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2016-17 If I Were GM...


BigTed3
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I think you are mistaken if you still think that this trade is a tie so far. During playoffs I saw analytic stats about Subban that showed what a huge impact he had on the ice. It might not show in points but still his team created so much offense with him on the ice its unreal. in CF% he was 5th this season, his CA60 was 7th. I mean you probably can read all these stats much better than me. Unfortunatly I cant find the original post anymore. This article might be the closest to give a glimpse about the impact each of them had. http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/subbans-playoff-performance-canadiens-fans-asking/

I am happy for Subban and hope he wins it all and I better say nothing about our GM or former coach.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

The trade isn't bad because of the Preds playoff run. The trade was bad because we got the slower, older, less useful player on the worse contract. Weber is still a good player, Weber is a better powerplay quarterback, and then in my view, Subban is better at just about everything else AND he's younger, meaning we're likely to see that difference grow with time. Different story if we were acquiring Weber when he was 26. We didn't. We are getting 31 year-old Weber and 34 year-old Weber and 40 year-old Weber in this deal. There were ONLY two arguments Bergevin was able to come up with for justifying this trade:

1.Subban's attitude was a reason the Habs couldn't win.

2. The Habs could win now with Weber, so it was worth eating up the bad contract years of an aging Weber down the line.

This season's playoffs have proven MB's gamble on both to be far from the truth. The Habs look to be further from contention than when Subban was here, and Subban is clearly not hurting the Preds, just as he didn't hurt the Habs on their runs to two ECF's. In fact, Subban-Ekholm has been used as the Preds #1 pairing, playing the most minutes and being given the late-game shutdown role. Subban missed time for injury this year but he actually had more PPG than all but 10 of the D men ahead of him in the scoring race, including Weber. So he had a pretty decent year. He wasn't used as a 1st-wave PP guy most of the time, but if anything that speaks even more to how he was able to compensate by producing more at ES. So no, Subban wasn't a Norris candidate this year and the Preds didn't win the President's Trophy, but if Bergevin is blasting Subban for being a guy who ruins team chemistry and if Bergevin is justifying the trade by arguing the Habs win short-term while Preds win long-term, he's been wrong on both accounts, and that leaves him with zero justification for his biggest move... something many fans have been saying all along.

 

I agree with most of what you said but would we have been any better with Subban this year? I think it would have been a wash really, Webber or Subban make very little difference on this team because they are both good at the moment. to me it was a lateral move it did nothing to solve our main issue which is up front! sure in the later years of Webbers career it will be a bigger spread between them baring any major injuries to either of them but I don't understand the feeling that we lost right now. what we really need and have needed for decades really is a top notch center for the #1 line and more elite or at the very least better quality scoring forwards. 

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20 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree with most of what you said but would we have been any better with Subban this year?

Given how far superior Subban is with regards to 5-on-5 possession and scoring chances, I'd have to say we'd have been significantly better.

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I think gaining an offensive forward in Radulov helped us more than Subban would have over Webber. now if we had Subban and had made the deal to get Rads too then I think we would have been stronger offensively. Webber had to play with a pylon for most of the year Subban was on probably the best defence squad in the NHL it was strong before he got there he is a compliment to it as opposed to being the be all end all here which is what both he and Webber have to deal with in MTL.

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11 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

That's something that I don't think gets enough attention, even from Habs fans who like PK.  The whole time he was here the entire story line around him was "yeah he's a great and exciting offensive player, but he can't play defence!  My God, the spin-o-ramas!"

Well now look at him when he's given a chance.  He still makes the occasional dumb spin-o-rama mistake (he had a pretty bad one last night in fact) but he does so many little things so well to help the Preds get it out of their zone and down the ice.  Like you said, Ted, he's playing on Nashville's top defensive pairing and he's usually the first over the boards when it's time to kill off a penalty.  He's still generating some offense, sure, but moreso he's been stellar at limiting the chances of the other teams' top lines.

This was the biggest failing of MT and MB with regards to Subban, IMO (although the media can take some blame on this one, too).  They were so focused on "teaching" him to be responsible and to play the "right" way that they completely missed the fact that Subban, when allowed to actually move the puck somewhere other than up the boards, was the best defensive defenseman on the team.

That's the thing. Subban has always been under-valued defensively. He's great at getting on loose pucks, he's great at shielding the puck, he's very strong for his size at 1v1 battles, and he's excellent at getting the puck out of his zone. As I posted before, he had a lot of turnovers because he has so many touches of the puck, but he actually had a lower turnover rate than most elite defencemen when you adjust for how often he gets the puck.

Someone posted today that Subban has been tasked with shutting down Toews, Tarasenko, and Getzlaf in Nashville's first three series and those three top-tier scorers accounted for just 3 goals in 16 games. I remember when we first called him up how he won battles against Crosby and Malkin in the playoffs and how he's taken on and bettered the likes of Ovechkin and Marchand and Lucic. He's a rare combination of a guy who has great skating ability but also possesses a low center of gravity and power to be able to shut down just about any type of player. Weber matches up well size-wise and he's good at battling in front of the net and in the corners, but he doesn't get on loose pucks as well and he's simply slower in picking up coverage. His defensive ability is overrated because of the fact he throw thundering hits and blocks shots, but that doesn't mean he does other things well that actually prevent goals from being scored against you. Again, still a very good player, but not nearly as good as Subban.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

That's the thing. Subban has always been under-valued defensively. He's great at getting on loose pucks, he's great at shielding the puck, he's very strong for his size at 1v1 battles, and he's excellent at getting the puck out of his zone. As I posted before, he had a lot of turnovers because he has so many touches of the puck, but he actually had a lower turnover rate than most elite defencemen when you adjust for how often he gets the puck.

Someone posted today that Subban has been tasked with shutting down Toews, Tarasenko, and Getzlaf in Nashville's first three series and those three top-tier scorers accounted for just 3 goals in 16 games. I remember when we first called him up how he won battles against Crosby and Malkin in the playoffs and how he's taken on and bettered the likes of Ovechkin and Marchand and Lucic. He's a rare combination of a guy who has great skating ability but also possesses a low center of gravity and power to be able to shut down just about any type of player. Weber matches up well size-wise and he's good at battling in front of the net and in the corners, but he doesn't get on loose pucks as well and he's simply slower in picking up coverage. His defensive ability is overrated because of the fact he throw thundering hits and blocks shots, but that doesn't mean he does other things well that actually prevent goals from being scored against you. Again, still a very good player, but not nearly as good as Subban.

never forget...this is year 1. YEAR 1!!!! the only positive here is at least as a fan of subban, its gratifying to see him get his due finally. other than that....i just want to puke when i think about it. hope you're enjoying the playoffs bargain boy, looks good on you.

anyway, as far as what could actually be done to help, in the realm of possibility.....which i say because Id blow this whole thing up, and thats not happening.....

cam fowler looked great for anaheim this playoffs and is exactly what we need. id make a generous pitch

id overpay for oshie before i overpay for radulov

im hearing byron is drawing interest....SELL SELL SELL

and unlike many of you, im on board with trading chuck, as long as the return is good, and id be happy with duchene. chuck is done here. you might be afraid he will blossom somewhere else....he probably will. but it wont happen here. i think we screwed up his head and hes fed up. 

this team stinks. bergevin is gonna get another year to fix things, which he doesnt deserve, and all hes gonna do is lock up carey, lock up max and add a 4th liner. possibly trade chuck for duchene, probably trade bo for nothing. and this will be the habs for a good long while. a team that cant score, nothing special on d and will never win anything. ugh

 

 

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I think the Subban-Weber deal is close but I would have preferred to keep Subban. I don't understand people who hate Weber though, he's an elite defenseman and next year I could just as easily be saying we won the trade. 

At the end of the day Subban was traded because his team hated him. He was not chosen as captain and they did not nominate for the King Clancy (and that was just unbelievable). Who is to say who was right? None of us are in that dressing room and you just don't know unless you're there but no matter what players said to the media, he was clearly not liked. If I'm right (and I have to be otherwise why didn't they nominate him for the Clancy?) then for that reason alone Weber is the better player (and the shot, and the million in savings, and the physical defensive play etc). 

I'm ready to blow up this team and want to take drastic steps to get a Center. I am no fan of MB BUT its clear that the players on the team were not a fan of PK

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47 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I think the Subban-Weber deal is close but I would have preferred to keep Subban. I don't understand people who hate Weber though, he's an elite defenseman and next year I could just as easily be saying we won the trade. 

At the end of the day Subban was traded because his team hated him. He was not chosen as captain and they did not nominate for the King Clancy (and that was just unbelievable). Who is to say who was right? None of us are in that dressing room and you just don't know unless you're there but no matter what players said to the media, he was clearly not liked. If I'm right (and I have to be otherwise why didn't they nominate him for the Clancy?) then for that reason alone Weber is the better player (and the shot, and the million in savings, and the physical defensive play etc). 

I'm ready to blow up this team and want to take drastic steps to get a Center. I am no fan of MB BUT its clear that the players on the team were not a fan of PK

Actually it doesn't. It means you have a problem in your locker room, but that problem wasn't Subban, it was the person/people who perpetrated the idea that Subban was a poison and had to go. Those people were clearly Michel Therrien (who publicly bashed Subban repeatedly) and Marc Bergevin (who failed numerous times to stand up for PK and who low-balled him on several contract offers and refused to admit his worth). Maybe there were players too. Maybe Plekanec. Maybe Pacioretty. Maybe Price. Who knows. But I absolutely believe that Michel Therrien came into his job with the idea that Subban needed to be put in his place, and he did everything in his power to humiliate PK and make him a whipping boy. In public, Subban didn't react. He took his blows and he acted like a good team player. Was he like that behind closed doors? I don't know. But he wasn't the one who started the animosity, it was Therrien.

Look at Subban now. His teammates seem to love him. His coach and GM and owner have embraced his personality, and PK has stated publicly how much of a difference it is to have those people let him be who he is and not try to change him. It's very clear to me that Therrien and Bergevin are exactly what caused the problem, not Subban. And that doesn't in the least make Weber a better player. It simply means the Habs needed to have done better at managing assets.

Someone re-posted James Duthie's take on the trade from a year ago, where he stated he had never seen a divide as big as the one between public opinion of Subban and that of management. He argued that management wasn't able to adapt to the new NHL and that the problem was theirs in not being able to deal with Subban's personality. And that's the essence of it. Therrien failed. Bergevin failed. And to try and justify the trade at this point just doesn't make sense. We clearly got the inferior hockey player, and we clearly gave up a guy who by all accounts is NOT what stops your hockey team from winning. What is stopping us from winning is the culture created by Therrien and Bergevin.

 

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7 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Actually it doesn't. It means you have a problem in your locker room, but that problem wasn't Subban, it was the person/people who perpetrated the idea that Subban was a poison and had to go. Those people were clearly Michel Therrien (who publicly bashed Subban repeatedly) and Marc Bergevin (who failed numerous times to stand up for PK and who low-balled him on several contract offers and refused to admit his worth). Maybe there were players too. Maybe Plekanec. Maybe Pacioretty. Maybe Price. Who knows. But I absolutely believe that Michel Therrien came into his job with the idea that Subban needed to be put in his place, and he did everything in his power to humiliate PK and make him a whipping boy. In public, Subban didn't react. He took his blows and he acted like a good team player. Was he like that behind closed doors? I don't know. But he wasn't the one who started the animosity, it was Therrien.

Look at Subban now. His teammates seem to love him. His coach and GM and owner have embraced his personality, and PK has stated publicly how much of a difference it is to have those people let him be who he is and not try to change him. It's very clear to me that Therrien and Bergevin are exactly what caused the problem, not Subban. And that doesn't in the least make Weber a better player. It simply means the Habs needed to have done better at managing assets.

Someone re-posted James Duthie's take on the trade from a year ago, where he stated he had never seen a divide as big as the one between public opinion of Subban and that of management. He argued that management wasn't able to adapt to the new NHL and that the problem was theirs in not being able to deal with Subban's personality. And that's the essence of it. Therrien failed. Bergevin failed. And to try and justify the trade at this point just doesn't make sense. We clearly got the inferior hockey player, and we clearly gave up a guy who by all accounts is NOT what stops your hockey team from winning. What is stopping us from winning is the culture created by Therrien and Bergevin.

 

I don't disagree with you but my understanding is the players of each team nominate one of their peers for the award. PK had just committed to giving 10 million over ten years. He would have won the award had the habs players nominated him for the Clancy. Maybe Therrien started it, maybe Bergevin, maybe some of the old school journalist, maybe it was racism, maybe PK is obsessed with his brand, etc... but the players on this team chose not to acknowledge what he did - so at that point, I think it was the only move left. 

I think you're probably mostly right about how we got to that point though. It really is enough to make me want to throw in the towel and rebuild. I just don't like this team

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20 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I don't disagree with you but my understanding is the players of each team nominate one of their peers for the award. PK had just committed to giving 10 million over ten years. He would have won the award had the habs players nominated him for the Clancy. Maybe Therrien started it, maybe Bergevin, maybe some of the old school journalist, maybe it was racism, maybe PK is obsessed with his brand, etc... but the players on this team chose not to acknowledge what he did - so at that point, I think it was the only move left. 

I think you're probably mostly right about how we got to that point though. It really is enough to make me want to throw in the towel and rebuild. I just don't like this team

Agreed. I still like the team per se but I just don't buy into the culture of the club and the people running it. I don't like being brushed off as a fan. I don't like the jacked-up ticket prices and concession prices. I don't like being told that as an Anglophone I'm less important as a fan than a Francophone. I don't like being told that language politics are more important than winning. I don't like that Bergevin hires his friends and won't fire them. I don't like the way MB and MT have treated a lot of the skilled players. I don't like the way they treat the media and got angry every time someone asked them to justify their decisions. There's just a lot of contempt thrown out at us from Bergevin and his groupies. Fans want to win. Fans want a fun show and personality in the players and guys who put everything on the line for the team. We don't have that now. We have a collection of guys who don't win and who don't make it very fun to follow along. There are a lot of plain personalities on the team since we got rid of Subban and others. It's one thing if you win and dominate, you can justify the approach... but right now, the Habs are rude to their fans and they're oppressive towards certain players, and they're not that good. So until that changes, I agree, not really a team that's easy to get behind.

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Agreed. I still like the team per se but I just don't buy into the culture of the club and the people running it. I don't like being brushed off as a fan. I don't like the jacked-up ticket prices and concession prices. I don't like being told that as an Anglophone I'm less important as a fan than a Francophone. I don't like being told that language politics are more important than winning. I don't like that Bergevin hires his friends and won't fire them. I don't like the way MB and MT have treated a lot of the skilled players. I don't like the way they treat the media and got angry every time someone asked them to justify their decisions. There's just a lot of contempt thrown out at us from Bergevin and his groupies. Fans want to win. Fans want a fun show and personality in the players and guys who put everything on the line for the team. We don't have that now. We have a collection of guys who don't win and who don't make it very fun to follow along. There are a lot of plain personalities on the team since we got rid of Subban and others. It's one thing if you win and dominate, you can justify the approach... but right now, the Habs are rude to their fans and they're oppressive towards certain players, and they're not that good. So until that changes, I agree, not really a team that's easy to get behind.

It`s only once the Maple Laffs Organization started listening and committing to their fans; to their concerns and suggestions in fostering the right changes that the team finally took a turn for the better. The Habs Organization would be wise to take a page from theirs in that regard with their own fan-base.

However never gonna happen with Mr. Do Nothing Molson and Mr. Arrogance Bergevin.

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1 hour ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

It`s only once the Maple Laffs Organization started listening and committing to their fans; to their concerns and suggestions in fostering the right changes that the team finally took a turn for the better. The Habs Organization would be wise to take a page from theirs in that regard with their own fan-base.

However never gonna happen with Mr. Do Nothing Molson and Mr. Arrogance Bergevin.

Molson's in a tough spot, because he's not the guy making hockey personnel decisions and it looks equally bad if he's meddling in hockey affairs, so I get that it's not easy for him. On the other hand, he's got to look at Marc Bergevin's body of work... Bergevin stepped into a situation where there was nowhere to go but up. It was a great situation to walk into because the team he took over had done badly but it was also one that had really failed to meet expectations and had injury woes and a lame-duck coach the year before. So there was a lot of potential for immediate improvement. He inherited a 3rd overall pick. He had the best young goalie in the game. He had a potential superstar in Subban. He really had a lot of the pieces to build a Cup contender around.

Fast forward 5 years later and that promise is almost gone. We have very little in the way of sure things in the minors, and the AHL development system has been an utter disaster. Most of our trades have made our team slower, older, or just plain worse and there continues to be the mantra that grit and character win out. This team certainly appears worse off now than when MB took over: Subban and Eller are gone, Price and Pacioretty's window is closing and their contracts are expiring, Galchenyuk and Beaulieu look to be on the outs, Tinordi and Pateryn flamed out, Kristo and Thomas and Sekac and Andrighetto were cast away, Hudon looks like he'll never get a chance... the young pieces that MB was supposed to build around just haven't materialized. Instead, we've seen him continue to add depth veterans without addressing the need for scoring or the need for a top-pairing LH defenceman. We haven't seen him address the need for not one but now two top-6 centers. All he's done in that regard is complain about how hard it is to make trades and how hard it is to draft quality players. I don't know what Bergevin thought his job was going to be like, but he really hasn't been overly successful at it. As an owner, you want to give your GM five years. That's how long it should take to revamp a roster and put your own stamp on it. Most of the players MB inherited are gone. The guys who are here are his type of guy now... Weber, Shaw, King, Ott, Mitchell, Danault, Martinsen, Flynn, Byron, Benn, Petry, Davidson, etc... these are the guys MB wanted to trade for and bring in.

This roster is still competitive, but it lacks flair. It lacks actual character, because character to MB is having guys who toe the party line. It lacks homegrown talent that we have drafted and developed from day 1 and who wear the CH on their sleeve. Gallagher is one guy, but he's been injured a lot. Galchenyuk is another but he's been marginalized, as has Beaulieu. But all in all, this team lacks direction. I look at this roster and I feel less optimistic about the team going forward than I did 5 years ago. I feel like MB went all-in on Weber and Shaw and his 4th liners this year, and he lost that bet. So if I'm Molson, I don't know where he thinks MB is driving this train. MB has an average team assembled, but he had the opportunity to be well ahead of where he is now and certainly, to not have sacrificed the future to get older this season and see nothing pan out.

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What if you work out a deal with Dallas for the 3rd ova pick that goes like this:

To DAL: Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, 2nd rounder, 2018

To MTL: Jason Spezza, Julius Honka, 1st 2017 (3rd OVA)

 

Gives you a look up front of:

Pacioretty, Spezza, Radulov

Byron, Plekanec, Gallagher

Lehkonen, Danault, Shaw

Carr, McCarron, Mitchell

Markov, Weber

Jerebek, Petry

Benn, Honka

Price

Montoya

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2 hours ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

What if you work out a deal with Dallas for the 3rd ova pick that goes like this:

To DAL: Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, 2nd rounder, 2018

To MTL: Jason Spezza, Julius Honka, 1st 2017 (3rd OVA)

 

Gives you a look up front of:

Pacioretty, Spezza, Radulov

Byron, Plekanec, Gallagher

Lehkonen, Danault, Shaw

Carr, McCarron, Mitchell

Markov, Weber

Jerebek, Petry

Benn, Honka

Price

Montoya

A former 3rd over all and a 17th ova is a bit much for 3 OVA in a weak draft year. Take Galchenyuk off and trade our 1st, beaulieu and that 2nd and leave Spezza out. Then draft GABRIEL VILARDI at 3rd. He's a big 6'3 203 lb center. He has a good 2 way game with offensive flair.  Find out some way to unload Plekanec move Danault to 2nd center Galchenyuk to 3rd center. 

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Neither of these last 2 proposals are eve close to enough. Gonna take more than that to pry a top 6 C, the 3rd overall and a good prospect. And a late first, a big question mark in Beaulieu and a 2nd for the 3rd overall and a solid prospect in Honka. No chance.

 

I really think that our best option is to trade any prospect not name Sergachev, our first and probably another piece or 2 for Duchene. Give Duchene first line duties and commit to a full season of Galchenyuk at center. Im not really huge on Duchene, but he is much better than what we have now. Duchene-Galchenyuk-Danault is MILES better that what we iced at the start of the playoffs in Danault-Pleks-Shaw.

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1 hour ago, NewfoundlandHab said:

Neither of these last 2 proposals are eve close to enough. Gonna take more than that to pry a top 6 C, the 3rd overall and a good prospect. And a late first, a big question mark in Beaulieu and a 2nd for the 3rd overall and a solid prospect in Honka. No chance.

 

I really think that our best option is to trade any prospect not name Sergachev, our first and probably another piece or 2 for Duchene. Give Duchene first line duties and commit to a full season of Galchenyuk at center. Im not really huge on Duchene, but he is much better than what we have now. Duchene-Galchenyuk-Danault is MILES better that what we iced at the start of the playoffs in Danault-Pleks-Shaw.

Maybe or maybe not. I read that Dallas wants an impact defensemen for the 3rd OVA. http://www.gohabsgo.com/2017/05/24/elliotte-friedman-reveals-what-it-would-take-to-ge/  Anyone should be available not named Sergachev. Maybe Juulsen and Davison. 

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4 hours ago, manquant said:

Maybe or maybe not. I read that Dallas wants an impact defensemen for the 3rd OVA. http://www.gohabsgo.com/2017/05/24/elliotte-friedman-reveals-what-it-would-take-to-ge/  Anyone should be available not named Sergachev. Maybe Juulsen and Davison. 

Neither of those guys are impact defensemen. For them to trade the 3 OA it's going to take a guy who is at least a proven top 4. Juulsen has the potential to become one but that may take years if it ever happens.

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9 hours ago, habs1952 said:

Should Bergevin take a shot at hiring Larry Robinson as an assistant coach?

Seeing as he wouldn't return Robinson's calls the last time Larry was available, I'm guessing not. Doubt Robinson would have much interest in doing business with a guy who couldn't give him a little common courtesy in the past.

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Why hire Larry, the Habs have JJ

Pretty should MT wanted to change PK

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/stu-cowan-former-canadien-larry-robinson-looking-for-a-new-job-in-nhl

Robinson also wrote in the book that the key to coaching is “to avoid trying to change somebody.”

“Instead you want to help them improve the way they already do certain things to make them more effective. For me, that was the biggest transition from being Larry Robinson the player to Larry Robinson the coach. You can’t say, ‘I would have done it this way.’ That’s not the only way it works — you’re not the one doing it

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On 5/25/2017 at 6:36 PM, NewfoundlandHab said:

Neither of those guys are impact defensemen. For them to trade the 3 OA it's going to take a guy who is at least a proven top 4. Juulsen has the potential to become one but that may take years if it ever happens.

If it's an impact defenseman they're after, then why not send them Petry or Weber?  Get an early start on that rebuild that's coming 2 years down the road too late.

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