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2016-17 State of the Habs


BigTed3
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He stated Weber fit the bill for a guy who moves the puck and makes quick plays, but the implication of "that's not what we're looking for" when referring to Subban is that Subban isn't good at moving the puck quickly. he also referred to Subban as an "offensive defenceman" and a "risk-taker." So once again, I'll ask how Subban was labeled with those designations?

Referring back to actual objective measures, Subban is a better defensive defenceman that Weber. He gets on more loose pucks in his own zone, he has a higher rate of successful completed plays coming out of his own zone, he has more time in control of the puck, he has a higher Corsi relative to his team... sure, he's flashy with the puck and he occasionally skates end to end, but I don't see how that makes him a risk taker or an offensive specialist. The implication is that Subban falls in the same category as a player like Mark Streit or Marc Andre Bergeron, guys who really had offensive skill but didn't offer much in their own zones. Even Erik Karlsson gets beat more often and has worse defensive stats than Subban, but I haven't heard anyone labeling Karlsson a risk to his team.

I get your point that Weber passes the puck more, whereas Subban skates it out himself more frequently, but Subban is still successfully clearing his own zone at a higher rate than Weber and he's been doing that in a system which is clearly flawed. The Habs frequently go for long bomb passes (which have a low success rate) and most of the Habs D were in the top echelon for turnovers, with all of the regulars having worse turnover rates than Subban. If we're going to bash Subban for turning over the puck and being a risk taker, then you need to bash Markov and Emelin and Petry and Beaulieu for turning the puck over at even higher rates. You have to bash Weber for turning the puck over at a higher rate. And Karlsson. You need to bash Therrien for having a system that provides no puck support for the defenceman trying to clear his own zone, forcing him to play the puck to the other team directly or else try a low percentage pass deep down the ice. Those aren't Subban issues. Those are systems issues. Subban's absolute numbers are higher because he has the puck so much more, but that's the end of his implication in the team's defensive flaws. It's just madness to single him out, which is what MT and MB and some media people have done.

Price is wrong when he says the team doesn't need a player who plays Subban's game. Every team benefits from a guy with a high percentage of successful plays in his own zone. Who cares if it's a pass or a skate out? He's getting the puck out of danger and maintaining possession going up ice. We see the benefits of this in terms of Corsi. With Subban on, we frequently had Corsi's in the 55-60% range last year and Corsi's of 30-40% without him on. What he's doing was working. What wasn't working was Therrien's assessment that this was bad for the team. Therrien might have a better appreciation for a guy who passes well, but let's say Player A skates the puck out successfully 40% of the time he has the puck, passes it out successfully 30% of the time, and turns it over 30% of the time. And let's say Player B skates it out successfully 15% of the time, passes it out successfully 50% of the time and turns it over 35% of the time. And let's say Player A generates a better Corsi relative to the rest of his team. That's something akin to what we're looking at with Subban and Weber. We can argue about whether skating or passing it out is better, but Subban has a higher overall success rate all things combined AND his method of doing things is leading to a better shot attempt ratio for his team, so we're seeing the endpoint of that working well too. I agree with Price that Subban and the team's view of what works didn't gel. But that's more because the coach's view of what works doesn't mesh with what the stats are showing and what actually led to on-ice success.

Yup. It's all damage control at this point. Management getting key players to parrot the party line in order to justify a bad decision, a bad trade and a bad system.

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trade is what it is , let's get the season started and see how she goes.

I still think MT and his Assistants should have been shown the door a long time ago . He's worn out his welcome . Only CP can make him look good

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/06/canadas-babcock-gushes-over-canadiens-shea-weber

Canada's Babcock gushes over Canadiens' Shea Weber

Just physically, he’s man-mountain,” Babcock said on Tuesday. “When he looks at you, you know (he means) business. He’s as good a human being as I’ve ever been around, period. So he doesn’t have to say much, all he’s got to (do) is look at you and you snap into shape. He makes you a better coach.

“If you haven’t been cross-checked in the ribs by him you find out what that is, too. He cuts a big swath out there. He shoots it so hard no one wants to stand in his lane.

“But what I like about him best is when he walks in the dressing room you know it’s business. And so he’s a culture-type person. He makes your franchise better when he walks in the door. Bar none.”

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Ya know,,,, we all (or most of us), dislike how M.T. coaches the Habs. Now, can you imagine how M.T. would have coached this man, in a time when all D-men were supposed to stay at home? Doug Harvey won 7 Norris Trophys,,,, helped win 6 Stanley Cups,,, made 11 All Star appearances, and voted into the HHOF in 1973.

What I'm getting at is the fact that M.T. is a dinosaur, and the new NHL, (well, actually about 4-5 years ago), has passed him by. I wouldn't want him to coach pee-wee.

Listen to Dick Irvin Jr.'s commentary.

The only reason he was traded to the Rags was because he was one of the first to help organize the NHLPA.

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By the standards of what MT and MB and now Carey Price have said, then we should believe that players like Harvey, Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey, Ray Bourque, Erik Karlsson, Phil Housley, Brian Leetch, and PK Subban have no place in the NHL. The concept they're proposing is that puck-carrying defencemen just don't fit into Michel Therrien's system and therefore should be traded for "safer" players. What does that say about your system and your coach if he finds himself unable to make those players work out? It doesn't tell you the player is the problem, it tells you the coach is the problem.

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By the standards of what MT and MB and now Carey Price have said, then we should believe that players like Harvey, Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey, Ray Bourque, Erik Karlsson, Phil Housley, Brian Leetch, and PK Subban have no place in the NHL. The concept they're proposing is that puck-carrying defencemen just don't fit into Michel Therrien's system and therefore should be traded for "safer" players. What does that say about your system and your coach if he finds himself unable to make those players work out? It doesn't tell you the player is the problem, it tells you the coach is the problem.

If you asked any coach in the NHL,,, more than 90% (if not all), would love to coach PK. and have him on their team, even Babcock.

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Interesting read

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/23-minutes-shook-hockey-world/

Think PK is bitter :lol:

Last week, he Tweeted a photo of himself with Scott Gomez, including a written tribute to the newly retired ex-teammate.

Alert fans noticed the Canadiens stickers from their practice helmets were photoshopped out of the picture.

https://twitter.com/pksubban1?lang=en

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Interesting read

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/23-minutes-shook-hockey-world/

Think PK is bitter :lol:

Last week, he Tweeted a photo of himself with Scott Gomez, including a written tribute to the newly retired ex-teammate.

Alert fans noticed the Canadiens stickers from their practice helmets were photoshopped out of the picture.

https://twitter.com/pksubban1?lang=en

HAHAHAHA. Re the last tweet. Now,,, who photo shopped those stickers off the helmets? <_<

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This is fun! it is interesting to me to see how many way's this trade is being spun on both sides of the table! at the end of the day it would have been nice to have both players but we can't have nice things here it seems.

Absolutely, you can spin the story a little one way or the other. You can do that with anything.

Agreed with you that having both players here would have been great. The debate here isn't really whether Weber is a good player. He's a clearcut #1 defenceman in my opinion, and he will be for several more years. I have absolutely no problem with Weber being on the Habs, just as I have no problem with Desharnais or Emelin or Byron or so on being used in the right roles. My beef is 100% with the treatment Michel Therrien afforded Subban and the decision by Marc Bergevin to trade Subban based mainly on personality rather than skill, as well as his repeated lies to fans and the media.

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Excerpt from article titled 'Five bold Montreal Canadiens predictions' by the hockey writers' Ryan Szporer:

5) Habs Will Stay Healthy 4) Radulov Will Hit 60 Points 3) Pacioretty Will Hit 40… Finally 2) Canadiens Will Win the Atlantic Division 1) Too Much Credit Will Be Given to Weber

http://thehockeywriters.com/5-bold-montreal-canadiens-predictions-for-2016-17/

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Excerpt from article titled 'Five bold Montreal Canadiens predictions' by the hockey writers' Ryan Szporer:

5) Habs Will Stay Healthy4) Radulov Will Hit 60 Points3) Pacioretty Will Hit 40… Finally2) Canadiens Will Win the Atlantic Division1) Too Much Credit Will Be Given to Weber

http://thehockeywriters.com/5-bold-montreal-canadiens-predictions-for-2016-17/

On #1, that, I'm sure will be done by Bergevin and Therrien. <_<

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On #1, that, I'm sure will be done by Bergevin and Therrien. <_<

I agree on that assessment. I mean heck, even Babcock, intrepid coach of one of our rival teams got into lavishing his endless praises upon Weber. A tad bit of overkill IMO. As the old Shakespearean quote goes: The lady doth protest too much methinks. ^_^

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A good read from Jack Todd on Pacioretty and Subban and the double standards put on display by the World Cup:

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/jack-todd-high-risk-hockey-and-prodding-pacioretty

"Because in the NHL, whether it’s the regular season or the Toronto Cup, there are one set of rules for P.K. Subban — and another set for everyone else."

Racism, plain and simple.

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what's up with this

Marinaro: Pacioretty doesn't deserve Therrien's alleged comments

Tony Marinaro weighs in on reports that Michel Therrien called Max Pacioretty the "worst Captain in Montreal Canadiens history".

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/marinaro-pacioretty-doesn-t-deserve-therrien-s-alleged-comments-1.565989

According to Michel Vileneuve, Therrien had told a few people that Pacioretty is the worst captain in Habs history

http://www.hockeyinsideout.com/news/rough-beginning-for-max-pacioretty-and-season-hasnt-even-started

This is going to be a longgggg season

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It's just impossible to know what's going on in the room, but something just doesn't sit right with respect to Therrien. We know he's publicly ragged on players like Briere, Subban, PAP, Eller, Galchenyuk, Semin, and so on. He seemed to be tougher on those guys than others. He was also very vocal and outspoken about certain guys like Subban before he became coach. When he was coach of the Penguins, he also had that famous speech about how bad his defence was and how they wanted to be the worst defensive squad in the league. Point being that Therrien seems to have very little problem being harsh on certain players and calling them out in public.

It's a little bizarre to see Pacioretty be one of those guys. In this case, I'd agree with the point that Pacioretty has been pretty weak in his position as captain. It's true. Is he the worst in team history? That's a pretty hard statement to make. But it's quite surprising for a coach to call out his captain like that. It just doesn't seem to have any real benefits. Then again, making Subban his whipping boy didn't make sense either. I don't know about Villeneuve's reliability but this one just seems fishy, even for Therrien.

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It's just impossible to know what's going on in the room, but something just doesn't sit right with respect to Therrien. We know he's publicly ragged on players like Briere, Subban, PAP, Eller, Galchenyuk, Semin, and so on. He seemed to be tougher on those guys than others. He was also very vocal and outspoken about certain guys like Subban before he became coach. When he was coach of the Penguins, he also had that famous speech about how bad his defence was and how they wanted to be the worst defensive squad in the league. Point being that Therrien seems to have very little problem being harsh on certain players and calling them out in public.

It's a little bizarre to see Pacioretty be one of those guys. In this case, I'd agree with the point that Pacioretty has been pretty weak in his position as captain. It's true. Is he the worst in team history? That's a pretty hard statement to make. But it's quite surprising for a coach to call out his captain like that. It just doesn't seem to have any real benefits. Then again, making Subban his whipping boy didn't make sense either. I don't know about Villeneuve's reliability but this one just seems fishy, even for Therrien.

Therrien and his lil buddy MB are the worse thing that has happened to this team since the Patrick Roy VS Mario Tremblay debacle. It's an embarrassment and a constant eyesore to this team and its history.

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. I don't know about Villeneuve's reliability but this one just seems fishy, even for Therrien.

Maybe MT had a few too many and started yapping, and you wonder why some players don't want to play here when people allege certain things are said

https://twitter.com/TonyMarinaro

Michel Villeneuve says 8witnesses (@ Golf Tourney) heard Therrien say Pacioretty worst captain in Habs history U say

and then there's

https://twitter.com/BWildeCTV

Nathan Beaulieu Retweeted Tony Marinaro

I have 23 eye witnesses that think differently

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