he may have been thinking of shifting the defensive role on the team to a third/fourth line split when you consider the others that seemingly could make up the bottom six (Moen, White, Nokelainen). Would you want Plekanec centering a third line?

If I'm wrong in my thinking then there could be two possibilities... Plekanec anchors the third line as a shutdown specialist or someone else (Eller at this point it may be) does the job. IMO, neither of Desharnais or Gomez fits that position. Perhaps Nokelainen could do it. However, to this point he has been relegated to 4th line duties when he has had a chance to play.

The problem is Gomez IMO. He simply doesn't fit in another scenario (In my mind) other than an offrensive role. Take away Gomez add another winger, bump up Bourque and things could be different.

I certainly see what you're saying here, HHN, and I think that it could work. I like the fact that some of the lower tier guys that we got (particularly Armstrong) can play, as you said, more of an actual two way game rather than what we've had in the past (an "energy" line that wasn't particularly good at defence or scoring).

Having said that, I can also see the benefits of having Eller in the 2W position and making Pleks' trio the go-to defensive line as well. The problem last year was that we asked Tomas to play a 2-way role but gave him extremely one-dimensional linemates. Even when he managed to take the puck away from the opposition he wasn't going to be getting much done the other way trying to hit Moen with a breakout pass. Hopefully Pleky, Gionta and another quality winger could stifle the other team's top line AND put up some offensive numbers at the same time (especially if that other team's top line happens to be defensively weak).

Either of the above scenarios could work, IMO, but neither is guaranteed. We're honestly just missing a true second line winger - if we had one I think there'd be a pretty clear-cut top/bottom six and we wouldn't be having a lot of these discussions. As it stands though we're probably not going to find one perfect solution so we may have to try a few things to see what heppens.

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With all due respect, Plekanec - Gomez - Gionta seems like a bad idea. There is no puck retrieval, board play or net presence. Also, Gomez is not a 2 way center in the ilk of Pleks. Feels like we'd be downgrading with that setup.

On one hand, I too wouldn't want a second line centered by Gomez at the expense of Plekanec. You don't kick your best center out to wing to accommodate a guy who may be in Hamilton for all we know next year.

On the other hand, I would humbly disagree with your assessment of the line. Gomez and Gionta have the wheels to retrieve the puck. Gionta is a great puck possession guy -- he and Tomas can work the boards fine. Gio goes to the net.

I am really wondering why everybody is opposed to starting Eller as second line LW.

Because if Lars has any future here, it will be as a center, not a winger. We need to know whether he has the upside to be a top-six center, or whether he's going to be a very good third-line winger who can chip in with 15 goals and 30-40 points most years. If we convert him to LW in a very tough assignment -- playing against top lines, little OZone time, but still expected to score -- I don't think we're helping his development, and a year from now, we still won't know what we have in him at center.

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Because if Lars has any future here, it will be as a center, not a winger. We need to know whether he has the upside to be a top-six center, or whether he's going to be a very good third-line winger who can chip in with 15 goals and 30-40 points most years. If we convert him to LW in a very tough assignment -- playing against top lines, little OZone time, but still expected to score -- I don't think we're helping his development, and a year from now, we still won't know what we have in him at center.

Lars has been in the league now for a couple of years. I think he's had enough time to sit on the lower lines, and it's about time he got the chance to take on bigger match-ups, so long as he gets better linemates as well. Last season, I was of the same mindset you have right now: that Lars is a center and should play there. However, having drafted Galchenyuk, we now have a lot of organizational depth when it comes to top 6 centers. If anything, I would say Eller has a better chance of a future here in the top 6 if he can switch to the wing because after Pacman, we're very thin at top 6 LW's. If the organization plans on using Eller as a top 6 center going forward, that's fine, but then we need to give him that shot this season. It won't help us judge him in that role to give him yet another season playing the 3rd line with the likes of moen or Armstrong. And if the team plans on doing that, then it needs to trade one of Pleks or DD because neither one of those guys is a 3rd line center.

If the plan is to make one of those deals during the season, then I'd like to see Eller start the year in the top 6 (while we build up DD's value for example) on the wing so we can at least get an idea of how he fares against quality opposition. We know how he can do as the 3rd line center, and I think at this point, it gives us more information to see what he can do in the top 6.

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Lars has been in the league now for a couple of years. I think he's had enough time to sit on the lower lines, and it's about time he got the chance to take on bigger match-ups, so long as he gets better linemates as well. Last season, I was of the same mindset you have right now: that Lars is a center and should play there. However, having drafted Galchenyuk, we now have a lot of organizational depth when it comes to top 6 centers. If anything, I would say Eller has a better chance of a future here in the top 6 if he can switch to the wing because after Pacman, we're very thin at top 6 LW's. If the organization plans on using Eller as a top 6 center going forward, that's fine, but then we need to give him that shot this season. It won't help us judge him in that role to give him yet another season playing the 3rd line with the likes of moen or Armstrong. And if the team plans on doing that, then it needs to trade one of Pleks or DD because neither one of those guys is a 3rd

THIS.

I see Lars having an opportunity this season to snatch a larger role within the Top 6. That's chance is on LW. Otherwise, it's another season on the 3rd line trying to chip in offense with an ill defined role.

By the end of last season, Lars showed himself to be in our top 5 talent-wise. He's also demonstrated a good understanding of 2-way play. What he hasn't shown is an ability to sustain quality play against higher competition. This is his chance IMO.

If you remove the Lars as a center fixation and look at it strictly from a hockey standpoint, do you think anybody else on the rosters skillset not on the top line is a better fit beside Pleks and Gio?

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THIS.

I see Lars having an opportunity this season to snatch a larger role within the Top 6. That's chance is on LW. Otherwise, it's another season on the 3rd line trying to chip in offense with an ill defined role.

By the end of last season, Lars showed himself to be in our top 5 talent-wise. He's also demonstrated a good understanding of 2-way play. What he hasn't shown is an ability to sustain quality play against higher competition. This is his chance IMO.

If you remove the Lars as a center fixation and look at it strictly from a hockey standpoint, do you think anybody else on the rosters skillset not on the top line is a better fit beside Pleks and Gio?

I don't see a better fit, I can see Eller playing there but wondering where Bourque would play. If we were to play Lars there he would have to be played there all season not switched back and forth.

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Pacio - Desharn - Cole

Bourq - Plek - Gionta

Eller - Galchenyuk - Leblanc

Moen - Dumont - Prust

thats what my lines would be.

i never liked armstrong or nokelainen,

i rather put youngsters.

armstrong gets pushed around like a rag doll..

and nokelainen has no grit or character what so ever.

habs lack too much grit and big physical players to put

both of these players.

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Now that I see that Bergevin probably wont make anymore moves except for our RFAs. So I have made my lines accordingly.

1st line: Purely offensive (most Ozone starts)

Pacman- DD- Cole

2nd line: An offensive and defensive line ( half Dzone/ half Ozone)

Eller- Pleks-Gionta

3rd line: Grit Line with some offense( neutral zone starts)

Bourque- Gomez- Armstrong

4th line: Grit line

Prust- White/ Noke- Moen

Spares: White/Noke, Geoffrion

I put Gomez with Bourque and Armstrong as kind of Rebound line not taking away quality linemates from Pleks for this. With Gomez's" puck moving skills" hopefully they can provide secondary scoring.

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Cole - Des- Patched

Plek - Gomez - Gio <-------------- a little small, plek used to play the wing when he started in the nhl right?

Bourque - Eller - Prust

White/Armstrong - Moen

Subban -Gorges

Markie - Emie

Bouillion - Weber ----------------------------> i think we should stick with webs this year, let him play out the whole season for once

Problems = Not enough top 6 talent/ too small in top 6 especially line 2. 3rd defensive pairing's too small.

PS: This team blows, i try to be positive but we aint got nothing. Marcie Berg missed out on Jags and Larry. SIGH...... REEEEEASTART!@

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and nokelainen has no grit or character what so ever.

Nokelainen has a little bit of grit and character you have to give him that.

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So since we're Discussing lines, I'll throw my bid in:

Line 1: Patches, Desharnais, Cole (no brainer, your best line last season)

Line 2: Eller, Plekanec, Bourque (Padding Pleks with some meat on the wings is a good idea)

Line 3: Prust, Gomez, Gionta (I bet you Gomez and Gionta will score more with some grit on their LW)

Line 4: Moen, Leblanc, Armstrong ( I just like this line;2 solid vets for Louis to learn from)

DP1: Markov, Subban (Again, no brainer, your 2 best)

DP2: Karberle, Diaz (Kaberle had 22 pts in 43 games as Hab; of course your keeping and playing him)

DP3: Georges, Emelin (Pretty damn good shut down pair)

G1: Price (DUH!)

G2: Budaj (See Carey Price)

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Patches-Desharnais-Cole (You have to atleast start the season with these guys and see if they continue to score)

Geoffrion-Plekanec, Gionta (Geoffrion fit the big winger role if he comes to camp stronger and more physical he could work + he never played with gionta + pleky last season)

Moen-Eller-LL (good defensive line that has the ability to score)

Prust-White-Armstrong (Im actually excited to see White and Armstrong play together maybe smash bros on the 4th line)

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Patches-Desharnais-Cole (You have to atleast start the season with these guys and see if they continue to score)

Geoffrion-Plekanec, Gionta (Geoffrion fit the big winger role if he comes to camp stronger and more physical he could work + he never played with gionta + pleky last season)

Moen-Eller-LL (good defensive line that has the ability to score)

Prust-White-Armstrong (Im actually excited to see White and Armstrong play together maybe smash bros on the 4th line)

Do you really think the Habs opted to pay Prust 2.5 million per season (4 years) to play on the 4th line? Moen was signed for less (1.8 million).

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So since we're Discussing lines, I'll throw my bid in:

Line 1: Patches, Desharnais, Cole (no brainer, your best line last season)

Line 2: Eller, Plekanec, Bourque (Padding Pleks with some meat on the wings is a good idea)

Line 3: Prust, Gomez, Gionta (I bet you Gomez and Gionta will score more with some grit on their LW)

Line 4: Moen, Leblanc, Armstrong ( I just like this line;2 solid vets for Louis to learn from)

DP1: Markov, Subban (Again, no brainer, your 2 best)

DP2: Karberle, Diaz (Kaberle had 22 pts in 43 games as Hab; of course your keeping and playing him)

DP3: Georges, Emelin (Pretty damn good shut down pair)

I find your forward combinations interesting. ;) If Gomez is around I would be down with trying these lines for a little while.

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So since we're Discussing lines, I'll throw my bid in:

Line 1: Patches, Desharnais, Cole (no brainer, your best line last season)

Line 2: Eller, Plekanec, Bourque (Padding Pleks with some meat on the wings is a good idea)

Line 3: Prust, Gomez, Gionta (I bet you Gomez and Gionta will score more with some grit on their LW)

Line 4: Moen, Leblanc, Armstrong ( I just like this line;2 solid vets for Louis to learn from)

DP1: Markov, Subban (Again, no brainer, your 2 best)

DP2: Karberle, Diaz (Kaberle had 22 pts in 43 games as Hab; of course your keeping and playing him)

DP3: Georges, Emelin (Pretty damn good shut down pair)

G1: Price (DUH!)

G2: Budaj (See Carey Price)

As the team stands now I actually dont mind these combinations.I think at some point Geoffrion gets in there,I also believe on the D Bouillon gets in there somehow.

Im a little curious as to why Subban isnt signed yet.

Im not saying he will be traded,but we would definitely get a good return for him.Its interesting to say the least.

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As the team stands now I actually dont mind these combinations.I think at some point Geoffrion gets in there,I also believe on the D Bouillon gets in there somehow.

Im a little curious as to why Subban isnt signed yet.

Im not saying he will be traded,but we would definitely get a good return for him.Its interesting to say the least.

I think the Subban signing will come for certain. Someone brought up how long it took to complete Carey's contract two years ago. Apparently it wasn't signed until August. :unsure: Different management team now, yes, but I don't think we have to worry about P.K. being ready to go next season. ;)

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Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole

Eller - Pleks - Gionta

Prust - Gomez - Bourque

Armstrong - White - Moen

Geoffrion

Nokelainen

Markov Emelin

Gorges Subban

Kaberle Boullion

Diaz

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Of all the Hab's prospects or fringe players who have signed EL or 2W contracts, does anyone have an opinion on who has the greatest chance of cracking the lineup for the upcoming season at this point in time?

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Of all the Hab's prospects or fringe players who have signed EL or 2W contracts, does anyone have an opinion on who has the greatest chance of cracking the lineup for the upcoming season at this point in time?

Did Palushaj sign a 2 way contract? If he did, it's him and it's not even close. IMO anyways

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