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2016-17 The Rumors Thread


BigTed3
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31 minutes ago, Manatee-X said:

It's true.  Tavares/Patches is a bit of a funny thing for me.  On the one hand you've got Tavares; star player, face of the franchise and former #1 pick.  If you were to say that I could get him for Patches it seems on the surface to be a complete no-brainer.

But then while I'm reading Ted's post I'm thinking "you know, this is really making Max sound pretty great - why are we looking to trade him again?".  Sure Tavares plays centre and that's a more desirable position, but it's not like we've got a whole bunch of wingers waiting to take over Patches' spot (and it looks even worse if Radulov decides not to sign next year).  And Tavares is a superstar name, but that comes with a superstar price tag.  Even once their current contracts are over who thinks that Tavares will be making less money?  Not me.

So if you take away the name factor you end up with two guys with similar production, but with one making way less money.  Do we even want to make that trade straight up?

I agree with you and ramcharger that Pacioretty's worth as a trade chip tends to be under-valued, and objectively, as I posted, his scoring numbers and contract make him a very desirable commodity. But as a whole, Tavares has two things on Pacioretty:

1. The pedigree. He's a #1 pick, he was a superstar in junior, he's been a scoring machine on some really bad teams... people will always think they value that more than a guy who came to the top after working his way through the ranks out of the limelight. Tavares also tends to score more highlight-reel type goals, whereas Pacman doesn't really do the dipsy-doodle through the entire team thing, he just shoots the puck and scores but with much less fanfare.

2. Tavares is a center. No matter how many ways you cut it, centers will always be valued more for the same production and that's probably the way it should be. Think of other elite scoring wingers of late... Phil Kessel, Patrick Kane, Tomas Vanek, Brad Marchand, Jaromir Jagr, Rick Nash. The market for those guys is a little bit lower than it is for counterparts like Sidney Crosby, Steven Stamkos, Jonathan Toews, Connor McDavid, Patrice Bergeron, and so on. Why? Because center is traditionally a harder position to play. It requires better physical conditioning and skating ability to be able to get up and down the ice quicker. It requires skill at taking draws. It requires more defensive awareness and a certain ability to manage the ice and establish the right positioning. It's just a more complicated thing to do well.

So Pacioretty can score just as many goals as Tavares, and in theory, their skill level and ability to score goals going forward is likely going to be pretty close. I don't think their goal totals this year and for the next 2-3 years are going to be far off from one another. But if we were to swap them one-for-one, it's a lot easier for a coach here to stick Lehkonen or Hudon or Scherbak or another young kid on Tavares' wing and tell him to just play his game and let Tavares runt he show. It's much harder for a coach to tell McCarron or Hudon they're centering the first line between Pacioretty and Gallagher and expect them to play well right off the bat. There's more of a learning curve there. So skill-wise, production-wise, I think Pacioretty is underrated compared to Tavares for Point 1 I made above. But in terms of value to the team and the ability to build around him, I fully understand and agree with the concept that a center gets a boost because of the position he plays. To a lesser degree, that's one of the reasons I see more value in Eller than Shaw and more value in Halpern/Metropolit/White/Mitchell than in 4th line wingers we've brought up. So in a trade, I think it's fair for the Isles to ask for another piece, like a McCarron or Scherbak or Juulsen or Beaulieu or so on, but I wouldn't be giving up too much more than that to get it done.

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Dont think we need a #1 center , Galchenyuk will fill that role , we do however need a number 2 Center and 2-3 top 6 wingers , id much rather they look for those needs rather than blow the team up chasing a Tavares type player. Bring in some players like Grigorenko/Yakupov and see if any stick and try to make a move for a RNH type 2nd line center.

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Things are really blowing up in Colorado... lots of talk that the team has lost motivation and that Joe Sakic might be blowing up the core. I think that's a perfect situation to try and swoop in and go after one of their stars, be it Duchene, Landeskog, or MacKinnon.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Things are really blowing up in Colorado... lots of talk that the team has lost motivation and that Joe Sakic might be blowing up the core. I think that's a perfect situation to try and swoop in and go after one of their stars, be it Duchene, Landeskog, or MacKinnon.

Just read the Denver Post article on the Avs, and it sure does seem as tho the Avs are in free fall. Sakic hasn't brought the team up from the depths and now his players are speaking out about morale. Lord knows what the players are thinking privately. If Sakic isn't canned soon, he should be stockpiling picks and selling the older players for younger players. 

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1 hour ago, kinot-1 said:

Just read the Denver Post article on the Avs, and it sure does seem as tho the Avs are in free fall. Sakic hasn't brought the team up from the depths and now his players are speaking out about morale. Lord knows what the players are thinking privately. If Sakic isn't canned soon, he should be stockpiling picks and selling the older players for younger players. 

His core players aren't even that old, but they clearly need something to shake up the backbone of the team. It sounds like Duchene is the player most likely to be used for that purpose.

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According to Dany Dube, he believes Bergevin is working on a big trade and that we should expect to see something in the next couple of weeks (i.e. before Galchenyuk returns). His guess is that there may be something in the works with Dallas on account of the fact he has seen numerous Stars' scouts following the Habs around of late. His thought is that MB will trade for one of the Stars' top 6 forwards.

If we look at Dallas' roster, Hemsky is out longterm with an injury and Sharp is currently out with a concussion, so it's not like they're overflowing with depth. Their goaltenders have been heavily criticized, but we don't really have anything to offer them there that will help as an upgrade. So my guess is that any trade, given the Stars plan on being competitive now as well, would be a roster player from our end (likely a defenceman) in exchange for a forward from their team. You'd have to figure Seguin and Benn are untouchable. So who does that leave us? Korpikoski and Eaves aren't much of an upgrade for us. So that would leave Hudler, whom we didn't show much interest in when he was a UFA, and Spezza, whose 7.5M price tag for the next 3 years is not a contract we should be looking at acquiring unless Dallas is eating half of that. Roussel is a French-speaking player, which we know interests MB, but he's not a top 6 guy. So are we waiting for Sharp to get healthy? MB knows him from his Chicago days. Or is it possible the target is Cody Eakin, who's probably a player who makes more sense for us...

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33 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

Man, there's a lot of bad there. I don't know that I want any of those players.

Yup. I wouldn't mind Cody Eakin, but he's a 3rd line player in my opinion. Jason Spezza could be a 2nd line center, but he's drastically overpaid for his age. I'd of course gladly welcome Seguin or Benn, but I don't think we'll ever get one of those two. I'd stay away from Sharp, Roussel, and Hudler.

To me, we're better off looking for a deal with a team like the Oilers or Avs or Canes or Canucks, someone who isn't really going to be close to winning soon. I'm much more interested in Duchene, RNH, Skinner, etc. than anyone the Stars will be making available. As I've noted before, I also really like the thought of adding Couturier, but Philly's going to want something back in return. I really think MB's best play here is to move Emelin. His value has never been higher, we don't really have the option of protecting him in the expansion draft (I'd go Weber, Petry, Beaulieu over him), and he is one guy who could bring value back here who we could afford to lose (I'm ok going Beaulieu, Markov, Barberio down the left side).

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On 12/24/2016 at 10:47 AM, BigTed3 said:

Yup. I wouldn't mind Cody Eakin, but he's a 3rd line player in my opinion. Jason Spezza could be a 2nd line center, but he's drastically overpaid for his age. I'd of course gladly welcome Seguin or Benn, but I don't think we'll ever get one of those two. I'd stay away from Sharp, Roussel, and Hudler.

To me, we're better off looking for a deal with a team like the Oilers or Avs or Canes or Canucks, someone who isn't really going to be close to winning soon. I'm much more interested in Duchene, RNH, Skinner, etc. than anyone the Stars will be making available. As I've noted before, I also really like the thought of adding Couturier, but Philly's going to want something back in return. I really think MB's best play here is to move Emelin. His value has never been higher, we don't really have the option of protecting him in the expansion draft (I'd go Weber, Petry, Beaulieu over him), and he is one guy who could bring value back here who we could afford to lose (I'm ok going Beaulieu, Markov, Barberio down the left side).

In your opinion, which one of those teams is in dire need of someone like Emelin? 

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1 hour ago, loyalhabsfan said:

In your opinion, which one of those teams is in dire need of someone like Emelin? 

I think Emelin's value on the trade market would actually be very high right now. The number of teams looking for D men is always relatively high, and now that Emelin is having a good season, he's in the category of sought-after players. Dallas is almost certainly looking for an upgrade on D. Edmonton needs lots of help there and Chiarelli reportedly likes Emelin given how well he's played against the B's in the past. However, the Oilers do have some good young D men now and may be willing to be patient, given they're not going to win a Cup this year. I think the longer the season goes on, the more a Cup contender might reach out to us about Emelin. I can see a team like Philly or Pittsburgh or Chicago being interested, for example. In any case, I think he's going to have value.

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On 12/26/2016 at 6:34 AM, BigTed3 said:

I think Emelin's value on the trade market would actually be very high right now. The number of teams looking for D men is always relatively high, and now that Emelin is having a good season, he's in the category of sought-after players. Dallas is almost certainly looking for an upgrade on D. Edmonton needs lots of help there and Chiarelli reportedly likes Emelin given how well he's played against the B's in the past. However, the Oilers do have some good young D men now and may be willing to be patient, given they're not going to win a Cup this year. I think the longer the season goes on, the more a Cup contender might reach out to us about Emelin. I can see a team like Philly or Pittsburgh or Chicago being interested, for example. In any case, I think he's going to have value.

I still think we could possibly get RNH straight up for Emelin.   That would bridge the gap between Galchenyuk and the rest of our centres and give us:  Galchenyuk-Nugent Hopkins-Danault-Plekanec-Mitchell.   Not too shabby.

We could potentially turn around & move Plekanec or DD for another defensman although you wouldnt get much for either. Maybe a long-shot prospect like Meloche or Mironov from Colorado. Not sure what teams would be looking for either a DD or a Pleks though.  Maybe you could get an impending free agent for one - like Brian Campbell or Franson. 

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  1. At this point DD would fetch next to nothing as a UFA, But Plekanec would add some cap space to make room for a big trade. I don't think Emelin is going anywhere and see  trades that for a top six  UFA.  Hanzel Sharp and Jagr are the ones I would try to deal for with Jagr being the first choice. I think he would jump at the opportunity to come here as soon as it becomes apparent Florida is not making the playoffs. Hopefully that happens soon. Any other moves may be too expensive at this time but trading potential UFA's is never a bad idea.
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9 hours ago, Habberwacky said:
  1. At this point DD would fetch next to nothing as a UFA, But Plekanec would add some cap space to make room for a big trade. I don't think Emelin is going anywhere and see  trades that for a top six  UFA.  Hanzel Sharp and Jagr are the ones I would try to deal for with Jagr being the first choice. I think he would jump at the opportunity to come here as soon as it becomes apparent Florida is not making the playoffs. Hopefully that happens soon. Any other moves may be too expensive at this time but trading potential UFA's is never a bad idea.

Jagr had expressed his desire to play with the Habs.

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8 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Jagr had expressed his desire to play with the Habs.

His contract for this year is $4 mil. and expires in June. How many more years does he have left? Would MB put out an offer to him? 

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1 hour ago, kinot-2 said:

His contract for this year is $4 mil. and expires in June. How many more years does he have left? Would MB put out an offer to him? 

For a man his age he is certainly still a BIG presence on the ice. Also he has made it clear he wants to play until he is 50 and that he wants to play for the Habs. Certainly I'd take the gamble with him if we could rid ourselves of a couple of dead-wood players. Without naming names I'm sure most of us know who those two players are.

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On 12/31/2016 at 0:56 AM, Habs=stanleycup said:

Jagr had expressed his desire to play with the Habs.

 

On 12/31/2016 at 9:17 AM, kinot-2 said:

His contract for this year is $4 mil. and expires in June. How many more years does he have left? Would MB put out an offer to him? 

The problem is, he (Jagr) has said this for years and in fact a few years back I think went as far as to actually call the team himself (well, his agent) to see if they wanted to extend a contract when he was UFA.  We've said no every time.  I have NO IDEA why not. Since we were first linked to him he's played about 300 games and has about 240 points.  

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23 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

The problem is, he (Jagr) has said this for years and in fact a few years back I think went as far as to actually call the team himself (well, his agent) to see if they wanted to extend a contract when he was UFA.  We've said no every time.  I have NO IDEA why not. Since we were first linked to him he's played about 300 games and has about 240 points.  

MB probably thought that Jagr was on the downside and didn't want to be saddled with a bloated contract, with very little return, but, Jagr has shown that he can play and contribute. IMO, Jagr is one of those rare players that can  contribute long after others have retired. He plays a strong game, similar to Rad. Regardless, MB will certainly not try to sign him now. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

 

The problem is, he (Jagr) has said this for years and in fact a few years back I think went as far as to actually call the team himself (well, his agent) to see if they wanted to extend a contract when he was UFA.  We've said no every time.  I have NO IDEA why not. Since we were first linked to him he's played about 300 games and has about 240 points.  

 

46 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

MB probably thought that Jagr was on the downside and didn't want to be saddled with a bloated contract, with very little return, but, Jagr has shown that he can play and contribute. IMO, Jagr is one of those rare players that can  contribute long after others have retired. He plays a strong game, similar to Rad. Regardless, MB will certainly not try to sign him now. 

Yup jagr is one of those rare gems of a hockey player. Even though he's older he continues to excel. I just can't reconcile the fact that MB would jump all over Weber and yet ignore a high caliber, proven player who desires to play for us like Jagr. Obviously it was all a matter of politics regarding Subban's trade for Weber, it's certainly getting more and more obvious that this was the case, but to ignore a player like Jagr to me, is just blatantly incompetent. (Unless of course Jagr doesn't fit in well with management's current politics).

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1 hour ago, kinot-2 said:

MB probably thought that Jagr was on the downside and didn't want to be saddled with a bloated contract, with very little return, but, Jagr has shown that he can play and contribute. IMO, Jagr is one of those rare players that can  contribute long after others have retired. He plays a strong game, similar to Rad. Regardless, MB will certainly not try to sign him now. 

Right, but he only ever wanted a year or 2 at a time. It made so much sense at the time, especially when we had basically no right wings. The first time was pre-Gallagher remember. I think Gio was our only legitimate top 9 right wing.

Now its 4 or 5 years later & the risk can only be worse than it was then. Id put MB's likelyhood of signing him at like .05%.     Maybe, if florida would trade him straight up for DD (Why would they?) then Mb would take him as a rental but for whatever reason he (MB) just doenst seem to see Jagr as a fit here. 

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A couple of mentions on twitter about Ty Rattie... placed on waivers by the Blues. He doesn't have a lot of NHL experience but he's been a good offensive player in junior and with the Wolves in the AHL. Had 6 points in 13 games last year, which isn't too shabby. Could be a guy who could fill in on the 3rd or 4th line, especially given lack of depth right now. He's got to be better than Andrighetto and especially Farnham, one would think.

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18 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

A couple of mentions on twitter about Ty Rattie... placed on waivers by the Blues. He doesn't have a lot of NHL experience but he's been a good offensive player in junior and with the Wolves in the AHL. Had 6 points in 13 games last year, which isn't too shabby. Could be a guy who could fill in on the 3rd or 4th line, especially given lack of depth right now. He's got to be better than Andrighetto and especially Farnham, one would think.

Yeah i saw that.  Very good vision & not terrible size.  I am really surprised they gave up on him so early. 

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8 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yeah i saw that.  Very good vision & not terrible size.  I am really surprised they gave up on him so early. 

Rattie was claimed by the Canes. Not surprised that a sharply-built team would make that move.

San Jose has put Matt Nieto on waivers today and he too could be an interesting project. He's a 24 year-old speedy winger, former 2nd round pick with some top 6 potential that has been hampered by injuries in recent years. He's had some bad luck (low PDO's in past few years) with decent Corsi numbers and low offensive zone starts with somewhat limited ice time.... all this suggests that there's room for improvement there if given more of an opportunity. Wouldn't be surprised if he could produce like a Paul Byron and score 12-15 goals as a bottom 6 player.

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