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2016-17 State of the Habs


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Wow a fan opinion poll!

What if the team is in a winning position/playoff position by the all star break and the opinion poll is positive?

Does that mean that all the fans in this recent poll were wrong?

Of course not, were fans, we like the flavour of the week. If the flavour of the week becomes winning when the season starts the mood in this form will be a complete 180.

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wow guy's how many times do you all have to say the same thing? there are probably hundreds of posts about MT and MB needing to get fired or ruining the team

Well, it is a discussion forum. I'd hope there was discussion. ;)

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-Hal Gill, who played with Alexander Radulov in Nashville, ponders how the Russian will mesh with Michel Therrien, and also comments on the departure of P.K. Subban. [La Presse]

-As fans continue to react to the trade of Subban for Shea Weber, one fan returned their jersey with a message directed to the Canadiens management written on it. [ESPN]

-While we search for reasons why Marc Bergevin and company decided to move Subban, Renaud Lavoie points to an example of what he believes the club felt was Subban "showing up" the organization. [SN]

-Jonathan Willis investigates the four types of July 1st signings, noting the Canadiens' signing of Radulov as a "low-risk, high-reward" deal. [SN]

-The hopes of the Habs - or any other team in the league - signing KHL star Vadim Shipachyov took a hit after news that he is expected to be at camp with SKA St. Petersburg next week. [Twitter]

-In case you missed it, the Habs made two minor signings yesterday, inking Philip Samuelsson and Chris Terry to two-way contracts. [EOTP | Samuelsson | Terry]

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2016/7/3/12088742/michel-therrien-alexander-radulov-relationship-pk-subban-trade-shea-weber-marc-bergevin

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What a week, huh Habs fans? Lars Eller was traded on Friday night at the NHL Draft, the Habs inked Andrew Shaw to a six-year deal, and, well, you know what else.

P.K. Subban was a franchise player. I will not get into comparisons between Subban andShea Weber because Weber is also an amazing talent — I am not disputing that. I won't get into the billion reasons as to why Subban is such an outstanding human being, because those are things that are well-known and appreciated by Habs fans. I certainly won't get into the comments brought forth after the trade regarding P.K.'s personality and the 'rifts' it caused in the locker room. What I want to discuss is the complete and utter disappointment I currently feel towards this organization.

Like I already said, this is a business. It is vital that a team does what it can to recruit and develop the best of the best. In this department, there are exactly two individuals that I have faith in: Trevor Timmins and Stephane Waite. Timmins continually pulls magic out of thin air, and I do honestly believe that he has chosen some exceptional talent over the years. Waite is basically a god among men when it comes to goalie development and has helped to turnCarey Price into the best goaltender in the league. Unfortunately, that is precisely where my faith in our development and coaching staff dies.

This last season had me asking the following question nearly every game: Who is really in charge here? Why do we, as fans, have to sit back and watch the likes of Alex Galchenyuk stunted because the coaching staff doesn't believe in his abilities? Why do we have to wait and wait for even a sliver of an update on our star goaltender's well-being while he was injured? Why do we have to listen to political responses from the General Manager, only to then have a franchise player traded away as if he did nothing for this team or for the city of Montreal?

I love the Montreal Canadiens. I will always love the Montreal Canadiens. This frustration and anger will pass, but until the right people are put in charge, I fear that nothing will change. The decisions made by the coaching staff are often questionable. The fact that the GM and owner so readily believe in everything the coaching and development staff have advised is worrisome. This little 'system' that the Candiens keep playing is not only hurting their chances at bringing the Cup back to Montreal, it's hurting their fans.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2016/7/3/12071944/a-bad-business-p-k-subban-trade-montreal-canadiens-managements-marc-bergevin-michel-therrien

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^^ I also read that interview from Gill. A few things he said:

- Michel Therrien runs a tight ship. He wants things done his way. Radulov might push his buttons, which will make things interesting.

- It's hard for me to say I'm surprised PK was traded. He and Therrien had their issues. I was in that situation too, it's hard to play for that type of coach...

- You have to let PK do his thing. In Nashville, he can play without the pressure of being in Montreal and without the critics getting on him for every mistake and turnover.

From the above, I take it Hal Gill is very much a PK supporter and didn't approve of the way Therrien handled him.

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Guest Regis2

-While we search for reasons why Marc Bergevin and company decided to move Subban, Renaud Lavoie points to an example of what he believes the club felt was Subban "showing up" the organization. [SN]

I remember seeing this video :lol:

At the 3 50 mark Subban announcing the starting line up

Max doesn't appear to happy with PK's choice of words :P

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always liked Hal Gill and felt he was a solid person

Agreed. Pretty level-headed guy. I think he always took a middle-ground approach to PK... he would tell Subban he needed to settle down and he would tell the coaches and other players to let PK be PK and appreciate him for what he was... I think the team really missed having a veteran like Gill, Koivu, Gionta, or even Prust to bridge the gap between Therrien and Subban. I don't think we had a veteran player left that played that middle ground role well. We had guys like Pacman and Plekanec who were pro-coach, anti-PK and we had guys like Markov and Price who were not big talkers and probably kept their heads out of things. But no vocal veteran to steady the ship, nor any assistant coach (like Muller or Gallant) to create that bridge either. That probably hurt us a lot.

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This is James Mirtle from the Globe and Mail on the state of hockey on Canada and how the teams here are being mismanaged:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/canadas-nhl-teams-lack-vision/article30701562/

Some notable things he wrote, in case you don't want to read the full thing:

- The general manager of a Canadian NHL team, in pursuit of the old-school hockey ideal of grit or size or some other intangible, moving key pieces and/or salary-cap space out in order to change the mix. This was the way in Toronto for years. One GM called it “truculence.” The next branded it “leadership.” What it really was was folly: Elevating Mike Komisarek, Dion Phaneuf, David Clarkson and many others into more than they ever were on the ice because of their good-in-the-room-ness.

- The Canadian NHL teams have been, by and large, horribly mismanaged. They are, generally speaking, not progressive organizations, not adept at change and not finding ways to outmanoeuvre their competition. Most are well behind in areas such as analytics.

- The trades Edmonton and Montreal made on Wednesday are not defensible ones. They could set those franchises back for years because in both cases they subtracted one of the best assets they had on the roster for an inferior replacement. Neither deal added much in the way of cap space, the NHL’s other key currency. Neither deal was made for purely hockey reasons, either. Rumours have swirled all season about both players’ personalities and fit “in the room,” with Hall blamed for getting “used to losing” and Subban for being an oversized character in a staid organization.

- Teams had quietly been offered Subban going back to at least January. His no-movement clause – which begins on Friday – loomed large in the mind of Canadiens GM Marc Bergevin.

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-Hal Gill, who played with Alexander Radulov in Nashville, ponders how the Russian will mesh with Michel Therrien, and also comments on the departure of P.K. Subban. [La Presse]

-As fans continue to react to the trade of Subban for Shea Weber, one fan returned their jersey with a message directed to the Canadiens management written on it. [ESPN]

-While we search for reasons why Marc Bergevin and company decided to move Subban, Renaud Lavoie points to an example of what he believes the club felt was Subban "showing up" the organization. [SN]

-Jonathan Willis investigates the four types of July 1st signings, noting the Canadiens' signing of Radulov as a "low-risk, high-reward" deal. [SN]

-The hopes of the Habs - or any other team in the league - signing KHL star Vadim Shipachyov took a hit after news that he is expected to be at camp with SKA St. Petersburg next week. [Twitter]

-In case you missed it, the Habs made two minor signings yesterday, inking Philip Samuelsson and Chris Terry to two-way contracts. [EOTP | Samuelsson | Terry]

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2016/7/3/12088742/michel-therrien-alexander-radulov-relationship-pk-subban-trade-shea-weber-marc-bergevin

Too bad businesses can't send the same message as this fan, they would have more influence. Management and the French media need to take a lesson from MLB's Cleveland Indians and Chicago Cubs. They built through the draft, added pieces when necessary and brought in a manager who can motivate the players and know how to use them.

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Wow a fan opinion poll!

What if the team is in a winning position/playoff position by the all star break and the opinion poll is positive?

Does that mean that all the fans in this recent poll were wrong?

Of course not, were fans, we like the flavour of the week. If the flavour of the week becomes winning when the season starts the mood in this form will be a complete 180.

I did not watch a single Habs game for nearly 7 years after the Roy trade. I was that disgusted with the organization. I'm almost that disgusted now. If Habs struggle out of the gate, it'll be a big "told you so" and off goes the TV.

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`The Montreal Canadiens failed to make the playoffs because they didn't score enough goals, and they allowed too many. An insultingly obvious idea, perhaps, but one for which a solution could not be found over the final five months of the campaign.


One area that needs improvement is the ineffable power play, and that's one of the areas that may have hurt their chances.`



http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/analysis/2016/7/4/12076180/reasons-for-montreal-canadiens-failed-season-power-play-alex-galchenyuk-pk-subban-desharnais


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-What isn’t is the fact that I am a Habs fan and have every right to say I don’t like general manager Marc Bergevin and coach Michel Therrien. I’ve had enough of people telling me to shut up and get with the program.



I watch at least part of almost all 82 games every season and it’s perfectly reasonable for me to say I’ve had enough of looking at the kindly ol’ coach glaring at his players, the officials and the fans every night at the hockey rink. And even the many Montrealers who hardly watch hockey are just as entitled to say they’re seriously bummed out that this refreshingly charismatic chap named Subban is being shipped out of town.



Sticking to just hockey for the moment, I firmly believe that Bergevin and Therrien are taking us on the road to nowhere. What has Bergevin done in the four years since he was hired to bring us closer to the Cup? Get Jeff Petry? That’s the best you can do to defend your GM?



He certainly didn’t make the team stronger by signing career under-achiever David Desharnais to a too-rich four-year $14-million contract in 2013. Nor did he take the Habs in the right direction by signing career playoff under-achiever Tomas Plekanec to a too-rich two-year $12-million contract extension in 2015. He basically made the two players almost untradeable.



Nor did Bergevin impress anyone by sitting on his hands in the foxhole this past season as his team went through maybe the most spectacular collapse in the history of the National Hockey League. Then to help a team that desperately needs forwards that score he went and traded one very good defenceman for another very good defenceman. Brilliant.



As for Therrien, let’s stick with one easy-to-understand case study. He puts his best buddy, wee Davey, out on the ice at every occasion this past season, including on the first wave of most every power play, even though Desharnais was scoring at a Scott Gomez-like pace. Meanwhile a genuine scoring star, Alex Galchenyuk, sat steaming on the bench. Insanity.



So, yeah, we have every right to be angry with our team. If they were winning Cups or even competing for Cups, you’d have a better argument to insist I toe the party line and drink the Habs media-relations Kool-Aid. But the team isn’t anywhere near that level and if you think they are then you didn’t watch much of the just-finished playoffs. We’re not an elite team. We’re a middling team with a great goalie (who is injury-prone).



It’s been 23 years folks. That’s bringing us up to Leafs-like ineptitude. You might be happy with that record, but I’m not. The fact is we haven’t competed consistently since Serge Savard was given the boot in 1995.



So, yeah, some of us are a little exasperated. But, hey, now that we’ve solved the P.K. problem, everything will be just fine right?



http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/montreal-canadiens/brendan-kellys-what-the-puck-habs-fans-have-every-right-to-be-angry


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i have been on this forum off and on for a while, i have heard the old i will not watch another game thing a bunch most still watch. if you are a fan of the team the individual parts are kind of unimportant as they come and they go. i will wait till we are around 30-40 games in to see what this latest bunch of changes makes before passing my own judgement on them i was a big fan of Subban as most here were but i can also see the possible improvements a guy like Webber can bring as well as the shortcomings. I feel that if we start very poorly MT will be gone i am sure he knows that and i am sure MB is feeling the pressure too. does anyone here honestly think a guy like Molson who is a huge fan of the team and a local will like walking down the street with fans flipping out if we lose badly next year? i see Muller taking over pretty quick if that happens. notice we have not seen much of MT? he is probably already feeling the heat! when he gets introduced for the first home game i bet he gets booed! and Muller gets a standing O! there is plenty of light at the end of the tunnel it is just a tunnel full of curves!

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i have been on this forum off and on for a while, i have heard the old i will not watch another game thing a bunch most still watch. if you are a fan of the team the individual parts are kind of unimportant as they come and they go. i will wait till we are around 30-40 games in to see what this latest bunch of changes makes before passing my own judgement on them i was a big fan of Subban as most here were but i can also see the possible improvements a guy like Webber can bring as well as the shortcomings. I feel that if we start very poorly MT will be gone i am sure he knows that and i am sure MB is feeling the pressure too. does anyone here honestly think a guy like Molson who is a huge fan of the team and a local will like walking down the street with fans flipping out if we lose badly next year? i see Muller taking over pretty quick if that happens. notice we have not seen much of MT? he is probably already feeling the heat! when he gets introduced for the first home game i bet he gets booed! and Muller gets a standing O! there is plenty of light at the end of the tunnel it is just a tunnel full of curves!

I'm just tired of the same thing happening over and over and our team never reaching a level where we're a real threat for the Cup. What's more frustrating is having the talent to actually make us a threat and then seeing that evaporate because of bad management. It's just such a waste. Why do we have to throw away 20-30 games next year to know if Therrien can rebound? He's been bad at coaching most of his stint here. He was bad in Pittsburgh. He was bad the first time he was here. He's frankly never been all that good at being more than a motivator. The possession numbers and the fact his teams show marked improvement in dictating play after he's replaced speak to that.

The sad thing is that last season was a disaster but at least it would have been worth something if it allowed us to put a coach in place who might actually take us to a Cup. Now, I just don't see us repeating the disaster to the same level we attained. Price will be back and that alone will keep us out of the basement. But will it be enough to elevate us to a Cup? No. So how long do we maintain the mediocrity and pretend that that's sufficient. How long is it okay to just make the playoffs or to luck our way through a round or two on the back of Carey Price but have a team with such obvious deficiencies in other areas that could be corrected by better coaching? And now we're not only left with Therrien, but the coach's inability to keep us afloat and his personality conflict with Subban has cost us our best position player. That simply adds insult to injury. To me, its not good enough to say we'll accept mediocrity for a few years and then make a change and start at the bottom again. This team has to strive to be at the top, not the middle of the pack.

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I'm just tired of the same thing happening over and over and our team never reaching a level where we're a real threat for the Cup. What's more frustrating is having the talent to actually make us a threat and then seeing that evaporate because of bad management. It's just such a waste. Why do we have to throw away 20-30 games next year to know if Therrien can rebound? He's been bad at coaching most of his stint here. He was bad in Pittsburgh. He was bad the first time he was here. He's frankly never been all that good at being more than a motivator. The possession numbers and the fact his teams show marked improvement in dictating play after he's replaced speak to that.

The sad thing is that last season was a disaster but at least it would have been worth something if it allowed us to put a coach in place who might actually take us to a Cup. Now, I just don't see us repeating the disaster to the same level we attained. Price will be back and that alone will keep us out of the basement. But will it be enough to elevate us to a Cup? No. So how long do we maintain the mediocrity and pretend that that's sufficient. How long is it okay to just make the playoffs or to luck our way through a round or two on the back of Carey Price but have a team with such obvious deficiencies in other areas that could be corrected by better coaching? And now we're not only left with Therrien, but the coach's inability to keep us afloat and his personality conflict with Subban has cost us our best position player. That simply adds insult to injury. To me, its not good enough to say we'll accept mediocrity for a few years and then make a change and start at the bottom again. This team has to strive to be at the top, not the middle of the pack.

Well said BT. As we all know, we are the best team (historically in terms of Stanley Cup wins) in the NHL and that is a lot to be proud of. However mediocrity is unacceptable IMO. It's not good enough to rest on past glories or just get to the playoffs, or to get the finals etc. Let's actually, finally secure that long overdue Cup and keep winning it consistently!

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The league is not the same as when our team was a dominant force and quite frankly we were pretty lucky the last time we won the cup! how many overtime games do you normally win in a row? the league has been structured to make it even and teams like Chicago Pittsburgh and LA had to suck for a very long time to get all those juicy draft picks! folks were losing there minds after one bad season here! imagine if we went on a wholesale rebuild and finished last for a few seasons so we could stock up on #1's it would be armageddon!

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Well we've been in a league where the odds of winning a cup went from 6 to 1; to 30 to 1 and yet some think we should win every year and ironically use stats to identify why we aren't .We still have 7 year before we are outisde the 1 in 30 chance since our last cup. If we are seriously expecting the same results we had in a 6, 12 or 24 team league we need to re-evaluate our perspectives. Many things have changed in this league over the years and we need to acknowledge that. The league has significantly better athletes with better skills than ever before. The margin for error is much slimmer as we found out last year.

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There are some flaws in the logic of the above posts:

1. Yes, the Cup is statistically harder to win than it was when there was a 6-team league. But that doesn't mean you should accept having a team that's not competitive. I posted this before, but our record from December onwards gave us a winning percentage that was to my knowledge lower than any team has had since we last won the Cup, including the expansion franchises. It's not just about winning the Cup, it's about how far below average we sunk last year.

2. Just because there are now 30 teams, doesn't mean we should aim to win a Cup every 30 years. In fact, if we start the clock at 1993, then if we were completely average, we should have one Cup in the next 30 years but that Cup should come around 15 years in, it doesn't mean we have to wait until the 30th year to win it... I also don't see us making a run in the next 7 years with this management team.

3. If we're going to go hard after statistical averages, then we should have a 1 in 15 or 1 in 16 chance of making the Cup finals. We haven't done that since 1993 despite the law of averages saying we should have done it.

4. There are 30 teams now, but there weren't 30 teams for the entire period of 1993 to date, so over part of that period, our odds at a Cup were technically 1 in 23 or 1 in 25 or so on.

5. Not all teams are created equal. The Habs are a cap team. They have deep pockets and big revenues and the ability to make themselves more competitive than a lot of other squads. Many teams can't spend that much, so in theory our odds should be better than those teams' chances if we managed our team efficiently.

6. Show me a line-up that has Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Plekanec, Markov, Petry, and so on and it should be better than a league average team. It should not be a lottery team, even without Price. As Bergevin said, the team would have made the playoffs if it played ,500 hockey without Carey, but it didn't. And that includes getting overtime losses for points, so you don't even have to play actual .500 hockey to get to .500. This team blew it last year, and the organization is pretending it's okay to just move on and assume the problem will fix itself by adding grit and not addressing the coaching/systems issues.

I'm not asking to win a Cup every year. I'm asking the team to stop ignoring blatantly obvious problems like our poor possession, lac of a system, and special team woes created by poor coaching. I'm asking for better personnel deployment that doesn't see Flynn and Byron playing ahead of Galchenyuk and Semin and McCarron, or Markov playing more than Subban, or Murray ahead of Beaulieu. If the team is going to make these awful decisions, then it's going to get criticized. If the team made smarter decisions and played hard and came up short of a Cup, then fine. But it's a bigger problem to know you have the assets to be a good team and then see those chances wasted on bad coaching and a blind eye to that bad coaching.

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Let's not forget. Since the Habs last won the Cup in 1993 the following teams have won it MORE than once since then:

Detroit- 4 times!

New Jersey Devils- 3 times!

Colorado- 2 times!

Pittsburgh- 2 times!

Los Angeles Kings- 2 times!

Chicago- 3 times in less than a decade! (since 2010)

Surely we can set the standard to at least match that pace let alone exceed it!

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Let's not forget. Since the Habs last won the Cup in 1993 the following teams have won it MORE than once since then:

Detroit- 4 times!

New Jersey Devils- 3 times!

Colorado- 2 times!

Pittsburgh- 2 times!

Los Angeles Kings- 2 times!

Chicago- 3 times in less than a decade! (since 2010)

Surely we can set the standard to at least match that pace let alone exceed it!

Thanks for the summary. It would be nice to see is up there. Twice in 24 years would sound alot better than what we have now.

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Let's not forget. Since the Habs last won the Cup in 1993 the following teams have won it MORE than once since then:

Detroit- 4 times!

New Jersey Devils- 3 times!

Colorado- 2 times!

Pittsburgh- 2 times!

Los Angeles Kings- 2 times!

Chicago- 3 times in less than a decade! (since 2010)

Surely we can set the standard to at least match that pace let alone exceed it!

And I remember well how poorly those teams place for years before they got all the juicy draft picks that made them what they are. There are plenty of ways to look at how things played out for us here in Montreal. after Savard and Demers got canned we went through rookie coaches and Gm's lots of false starts and the team got sold a couple of times. Before this season we had been doing well getting stronger each year last season was a blip in my opinion. I know I will get roasted for that opinion by the group that hates the current group running the team for the various reasons that they do but it is how I see it. I maintain that if we were bottom dwellers for 10 years and loaded up on top notch draft picks like some of the teams that are being used to show how poorly we are doing we would be at the very least as good as they are. imagine if we had just had the the two last #1 draft picks! pretty sure we would be looking pretty good with McDavid and Mattews! this team is dammed to never be able to blow it up and do a draft pick rebuild it will never happen. I think that at the end of the coming season we will be feeling a lot better about our team, although I will still miss the flash that PK brings to the ice I think we are a better team right now and for the next 3-4 years
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