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You didnt just say that did you? ;)

We're not talking about coalminers or something. These guys get obscene amounts of money to chase a piece of rubber around the ice. Even if they had somehow gone to an 80/20 split most players would earn more than the average Canadian does in 10 years.

One of Hamrlik's arguments was that they already have enough "playing hockey is selfish" - he comes from an extremely poor country you know. People visit Prague and think the Czech Republic is a rich country but aside from that one major city (supported by tourism) its not. I would think it wholly logical for someone who comes from a very poor society to think that perhaps they should be happy with what they've got - but regardless - Hamrlik's comments were justifed - and his opinion.

I have no problem with any of the players/owners/medias opinions throughout the ordeal - they own what they say - but I have more respect for Hamrlik saying it that for Cole harping on his opinion. But thats just my opinion. :lol:

well, yes I did. Sure they make tons more money than we do to chase a piece of rubber, but if you went through years of hardwork to get your dream job, how would you feel if in 2 years your salary was cut down to a fraction of what everyone before you used to make simply because your boss wanted more money?

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well, yes I did. Sure they make tons more money than we do to chase a piece of rubber, but if you went through years of hardwork to get your dream job, how would you feel if in 2 years your salary was cut down to a fraction of what everyone before you used to make simply because your boss wanted more money?

I most certainly wouldn't like it - but - i sure as heck wouldn't act like I was working for the betterment of some impoverished millworkers or something. The whole "brotherhood- and looking out for our brothers to come" thing amongst a bunch of millionaires is ludicrous.

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I most certainly wouldn't like it - but - i sure as heck wouldn't act like I was working for the betterment of some impoverished millworkers or something. The whole "brotherhood- and looking out for our brothers to come" thing amongst a bunch of millionaires is ludicrous.

I'm not sure I agree, I mean a guy like Cole is never going to get back the money he lost in the lockout, so it clearly wasn't selfish reasons. He's helping to make sure players in the future get their "fair share", it's just that "fair share" in this case happens to be millions.

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I most certainly wouldn't like it - but - i sure as heck wouldn't act like I was working for the betterment of some impoverished millworkers or something. The whole "brotherhood- and looking out for our brothers to come" thing amongst a bunch of millionaires is ludicrous.

But it isn't. The average NHL career length is around 240 games, and while you're being paid a minimum of 1.5M (500k/year) over that time (really it's only 750k after tax, and you have to include living costs in at least the city they play in), a few percent here and there does matter. Of course, if Cammalleri gets 5.8M instead of 6M, it doesn't matter, but for the Mike Blunden's of the NHL a few percentage points is a big deal. Of course, it's all in perspective and it doesn't compare to the coal miners and the working man fighting for a 40 hour work week, but it's not inconsequential.

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i know it sounds ludicrous to us not in the hockey world to see NHL players screaming about more money and a bigger cuts.

Truth of the matter is, only a small portion of NHL players are really earning the big bucks. And those that are, also have things going on the side. Cros, Stamkos, Ovy, Cammy, etc... All are sponsored and make more money advertising for Reebok or Gatorade.

The mill worker or assembly line worker at Honda will make more money in their lifetime than a guy like Budaj will make over his hockey career. If lucky, you can play for 15+ years. I'm not talking stars since they only make up a small percentage of all NHlers, but the average player is lucky to have a 10 year NHL career. The stars are set, not only making the big bucks, they have endorsement deals that could continue well past their playing careers. Cros may have missed a lot of hockey over the last few seasons, but i bet he didn't miss very many commercial shoots.

I feel for the average hockey player, they have such a small window with which to make a lifetimes salary. Football players have it even worse, length of an NFL career is about 5 years (depending on the position). QB's usually have the longest career, whereas running backs are lucky to have a contract and a healthy body in their 30's.

Us fans all dream of playing pro sports. Yet the reality is most will have to find some sort of employment after their brief careers(and all they've ever done is sacrifice their lives to living a dream). Thankfully nowadays, you can go into coaching, scouting, sports broadcaster, but that's only for a lucky few.

The mill worker may have to log 40-50 hours a week for 40+ years, but at least they have financial security for their retirement.

When you crunch the numbers, you're safer working 40+ years as a blue-collar worker than an average pro athlete. That career ending injury is possible with every blocked shot or hard body check.

Erik Cole was lucky to sign a 4 yr deal at his age, that pays him 4.5 mil/season. Several million for a few years isn't that much when you spread it out over a whole lifetime. Try and work in construction after a 10 year grinder career, your body is finished. If it isn't the head injuries that get you, it's the arthritis in every joint from all the wear and tear.

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Truth of the matter is, only a small portion of NHL players are really earning the big bucks.

Im sorry, but ask 100 canadians and 99 will tell you this is bull.

A league minimum salary of half a million dollars is still a ridiculous amount of money. The average Canadian (which was my original starting point) makes less than 1/10 of that. Minimum wage would put you at approximately 1/22 of that! And to the poster who talked about taxes, believe it or not, we all pay them! I am not sure why we talk about Hockey players like they suddenly die the moment they retire. They retire with a modicum of fame - regardless of whether or not they are a star or a grinder which is a HUGE leg up in business. Sure they work hard at training and practicing, but doctors and teachers and artists and musicians work 100 hour weeks too, perfecting their art/skill.

We're way off topic as this is the Erik Cole thread, but we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

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Im sorry, but ask 100 canadians and 99 will tell you this is bull.

A league minimum salary of half a million dollars is still a ridiculous amount of money. The average Canadian (which was my original starting point) makes less than 1/10 of that. Minimum wage would put you at approximately 1/22 of that! And to the poster who talked about taxes, believe it or not, we all pay them! I am not sure why we talk about Hockey players like they suddenly die the moment they retire. They retire with a modicum of fame - regardless of whether or not they are a star or a grinder which is a HUGE leg up in business. Sure they work hard at training and practicing, but doctors and teachers and artists and musicians work 100 hour weeks too, perfecting their art/skill.

We're way off topic as this is the Erik Cole thread, but we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

That's because 100 Canadians are looking at the small picture and forget that players have lives, families to support after hockey. Why do you think you have so many x-athletes becoming sports broadcasters instead of some kid who went to school for it. The kid who studied sports journalism and broadcasting is much more qualified. NHLnetwork is well known for giving out of work hockey players work, Murphy's, Weeks, Holik, etc... You really think they'd do that over sitting at home with their families or spend 8 months out of the year in Europe away from friends and families?

I know several x hockey players. They all say the same thing (they're not stars), you have such a small window in which to make a lifestime wages. After taxes, some are paying for 2 houses. One for the wife and kids so they don't have to be uprooted and either a condo or an apartment in the city where they play 8 months out of the year.

It's really not as glamorous as some want to think.

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Im sorry, but ask 100 canadians and 99 will tell you this is bull.

A league minimum salary of half a million dollars is still a ridiculous amount of money. The average Canadian (which was my original starting point) makes less than 1/10 of that. Minimum wage would put you at approximately 1/22 of that!

Mathieu Darche would beg to differ. He spent his career grinding it out and putting wear and tear on his body in the AHL getting close to or slightly more than what the average Canadian makes. He made it to the NHL, got a couple seasons at 500K, and then got tossed by the wayside when he declined out of an NHL level of play. There's guys like this all over the league, I'm not trying to make everyone feel sorry for the poor NHL players, but they aren't all getting 5 million dollars a year.

And to the poster who talked about taxes, believe it or not, we all pay them! I am not sure why we talk about Hockey players like they suddenly die the moment they retire. They retire with a modicum of fame - regardless of whether or not they are a star or a grinder which is a HUGE leg up in business. Sure they work hard at training and practicing, but doctors and teachers and artists and musicians work 100 hour weeks too, perfecting their art/skill.

Yes, I know everyone pays taxes. But to argue that the average joe pays the same amount of taxes and to argue that it's the same is inaccurate. At the levels of income these guys have, close to 50% of their pay is taxed right off the top. 250k a year for a few years isn't set for life kind of money. What other people get is largely irrelevant, the supply and demand aspect is vastly different for NHLers and teachers, and NHLers are paid as such. Hockey players don't suddenly die, but it's not as if they have a six figure income their whole life. I understand that in a vacuum when NHL players get 500k and teachers get 50 it seems unfair, and in terms of societal impact it is rather unequal, but as offensive as you find the rhetoric the PA used, I don't think decrying players for getting what the market will bear is fair as well.

EDIT: Firststar put it better than I could.

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nice dry.gif....the circus begins for our new season.....and game 1 has not even started.......it would be a miracle if we could ever begin a season without distraction/*controversy dry.gif

* blame it on P.K. :lol:

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On the subject of Cole's comments, every player is entitled to their own opinion and deciding whether they want to play or not. In the end, if he chooses to retire because he doesn't like the working conditions, that's his choice. It would suck for us, but he's entitled to deciding what he wants to do with his life.

On the subject of Darche and minor league players, well that's one of the risks of going into hockey: that you never make it to the NHL or that you get injured and forced into an early retirement. Every profession has its risks and rewards. If you become a musician, maybe you never get a record deal. If you become an astronaut or a deep sea diver or a fireman, you could die on the job. If you become a doctor or a lawyer, you do lots of schooling to get to the workforce. And so on... no one forces a hockey player to go into the profession, so dealing with the risk of not making it is just par for the course if you go down that road. In any case, the CBA is never about protecting guys who don't make the league. And the minimum salary is going up a decent amount (I believe 30-40%) over the course of the deal, so the little guy is being given his dues too. Frankly, if Darche makes 600k for only 4 seasons in the league, he's still made more money than most people will in a lifetime. And he's doing it in a job most people would love to have, with the prospect of getting a career in coaching, management, or the media afterwards without doing any schooling towards those professions. So no, I'm not crying for Darche and I doubt he's crying about it either. H did well to fight his way into the league and he should be proud of it. And if a guy like Cole doesn't want to play, then a guy like Darche will benefit from that, and that's life.

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Ooh, that passion for and commitment to the game, Erik Cole! :rolleyes:

On the subject of taxes, the last time I checked, a loaf of bread costs the same regardless of whether you're an ordinary person or a guy making millions of dollars pushing a puck around a frozen ice surface. I also wasn't aware that high schools required millions of dollars in tuition -- Erik, perhaps you should scout your daughter's high school options with a bit more diligence? Delusional High may be taking you for a ride!

Higher taxes for the rich exist because 50% of $4 million per year STILL MEANS YOU HAVE $2 MILLION DOLLARS IN YOUR WORTHLESS POCKET. It has no impact on your living unless you are the kind of decadent spendthrift who honestly thinks that not being able to buy that fourth car is the same as someone who can barely put food on the table to support his family.

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Ooh, that passion for and commitment to the game, Erik Cole! :rolleyes:

On the subject of taxes, the last time I checked, a loaf of bread costs the same regardless of whether you're an ordinary person or a guy making millions of dollars pushing a puck around a frozen ice surface. I also wasn't aware that high schools required millions of dollars in tuition -- Erik, perhaps you should scout your daughter's high school options with a bit more diligence? Delusional High may be taking you for a ride!

Higher taxes for the rich exist because 50% of $4 million per year STILL MEANS YOU HAVE $2 MILLION DOLLARS IN YOUR WORTHLESS POCKET. It has no impact on your living unless you are the kind of decadent spendthrift who honestly thinks that not being able to buy that fourth car is the same as someone who can barely put food on the table to support his family.

I'm not talking about 4 million becoming 2 million when I talk about taxes. I'm talking about 500k becoming 250k, and people lumping Erik Cole's career in with Mathieu Darche's career. Erik Cole will be fine in any CBA, people like Darche will still be fine, but a few percentage points matter to him. We can't make generalizations about hockey players and speak of Darche's financial situation the same as Cole's. Guys like Erik Cole did take a hit in this lockout so that Darche types will be better off in the future, regardless of what the scale is. Yes, in a perfect world I'd like to see the bottom 6 guys get a hundred thousand or so, and the stars be the only guys who get paid, but the economics involved push salaries up to a level that seems a bit silly when looking at their contributions to society relative to a surgeon, but the reality is there's far less supply for people that can play hockey as well as Erik Cole.

Moving on, I do find it ironic that Cole and the PA's big talking point was about how they "just wanted existing contracts honoured", and now as soon as it's signed he talks about retiring. Ludicrous. There's also no way he retires, there's no way he's going to just leave 8 million dollars on the table. Mrs. Cole will need new clothes some time. There's also how silly the "we just want to play" garbage was.

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very well said and put...

:)

i know it sounds ludicrous to us not in the hockey world to see NHL players screaming about more money and a bigger cuts.

Truth of the matter is, only a small portion of NHL players are really earning the big bucks. And those that are, also have things going on the side. Cros, Stamkos, Ovy, Cammy, etc... All are sponsored and make more money advertising for Reebok or Gatorade.

The mill worker or assembly line worker at Honda will make more money in their lifetime than a guy like Budaj will make over his hockey career. If lucky, you can play for 15+ years. I'm not talking stars since they only make up a small percentage of all NHlers, but the average player is lucky to have a 10 year NHL career. The stars are set, not only making the big bucks, they have endorsement deals that could continue well past their playing careers. Cros may have missed a lot of hockey over the last few seasons, but i bet he didn't miss very many commercial shoots.

I feel for the average hockey player, they have such a small window with which to make a lifetimes salary. Football players have it even worse, length of an NFL career is about 5 years (depending on the position). QB's usually have the longest career, whereas running backs are lucky to have a contract and a healthy body in their 30's.

Us fans all dream of playing pro sports. Yet the reality is most will have to find some sort of employment after their brief careers(and all they've ever done is sacrifice their lives to living a dream). Thankfully nowadays, you can go into coaching, scouting, sports broadcaster, but that's only for a lucky few.

The mill worker may have to log 40-50 hours a week for 40+ years, but at least they have financial security for their retirement.

When you crunch the numbers, you're safer working 40+ years as a blue-collar worker than an average pro athlete. That career ending injury is possible with every blocked shot or hard body check.

Erik Cole was lucky to sign a 4 yr deal at his age, that pays him 4.5 mil/season. Several million for a few years isn't that much when you spread it out over a whole lifetime. Try and work in construction after a 10 year grinder career, your body is finished. If it isn't the head injuries that get you, it's the arthritis in every joint from all the wear and tear.

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i know it sounds ludicrous to us not in the hockey world to see NHL players screaming about more money and a bigger cuts.

Truth of the matter is, only a small portion of NHL players are really earning the big bucks. And those that are, also have things going on the side. Cros, Stamkos, Ovy, Cammy, etc... All are sponsored and make more money advertising for Reebok or Gatorade.

The mill worker or assembly line worker at Honda will make more money in their lifetime than a guy like Budaj will make over his hockey career. If lucky, you can play for 15+ years. I'm not talking stars since they only make up a small percentage of all NHlers, but the average player is lucky to have a 10 year NHL career. The stars are set, not only making the big bucks, they have endorsement deals that could continue well past their playing careers. Cros may have missed a lot of hockey over the last few seasons, but i bet he didn't miss very many commercial shoots.

I feel for the average hockey player, they have such a small window with which to make a lifetimes salary. Football players have it even worse, length of an NFL career is about 5 years (depending on the position). QB's usually have the longest career, whereas running backs are lucky to have a contract and a healthy body in their 30's.

Us fans all dream of playing pro sports. Yet the reality is most will have to find some sort of employment after their brief careers(and all they've ever done is sacrifice their lives to living a dream). Thankfully nowadays, you can go into coaching, scouting, sports broadcaster, but that's only for a lucky few.

The mill worker may have to log 40-50 hours a week for 40+ years, but at least they have financial security for their retirement.

When you crunch the numbers, you're safer working 40+ years as a blue-collar worker than an average pro athlete. That career ending injury is possible with every blocked shot or hard body check.

Erik Cole was lucky to sign a 4 yr deal at his age, that pays him 4.5 mil/season. Several million for a few years isn't that much when you spread it out over a whole lifetime. Try and work in construction after a 10 year grinder career, your body is finished. If it isn't the head injuries that get you, it's the arthritis in every joint from all the wear and tear.

Assembly line worker would get paid not very much, let's say 30000$ a year, multiply that by 40 years, that's 1.2 million dollars.

Budaj makes that in 1 year. He's now played 7 years (going into his 8th), so you can add up that cash pile.

So maybe I'm confused here but the numbers don't add up.

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Mathieu Darche would beg to differ. He spent his career grinding it out and putting wear and tear on his body in the AHL getting close to or slightly more than what the average Canadian makes. He made it to the NHL, got a couple seasons at 500K, and then got tossed by the wayside when he declined out of an NHL level of play. There's guys like this all over the league, I'm not trying to make everyone feel sorry for the poor NHL players, but they aren't all getting 5 million dollars a year.

Yes, I know everyone pays taxes. But to argue that the average joe pays the same amount of taxes and to argue that it's the same is inaccurate. At the levels of income these guys have, close to 50% of their pay is taxed right off the top. 250k a year for a few years isn't set for life kind of money. What other people get is largely irrelevant, the supply and demand aspect is vastly different for NHLers and teachers, and NHLers are paid as such. Hockey players don't suddenly die, but it's not as if they have a six figure income their whole life. I understand that in a vacuum when NHL players get 500k and teachers get 50 it seems unfair, and in terms of societal impact it is rather unequal, but as offensive as you find the rhetoric the PA used, I don't think decrying players for getting what the market will bear is fair as well.

EDIT: Firststar put it better than I could.

And darche made what the average Canadian makes during his AHL time(10 years approx). He had 500K for I believe 2 or 3 season with the habs and it seems like his NHL career is over.

The average Canadian, will make that constant 60 mil every year for approximately 40+ years. It will probably go up with inflation and raises, so in the end, the average Canadian who makes between $50-60 mil/year will have made a lot more than Darche.

Hopefully for him he'll land a job as a scout or maybe be on L'antichambre or one of the local french radio stations. If he doesn't land something he'll be seriously hurting to support his family. He could technically go back to Hamilton and play another year or so. That'll only give him an extra 120 mil. The Average house owner living in the west island (around St John's and St Charles) average 250 mil/year.

This guy was a pro athlete, we expect him to be a millionaire. He's far from it.

Yup, that's enough to survive a family and himself well into his twilight years.

It isn't as glamorous as most of us think.

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And darche made what the average Canadian makes during his AHL time(10 years approx). He had 500K for I believe 2 or 3 season with the habs and it seems like his NHL career is over.

The average Canadian, will make that constant 60 mil every year for approximately 40+ years. It will probably go up with inflation and raises, so in the end, the average Canadian who makes between $50-60 mil/year will have made a lot more than Darche.

Hopefully for him he'll land a job as a scout or maybe be on L'antichambre or one of the local french radio stations. If he doesn't land something he'll be seriously hurting to support his family. He could technically go back to Hamilton and play another year or so. That'll only give him an extra 120 mil. The Average house owner living in the west island (around St John's and St Charles) average 250 mil/year.

This guy was a pro athlete, we expect him to be a millionaire. He's far from it.

Yup, that's enough to survive a family and himself well into his twilight years.

It isn't as glamorous as most of us think.

Hockey players don't stop working for the next 30 years of their life though, so they do get a salary like any other person + whatever they made through hockey. They are millionnaires, don't kid yourself. Plus, all that money you get into a very short period of time, which mean you can invest it and other stuff and gain from that for years. You can't do that if you earn 30-40k a year.

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Assembly line worker would get paid not very much, let's say 30000$ a year, multiply that by 40 years, that's 1.2 million dollars.

Budaj makes that in 1 year. He's now played 7 years (going into his 8th), so you can add up that cash pile.

So maybe I'm confused here but the numbers don't add up.

The more money you make, the more you get taken off in taxes. Specially here in Quebec. Assembly line workers make way more than that. My buddy works for the city of Laval, putting up pylons so road workers can fix the hwy's. He makes $65,000/year.

My uncle in the 80 to early 90's made $30,000/yearly for GM in St Catherines Ontario. That was over 20 years ago, i bet it's doubled today.

If you're calculating $30,000 a year, then it's normal that the numbers don't add up. You're off by 1/2. ;)

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The more money you make, the more you get taken off in taxes. Specially here in Quebec. Assembly line workers make way more than that. My buddy works for the city of Laval, putting up pylons so road workers can fix the hwy's. He makes $65,000/year.

My uncle in the 80 to early 90's made $30,000/yearly for GM in St Catherines Ontario. That was over 20 years ago, i bet it's doubled today.

If you're calculating $30,000 a year, then it's normal that the numbers don't add up. You're off by 1/2. ;)

Would love to make their salaries, not sure in what world they live but certainly not mine.

Even at 60,000, as I said if you get 1 million in 2 years, you can invest it right away and benefit from that for 40 years. At 60,000 a year, that's not the same game. Plus, Darche will get a salary after he plays so that 1 million is free in his pocket, so to speak.

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Hockey players don't stop working for the next 30 years of their life though, so they do get a salary like any other person + whatever they made through hockey. They are millionnaires, don't kid yourself. Plus, all that money you get into a very short period of time, which mean you can invest it and other stuff and gain from that for years. You can't do that if you earn 30-40k a year.

have you ever talked with an x NHLer about his finances?

You'd be really surprised to know a lot have expenses we never took into consideration.

Specially in Montreal and Toronto where hockey players are hounded by fans, they can't live in middle class neighborhoods. Cammy lived on Nuns island, several on Ile Bizarre, others in Hamsted or Westmount. Might not mean anything to those living outside of Montreal, but they are very expensive neighborhoods with heavy security.

they have no choice to live in areas like that due to the media spotlight. Carey before moving in with his fiancee was living right next door to a friend of mine in Old Montreal. Try and get into that building without living there or knowing someone, impossible.

Whether they can afford it or not, they have to live in areas like that for the safety of their families. Their kids are sent to private school, again with heavy security. They have no choice, people could kidnap their kids and demand money.

Don't believe me, just this summer an x MLBer was murdered in his home, the same day he received his pension check. It was south America or Mexico, but he was told to live in a gated community for his safety, too bad he didn't listen.

fans can be very creepy. It's one thing to go out to a bar as a young 20 year old and be followed by every girl in the bar. It's very different when you have a wife/gf and kids.

The guys like Sid, Ovy, Kovalchuk, these guys will never have to worry about money for the rest of their lives. That's why you rarely see these types of player becoming broadcasters. It's almost always back up tender like Weekes, Jamie McLennan or grinders, 3rd 4th liners.

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Not every NHLer has it as good as a star, but as I said, that's just one of the risks of going after a pro sports career. It comes with the territory. I love the story of Darche fighting to get to the NHL and I rooted for him to do well because of it, but at the end of the day, he's still set financially compared to what most people go through in real life. The average worker in Quebec makes maybe 20-30k, not 60k and certainly not 500-600k. If you work for 40 years, that would mean you make about 1M in your lifetime. Let's say Darche spent 8 years earning 30k in the AHL and 3 years making 600k in the NHL... that's still around 2M. Let's drop about 800k from that in extra taxes, and he's still made more in his short career than most people make ever. And when he's done, he has career options related to hockey and he's got the option of going back to school, doing promotional work or motivational speaking, or doing something else he wants to.I will certainly agree that he's not in a position to just blow money on a rich-and-famous lifestyle the way Crosby or Ovi could, but he's comfortable enough to retire if he chooses. I think a lot of NHLers in financial difficulty later on in life are in that spot because they blew their money in an immature fashion, and teams have taken steps to try and give young players financial counseling these days, so that they don't forget to budget for the future. Every one of us has to plan for retirement too, and if I spent all the money I made now, I'd be up a creek when I got to retirement too.

As I said, I think Cole is completely allowed to decide whether playing is worth it to him or not. I don't hold a grudge against him for that. But I'm not crying over the fact he has to leave an extra couple thousand dollars in escrow and I'm not crying for Darche or Bouillon or Paul Mara either.

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Hockey players don't stop working for the next 30 years of their life though, so they do get a salary like any other person + whatever they made through hockey. They are millionnaires, don't kid yourself. Plus, all that money you get into a very short period of time, which mean you can invest it and other stuff and gain from that for years. You can't do that if you earn 30-40k a year.

That's a point I think a lot of people miss, when you hear comments like "they have 10 years to earn a lifetime's salary" or whatever, it makes it sound like these guys are incapable of doing anything for the rest of their lives, like they are automatically entitled to early retirement. Darche can probably use his hockey skills to get a decent job in scouting or broadcasting or something, but if that fails he can go back to school, or even work flipping burgers if he has to.

The guys like Sid, Ovy, Kovalchuk, these guys will never have to worry about money for the rest of their lives. That's why you rarely see these types of player becoming broadcasters. It's almost always back up tender like Weekes, Jamie McLennan or grinders, 3rd 4th liners.

I don't think that's really fair, star players regularly take jobs after hockey even though financially they don't need them. Granted, they tend to be management / coaching positions, but I think that's more due to these jobs seeming more prestigious than broadcasting (the NFL, where broadcasts are far bigger than hockey, can actually get star players as broadcasters), plus a lot of grinders just seem great with the media, plus it's just a numbers game (there are more PJ Stocks than Sidney Crosbys), plus a lot of stars are international players (Andrei Markov is a great defensman, but I don't think we want him trying to call a hockey game in English :)). whereas most grinders are Canadian or American.

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