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2016-17 The Rumors Thread


BigTed3
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3 hours ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

IF you're looking to grab our 1st rounders and prospects, you're smoke signalling rebuild.  Counter as follows:

To NYI: Alex Galchenyuk, Nathan Beaulieu, Charlie Lindgren, 1st 2017, 1st 2018, MTL 2nd 2018, WSH 2nd, 2018

To MTL: John Tavares, Nick Leddy

Even if the Islanders were to agree to this trade you would need a general manager smart enough to do it and Montreal only has Bergevin .... it also would not help us win because we need a lot more help than just Tavares and Leddy if we are trading GallyA .... best move if we had a competent GM and owner, which we don't, is to blow this tire fire up ala the Leafs 2 years ago and start over.

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3 hours ago, eldag said:

Even if the Islanders were to agree to this trade you would need a general manager smart enough to do it and Montreal only has Bergevin .... it also would not help us win because we need a lot more help than just Tavares and Leddy if we are trading GallyA .... best move if we had a competent GM and owner, which we don't, is to blow this tire fire up ala the Leafs 2 years ago and start over.

:5187:

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23 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

If you want to swap Juulsen and Sergachev I have no problem , but I would definitely keep Pacs over Chucky. Pacs kills penalties and can be played in all situations where Chucky hasn't (after 5 years ) proven that he can be trusted in all situations. Yes Chucky has "potential" and world class skill but he hasn't shown consistency yet and may or may not? We would definitely have our #1 center and Danault could be a good #2 center, Let Mac give a try at # center. Call up Hudon to play wing and we have something to build around.

Nah, I'd rather trade Pacioretty before having to re-sign him to a multi-year deal with a massive Cap hit. Yeah, losing his goal scoring will hurt us but if that's what it takes to land a true No1 center, so be it. Tavares kills penalties too by the way. Trading Patches would leave us with Tavares, Galchenyuk and Danault down the middle, which is more than respectable. Scoring wingers do hit free agency, legit scoring centers not so much. I don't think McCarron will be 1st/2nd line center in the NHL, he can still be a useful winger though.

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11 hours ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

IF you're looking to grab our 1st rounders and prospects, you're smoke signalling rebuild.  Counter as follows:

To NYI: Alex Galchenyuk, Nathan Beaulieu, Charlie Lindgren, 1st 2017, 1st 2018, MTL 2nd 2018, WSH 2nd, 2018

To MTL: John Tavares, Nick Leddy

Wow....our cupboard is bare as it is. We have nothing on the farm. If we give up four prime draft picks we may as well start the rebuild now.  

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5 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Nah, I'd rather trade Pacioretty before having to re-sign him to a multi-year deal with a massive Cap hit. Yeah, losing his goal scoring will hurt us but if that's what it takes to land a true No1 center, so be it. Tavares kills penalties too by the way. Trading Patches would leave us with Tavares, Galchenyuk and Danault down the middle, which is more than respectable. Scoring wingers do hit free agency, legit scoring centers not so much. I don't think McCarron will be 1st/2nd line center in the NHL, he can still be a useful winger though.

I was thinking Mac at 3rd line center and you're assuming that Chucky can end up being a center which he may never be. After 5 years of flashes but no consistency I'll take Pacs over Chucky and there is nothing to say that Chucky will be a cheap cap hit in years to come. Also Pacs and Tavares together killing penalties would be even better, where at this time Chucky is more a one dimensional player. It would be nice to get Tavares though and you do have to give up something if you want to get something. 

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

Wow....our cupboard is bare as it is. We have nothing on the farm. If we give up four prime draft picks we may as well start the rebuild now.  

But we can't win without someone like Tavares so the logic works in the reverse too. I guess I just think Tavares really gives us a chance to win. He's exactly the type of player we are missing. I wouldn't want to give up 2 1sts AND Chucky though... everyone else is completely expendable. 

Just now, CaptWelly said:

I was thinking Mac at 3rd line center and you're assuming that Chucky can end up being a center which he may never be. After 5 years of flashes but no consistency I'll take Pacs over Chucky and there is nothing to say that Chucky will be a cheap cap hit in years to come. Also Pacs and Tavares together killing penalties would be even better, where at this time Chucky is more a one dimensional player. It would be nice to get Tavares though and you do have to give up something if you want to get something. 

Yes, I agree. I'm already basing all my decisions that Chucky is what he is (a borderline 1st ling Lw with poor defensive play). Otherwise I would not be so desperate to find someone to play the middle. We can win now with Tavares, we'd need a couple of things to fall into place but nothing unreasonable. A team with Price, Weber and Tavares is a damn good team! 

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9 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I was thinking Mac at 3rd line center and you're assuming that Chucky can end up being a center which he may never be. After 5 years of flashes but no consistency I'll take Pacs over Chucky and there is nothing to say that Chucky will be a cheap cap hit in years to come. Also Pacs and Tavares together killing penalties would be even better, where at this time Chucky is more a one dimensional player. It would be nice to get Tavares though and you do have to give up something if you want to get something. 

Yeah, I still think Galchenyuk should play center simply because he's the best (offensive) player we have at that position. No one else on this mediocre roster is close in terms of talent and somehow we're still talking about having to 'hide' him on the wing because other teams could potentially exploit his defensive shortcomings. If we had Malkin and Crosby on the roster I'd understand but we clearly don't, and we also don't need Galchenyuk to kill penalties IMO. We need players capable of finding the net with consistency and this type of player is much harder to come by than shutdown centers or penalty killers.

I agree that you have to give up something to get something in order to land a player like Tavares, so for me that guy is Pacioretty if it means we get to keep Sergachev.

 

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3 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Yeah, I still think Galchenyuk should play center simply because he's the best (offensive) player we have at that position. No one else on this mediocre roster is close in terms of talent and somehow we're still talking about having to 'hide' him on the wing because other teams could potentially exploit his defensive shortcomings. If we had Malkin and Crosby on the roster I'd understand but we clearly don't, and we also don't need Galchenyuk to kill penalties IMO. We need players capable of finding the net with consistency and this type of player is much harder to come by than shutdown centers or penalty killers.

I agree that you have to give up something to get something in order to land a player like Tavares, so for me that guy is Pacioretty if it means we get to keep Sergachev.

 

I agree to a certain extent... Galchenyuk could replace Pacioretty in terms of scoring at left wing also given the same opportunity.

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I dont think they would want him. Galchenyuk makes much more sense for islanders. 

If no trade happens i heard  on tsn radio that both Galchenyuk and MB think a one year deal is best option. He'd still be an RFA next year i believe (for the last time). I really dont see how you could sign a long term deal right now

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13 hours ago, habsisme said:

But we can't win without someone like Tavares so the logic works in the reverse too. I guess I just think Tavares really gives us a chance to win. He's exactly the type of player we are missing. I wouldn't want to give up 2 1sts AND Chucky though... everyone else is completely expendable. 

 

I'd love to have Tavares but not at the expense of creating massive holes throughout the team to get him. That would be pointless when we have no way of filling those holes.

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The negativity on the board is amazing. I agree that it's going to take some creativity to make us a contender, but it's not impossible. People act like acquiring Tavares won't even help us.

 

It will be hard to acquire JT, but if we can putt it off without giving up Sergachev, it would be HUGE. Swap Sergachev out of that offer and replace him with Juulsen and maybe someone else too, and we'd have to do it. It makes us a better team.

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I am surely no expert but don't you think trading players who never pan out is in fact a glaring failure in drafting players? All of these guys that leave because of god knows what reason is becoming alarming but on the other hand it's been happening forever. Ughhh

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2 hours ago, habby67 said:

I am surely no expert but don't you think trading players who never pan out is in fact a glaring failure in drafting players? All of these guys that leave because of god knows what reason is becoming alarming but on the other hand it's been happening forever. Ughhh

Yeah it happens to all teams to some extent, for every guy who pans out plenty just don't make it for one reason or another. we are hyper focused on our own teams so it seems catastrophic here! now don't get me wrong I feel we could doo much much better at development of our young talent and it has been a big issue under this regime

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1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yeah it happens to all teams to some extent, for every guy who pans out plenty just don't make it for one reason or another. we are hyper focused on our own teams so it seems catastrophic here! now don't get me wrong I feel we could doo much much better at development of our young talent and it has been a big issue under this regime

The question is: Is it our development of young players or are we selecting the wrong players in the first place?  

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40 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

The question is: Is it our development of young players or are we selecting the wrong players in the first place?  

probably a bit of both, I tend to like the selections when we make them then once they are with us for a bit things go south in many cases.

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31 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

probably a bit of both, I tend to like the selections when we make them then once they are with us for a bit things go south in many cases.

I believe Hockey is (not giving excuses for management all deal with it) very tough to determine actual talent level , because we draft at 18. Individuals develop at different rates. A mature big strong kid at 18 can dominate a league like the OHL or the Q. , because they play also with 15-16 years. I believe Mathews and our own Lehkonen both helped their own progress by playing where they did. In leagues against men and leagues that also stress defense. Usually offensive skills are "natural" for gifted players but learning the defensive side of the game and as Babcock say playing without the puck are harder to learn and take longer. In the other leagues where you can rack up points and increase your own draft ranking sometimes it's easy to do that hoping you can learn the rest on the fly. Druin in Tampa was sent down for those reasons and what their coach thought wasn't enough attention to defense. Fans always want the exiting players always fun to watch. Coaches are looking big picture and overall game. There are exceptions that are highly talented that jump right in. I really believe that's why some sure things because of point totals in juniors either don't make it or it takes more time or they end up in a different role in the NHL. Smart good players learn to do the things they need to stay at the next level or move up. Great talent is great size is great speed is great. As they say in the commercials knowing how to use it is "priceless" . Grestky wasn't the fastest or biggest or even the best stick handler, but he had the most "hockey smarts"!

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6 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

Yeah it happens to all teams to some extent, for every guy who pans out plenty just don't make it for one reason or another. we are hyper focused on our own teams so it seems catastrophic here! now don't get me wrong I feel we could doo much much better at development of our young talent and it has been a big issue under this regime

True. It just seems like it has been an eternity since we have come close to having a dominant team of any sorts. You would think the law of averages would kick in by now but a few not so bright moves haven't helped either. 

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I'm of two minds: 

Has the team been bad? aside from the year Carrey went down, we've been comfortably in the playoffs. I think we've built a really good team but are incapable of filling the most important position, #1 C. Take the middle out of the equation and compare our wingers, d, and goaltending to other teams. I'm guessing we will be top 10 (maybe top 5!) in the first two and #1 in goaltending obviously (though there are a handful of close seconds). Our problem is the middle. Plekanec got old and Chucky can't seem capable of playing that position. 

It's been quite sometime since we've been able to draft and develop good players though. I agree with that completely. Something has been off during MBs tenure. The drafting seemed to be good before then, so my guess is its development and maybe even just not giving guys a chance to play (Murray over Tinordi, DD over Chucky, Whomever over Hudon) it just seems to keep happening and I'm not sure why.... Despite that MB has built a team that's in playoffs COMFORTABLY every year. You can say that it's all price but it just isn't. He's a huge part of this team but with an average goalie this team still squeaks into the playoffs, in my opinion. 

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43 minutes ago, habsisme said:

.... Despite that MB has built a team that's in playoffs COMFORTABLY every year. You can say that it's all price but it just isn't. He's a huge part of this team but with an average goalie this team still squeaks into the playoffs, in my opinion. 

It is ALL price, IMO

with an average goalie this team would struggle to make the playoffs .

Look at 2 years ago .

Price missed the majority of the year and the team missed the playoffs . Condon goes to Ottawa , plays 40 games helps Ottawa make PO . Condon plays 50 + game with Montreal and they miss the playoffs .

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2 hours ago, Regis22 said:

It is ALL price, IMO

with an average goalie this team would struggle to make the playoffs .

Look at 2 years ago .

Price missed the majority of the year and the team missed the playoffs . Condon goes to Ottawa , plays 40 games helps Ottawa make PO . Condon plays 50 + game with Montreal and they miss the playoffs .

thats whats so disturbing...they KNOW this..and theyre ok with it. the plan this year was legitimately to win 16 1-0 games. its too disturbing for words.

anyway eklund is saying chuck for duchene, hockeyfeed says we are meeting with nolan patirick, indicating a potential trade at the draft to pick 1st or something i guess.

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^^ Grant it, Condon was a rookie with us so it's hard to say he's the same goalie now, with an extra year under his belt and a little more endurance to be able to play an NHL calendar. That said, I fully agree that an "average goalie" wouldn't have been enough two years ago, nor three years ago. In fact, someone already did that analysis and determined that if we had had the save percentage of the league-average starter (i.e. the 15h-16th best starter in the league), we would not have made the playoffs three years ago. It really was Carey who single-handedly turned us from a non-playoff team to a playoff team. Two years ago was just proof that that was the case.

I don't think we were as reliant on Price this past year, but we still were not good enough to be a contender without him. MB never addressed the need for two top 6 centers, even with one potential solution in house in Galchenyuk. The team continued to use journeymen scrubs over young talent, and we've seen that you simply need to be able to develop your own picks to make things work under the cap. Bergevin doesn't get that. He says he wants to build through the draft, but his actions say that his organization simply doesn't value the likes of Hudon, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, and so on. The only picks to really stick here under his tenure have been guys who bypassed the AHL and forced their way onto the big club without development. That has to change.

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3 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

thats whats so disturbing...they KNOW this..and theyre ok with it. the plan this year was legitimately to win 16 1-0 games. its too disturbing for words.

anyway eklund is saying chuck for duchene, hockeyfeed says we are meeting with nolan patirick, indicating a potential trade at the draft to pick 1st or something i guess.

Chucky for Duchene has been an obvious rumor around for a while. We all know MB overvalues things Duchene brings and undervalues Galchenyuk's skillset. So it's unfortunately another Weber-Subban scenario where we would get a desirable commodity but at the expense of a better one.

I saw the Patrick info too, that's been reported by some reputable media members. Maybe it means trade, but I think it's just good practice to meet with all the top guys. How many former top 5 picks have suddenly become available a few years later... Yakupov, Seth Jones, etc. It's a good move to meet with these guys and get a feel for them while you're legally allowed to talk with them. Find out what Patrick's like as a person and whether he'd ever consider playing here. Find out what he thinks his strengths and weaknesses are. It's free intel on your opponent's players, even if you don't draft them.

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4 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

^^ Grant it, Condon was a rookie with us so it's hard to say he's the same goalie now, with an extra year under his belt and a little more endurance to be able to play an NHL calendar. That said, I fully agree that an "average goalie" wouldn't have been enough two years ago, nor three years ago. In fact, someone already did that analysis and determined that if we had had the save percentage of the league-average starter (i.e. the 15h-16th best starter in the league), we would not have made the playoffs three years ago. It really was Carey who single-handedly turned us from a non-playoff team to a playoff team. Two years ago was just proof that that was the case.

I don't think we were as reliant on Price this past year, but we still were not good enough to be a contender without him. MB never addressed the need for two top 6 centers, even with one potential solution in house in Galchenyuk. The team continued to use journeymen scrubs over young talent, and we've seen that you simply need to be able to develop your own picks to make things work under the cap. Bergevin doesn't get that. He says he wants to build through the draft, but his actions say that his organization simply doesn't value the likes of Hudon, Beaulieu, Galchenyuk, McCarron, Scherbak, and so on. The only picks to really stick here under his tenure have been guys who bypassed the AHL and forced their way onto the big club without development. That has to change.

exactly, look at this finals....sissons, jarnkrok, guentzel...who are these guys?

these guys are draft picks who get put into positions to either do what theyre gonna do or not. the habs formula is to give you 8 minutes on the 4th line, pressbox, and back to the farm. 

how in gods name do we know so little about a guy like hudon who has done nothing but score proficiently in the AHL on a team that cant score to save their lives. like the carey thing, too disturbing for words

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2 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

exactly, look at this finals....sissons, jarnkrok, guentzel...who are these guys?

these guys are draft picks who get put into positions to either do what theyre gonna do or not. the habs formula is to give you 8 minutes on the 4th line, pressbox, and back to the farm. 

how in gods name do we know so little about a guy like hudon who has done nothing but score proficiently in the AHL on a team that cant score to save their lives. like the carey thing, too disturbing for words

Zero excuse for not having Hudon with the big club... he's proven himself repeatedly in the AHL. We called up tons of other players as well, so it's not like we didn't have the opportunity to call him up, and we simply needed offence desperately, and he could have given it to us. Ott? Martinsen? King? Flynn? These guys didn't give us any offence whatsoever.

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By my count the Habs have 15 players on their roster who WERE NOT brought up through their system. 15 players either signed as free agents or traded for. That, to me, is a testament to just how poorly we draft. Heck, surely our development isn't so bad we couldn't have at least developed 7 players to replace the 7 worst players on the roster. 

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