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Subban Traded For Weber


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I've said all along that in the short term, I think we'll be ok. It's 3-4 years down the road, when PK's entering his 30's and Weber is in his mid 30's, that we're going to see the negative aspect of the trade.

My guess is the Habs are banking on the kid they drafted in the 1st round being ready , sooner, rather than later. And if he is as good as they say he is , we'll forget about PK

I'd be more than happy to give Bergevin and Therrien their due if they can bring home a winner. I just don't have the expectation that will happen.

MT couldn't win the Cup with Crosby on his roster . Nuff said

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I don't get how this trade is OK in the short team. The Habs have been demolished in the possession game since Therrien came in excluding 2 months last season and the lockout shortened year, and have decided to trade the 2nd best possession driving defenseman in the world for a guy who emphatically DOES NOT move the puck uo the ice, while doubling down on the outsated tactics that lead to a generally good roster getting cratered in the possession game.

So you're convinced he's washed up based on 1 bad playoff?

Weber scored 20 goals last season, pretty good for a player considered to be a defensive specialist with no offense in his game. Oh yeah, and 14 of those goals came on the PP.

How many blueliners scored 20 or more goals last season?

Nobody said he's bad on the power play or bad at offense. He's elite offensively and on the PP but is now very weak in the transition game and moving the puck forward.

Nobody thinks he's washed up. He's clearly still a very good player. For the past 3 or 4 seasons he has absoultely not been close to Subban. It's not like this is even a numbers vs. intangibles thing, Weber was dominant possession wise just a few years ago but has gone into decline since then. The same numbers that say Subban is elite also said Weber was elite when he was 26, and say he's not elite at age 31.

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Yeah. Weber has tangibly changed from the days he was rightfully called underrated. But people missed the point about peak Shea Weber, and they're continuing to miss it now: he was elite despite the overemphasized physicality, not because of it. That has always been his least effective tool, but due to aging it's now his go-to. I heard a phrase not long ago which I think puts it perfectly: killing rats is preferable to not, but you don't want to be in the position of having to do it. If you're blocking lots of shots and throwing lots of hits, you're being run around.

The hallmarks of Weber's style are things defencemen do when they're passengers to the flow of the game. His individualistic contribution of 12-15 power play goals will be easily negated by the incredible hit we're going to take 5-on-5.

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Can't wait for the season to start so we can see real world results one way or the other. i am pretty sure the combo of Webber and Muller will turn our PP around quite a bit and Webber for sure does not carry the puck as often as Subban did but there are other players who may make up some of that shortcoming. Having Petry back healthy will help and Beaulieu should be Webbers partner which will mean he will be doing most of the carrying which should work out fine. to me comparing the two players back to back is kind of unfair to both of them as they bring different skillsets it is more a question of how they fit in with the rest of the team to me.

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Can't wait for the season to start so we can see real world results one way or the other. i am pretty sure the combo of Webber and Muller will turn our PP around quite a bit and Webber for sure does not carry the puck as often as Subban did but there are other players who may make up some of that shortcoming. Having Petry back healthy will help and Beaulieu should be Webbers partner which will mean he will be doing most of the carrying which should work out fine. to me comparing the two players back to back is kind of unfair to both of them as they bring different skillsets it is more a question of how they fit in with the rest of the team to me.

^ this !

me too ! can't wait for PUCK DROP ! :D

square or circle ?

apple or orange ?

its impossible to compare because they are the same yet different . I'll wait & see who does what & how the season starts before I declare the end of the world LOL .

Just for fun I checked the last 3 season numbers....

PK

15/16 ....176 shots = 6 goals (51 points)

14/15 ....170 shots = 15 goals (60 points)

13/14 ....204 shots = 10 goals (53 points)

Weber

15/16 ... 189 shots = 20 goals (51 points )

14/15 ... 237 shots = 15 goals ( 45 points)

13/14 ... 195 shots = 23 goals ( 56 points)

so over the last 3 seasons...

looks pretty close on points

Weber takes more shots

Weber gets more goals

and all while weber is an "old , washed up , pylon".... LOL :blink::D

Usain Bolt (at 29 .... ALMOST 30 ! omg !) .... just proved he is still faster than "ALL" the young guys in their "prime" B) ..... age is just a number !

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so over the last 3 seasons...

looks pretty close on points

Weber takes more shots

Weber gets more goals

and all while weber is an "old , washed up , pylon".... LOL :blink::D

I put a little less stock in some of the analytics other guys do (there are so many other factors than can influence it) but i think the main concern isnt that Weber is no good or washed up, its that he is (or at least appears to be) not as good as Subban. Weber is still an elite player. He's still going to be one of the top players on this team. We would be overjoyed to add him if the return the other way included anyone not named Price, Subban or Gachenyuk etc. The problem is who we gave up, not who we got.

That said, who knows, maybe MT and MB are geniuses and Weber will have a renaissance here. Maybe the corsi and other advanced stats were thrown off by the Pred's team depth and he will look great with us. Maybe we'll match him with a great partner and he will be super effective.

The problem is that all these maybes are possible (and in some cases probable) but we had 'sure thing' in PK that we gave up for a maybe. That seems foolhardy to me.

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Someone will have to point to me all the people calling Shea Weber a washed up old pylon because it seems to me it's just a made up strawman argument. It's possible for both teams in a trade to get good players and have the trade still be bad for one team. It's possible for one player to be significantly better than another without it meaning the other player is garbage.

I don't know why the suggestion that a professional athlete will see a decline in performance in their 30s compared to their mid 20s is so controversial. Pointing out age related decline does not mean the player is garbage, does not mean the player is washed up, does not mean the player is useless, and does not mean the player is bad in a vacuum.

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Someone will have to point to me all the people calling Shea Weber a washed up old pylon because it seems to me it's just a made up strawman argument. It's possible for both teams in a trade to get good players and have the trade still be bad for one team. It's possible for one player to be significantly better than another without it meaning the other player is garbage.

I don't know why the suggestion that a professional athlete will see a decline in performance in their 30s compared to their mid 20s is so controversial. Pointing out age related decline does not mean the player is garbage, does not mean the player is washed up, does not mean the player is useless, and does not mean the player is bad in a vacuum.

Agreed with this. I think this is the crux of it.

To me, Subban is the 2nd best D man in the NHL right now. Weber is probably in the 10-12 range. I'd have guys like Karlsson, Subban, Keith, Doughty, Letang, and Hedman clearly ahead of him. You can make arguments for Weber versus Suter, Josi, and others, but it's clear to me that Subban is in a class ahead of Weber right now. If you compare 26 year-old Weber to 26-year old Subban, then you can make the argument for Weber, but we didn't acquire 26 year-old Weber. And we have a guy who is still signed for a long time, so that has to be factored in as well.

Weber is still without a doubt a #1 defenceman in this league. He'll still be good. He will help the PP, and he should still score goals. But he is not currently as good or as complete a player as Subban.

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Agreed with this. I think this is the crux of it.

To me, Subban is the 2nd best D man in the NHL right now. Weber is probably in the 10-12 range. I'd have guys like Karlsson, Subban, Keith, Doughty, Letang, and Hedman clearly ahead of him. You can make arguments for Weber versus Suter, Josi, and others, but it's clear to me that Subban is in a class ahead of Weber right now. If you compare 26 year-old Weber to 26-year old Subban, then you can make the argument for Weber, but we didn't acquire 26 year-old Weber. And we have a guy who is still signed for a long time, so that has to be factored in as well.

Weber is still without a doubt a #1 defenceman in this league. He'll still be good. He will help the PP, and he should still score goals. But he is not currently as good or as complete a player as Subban.

Fair argument. it pretty much comes down to which one fits the teams needs and plans. unless PK gets really hurt sometime in the future we lose the deal in the long run but in the short term it may work out very well and as some have argued we need to win now to keep us in Carey and others ideal window then this could be a great move. i agree if you look at it player for player Subban is better in almost every stat he just may not be the guy we need right now due to needs and cost. i feel pretty good about the young lad we just drafted i can't see him here this year but perhaps in a year or two. and Webber will still be here and fairly good to bring him along.

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I can't understand the argument that a team can somehow not need or want elite 5-on-5 game control. Subban provides it, Weber does not. Weber is good in the aggregate, but he is nowhere near elite 5-on-5 anymore. Not even close. Even granting that Weber trends to more power play individual point production, the team is significantly worse for this move. Not only is Subban the better player right now, he's been so, and will continue to be so. I've desperately been looking for a way to be logically optimistic about this, and I've so far failed. As flimsy and pathetic as the "character" and "leadership" arguments are, they're really all it has going for it.

As for the money, I'd humbly suggest that this team's problem is what they're paying David Desharnais, Alexei Emelin, and Andrew Shaw, and not what they were paying the second best defenceman in the NHL.

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Haven't been on here for a while ( friend of gorges) IMo this trade is going to push Habs to the next level ,it's hard to argue that Shea isn't one of the best all round dman in NHL .pluss his leader ship is a 10 out of 10 where Pk is a2 out of 10 .i also know some of the problems Pk produces among his teammates. Pk is a great player but I think Shea has more upside.Shea was choked a little about trade but once he puts on jersey he gives 100% every shift and will stand up for his mates Pk not so much it was more like teammates had to stand up for him. We shall see.

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I can't understand the argument that a team can somehow not need or want elite 5-on-5 game control. Subban provides it, Weber does not. Weber is good in the aggregate, but he is nowhere near elite 5-on-5 anymore. Not even close. Even granting that Weber trends to more power play individual point production, the team is significantly worse for this move. Not only is Subban the better player right now, he's been so, and will continue to be so. I've desperately been looking for a way to be logically optimistic about this, and I've so far failed. As flimsy and pathetic as the "character" and "leadership" arguments are, they're really all it has going for it.

As for the money, I'd humbly suggest that this team's problem is what they're paying David Desharnais, Alexei Emelin, and Andrew Shaw, and not what they were paying the second best defenceman in the NHL.

Haven't been on here for a while ( friend of gorges) IMo this trade is going to push Habs to the next level ,it's hard to argue that Shea isn't one of the best all round dman in NHL .pluss his leader ship is a 10 out of 10 where Pk is a2 out of 10 .i also know some of the problems Pk produces among his teammates. Pk is a great player but I think Shea has more upside.Shea was choked a little about trade but once he puts on jersey he gives 100% every shift and will stand up for his mates Pk not so much it was more like teammates had to stand up for him. We shall see.

I think it's interesting that these two posts are back-to-back. On the one hand, you have youth, speed, skill, and stats (both basic and advanced) to back up Subban being the better player. On the other hand, the argument for Weber is based on specialist play on the PP, as well as the believe that he adds character, toughness, and will somehow make the room a better place.

I don't doubt that Weber is well-respected by his teammates. But I still fail to see how his grit and leadership translates into team results. Again, players like Travis Moen, Brian Gionta, Hal Gill, and Scott Gomez were thought to be "great leaders" and "character guys" and "players who brought Cup-winning experience to the locker room." But in the end, that only got us so far. Shea Weber has won zip as an NHL player. He's never made it to a conference final, he's never won a Norris trophy, his advanced stats are average and were inferior to many of his teammates in Nashville.

If someone would like to make the statement that Shea Weber being here instead of PK Subban will allow Michel Therrien to be less on edge and sleep better at night, than sure, I might buy that. I can buy that Therrien didn't like Subban. I can buy that Weber will get along with his coach better than Subban did here. But Subban was gold on the ice DESPITE the coach hammering him repeatedly. Maybe this trade helps Therrien off the ice. But I fail to see any proof that this will help us win a Cup. Subban's skill and projections of his abilities over the rest of his contract are of greater value than Weber's grit IMO. If grit is the best argument for Weber, that's a hard pill to swallow. Laud Weber for his PP prowess, by all means, but is the potential benefit to the PP going to offset the drop-off at even strength and on defence? I think we were far better off with Subban, and the numbers support that.

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I think it's interesting that these two posts are back-to-back. On the one hand, you have youth, speed, skill, and stats (both basic and advanced) to back up Subban being the better player. On the other hand, the argument for Weber is based on specialist play on the PP, as well as the believe that he adds character, toughness, and will somehow make the room a better place.

I don't doubt that Weber is well-respected by his teammates. But I still fail to see how his grit and leadership translates into team results. Again, players like Travis Moen, Brian Gionta, Hal Gill, and Scott Gomez were thought to be "great leaders" and "character guys" and "players who brought Cup-winning experience to the locker room." But in the end, that only got us so far. Shea Weber has won zip as an NHL player. He's never made it to a conference final, he's never won a Norris trophy, his advanced stats are average and were inferior to many of his teammates in Nashville.

If someone would like to make the statement that Shea Weber being here instead of PK Subban will allow Michel Therrien to be less on edge and sleep better at night, than sure, I might buy that. I can buy that Therrien didn't like Subban. I can buy that Weber will get along with his coach better than Subban did here. But Subban was gold on the ice DESPITE the coach hammering him repeatedly. Maybe this trade helps Therrien off the ice. But I fail to see any proof that this will help us win a Cup. Subban's skill and projections of his abilities over the rest of his contract are of greater value than Weber's grit IMO. If grit is the best argument for Weber, that's a hard pill to swallow. Laud Weber for his PP prowess, by all means, but is the potential benefit to the PP going to offset the drop-off at even strength and on defence? I think we were far better off with Subban, and the numbers support that.

Well I think it makes a difference having your best dman being tough and standing up for his mates than having Moen or Gill lol. Pluss having a player that brings leadership and brings players together is definently recipe for winning whereas having a player that divides everyone. Don't forger what Shea has done for team canada ,the best dman they had
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The one thing I could not listen to from the king of turnovers was,"I know Carey has my back" after turning the puck over. PK should have had the discipline to fix it himself. I doubt Webber will be relying on Carey to fix his problems and is more likely to take responsibility for his bad plays. Despite the similar amount of points and ice-time when we look at the very unreliable stat of turnovers PK was a nightmare in comparison. I'm not sure his teammates or coaches thoughts it was something that should be ignored

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The one thing I could not listen to from the king of turnovers was,"I know Carey has my back" after turning the puck over. PK should have had the discipline to fix it himself. I doubt Webber will be relying on Carey to fix his problems and is more likely to take responsibility for his bad plays. Despite the similar amount of points and ice-time when we look at the very unreliable stat of turnovers PK was a nightmare in comparison. I'm not sure his teammates or coaches thoughts it was something that should be ignored

absolutely right. our possession numbers are fantastic and our forward group is one of the deepest, most creative and dangerous units in the league. the last thing we needed on this team was yet another guy attempting to create offence.

we can now rest easy that the puck will be safely off the glass 100% of the time, and our offensive juggernaut can take over from there

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absolutely right. our possession numbers are fantastic and our forward group is one of the deepest, most creative and dangerous units in the league. the last thing we needed on this team was yet another guy attempting to create offence.

we can now rest easy that the puck will be safely off the glass 100% of the time, and our offensive juggernaut can take over from there

:lol::lol: ,,,, you're a funny guy, jeff. :lol:

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The one thing I could not listen to from the king of turnovers was,"I know Carey has my back" after turning the puck over. PK should have had the discipline to fix it himself. I doubt Webber will be relying on Carey to fix his problems and is more likely to take responsibility for his bad plays. Despite the similar amount of points and ice-time when we look at the very unreliable stat of turnovers PK was a nightmare in comparison. I'm not sure his teammates or coaches thoughts it was something that should be ignored

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Well I think it makes a difference having your best dman being tough and standing up for his mates than having Moen or Gill lol. Pluss having a player that brings leadership and brings players together is definently recipe for winning whereas having a player that divides everyone. Don't forger what Shea has done for team canada ,the best dman they had

PK stood up for his teammates plenty of times. I don't know where people get the narrative that he didn't. He did it in the press, he did it on the ice. He didn't fight a lot, but he hit plenty, and frankly, you don't want your #1 D man fighting. It doesn't serve us well at all to have Weber serving majors regularly. That's the role for a lower-tier player to step up for and fight if it's really needed, and again, I'll personally take the guy who drives play and wins games over the guy who everyone loves just because he fights for his teammates. Prust was a great teammate who stepped up for his teammates frequently, but does that mean he's a more valuable player than Subban, Pacioretty, or Galchenyuk? It's ridiculous to suggest it. Yes, you want guys who play well together and have their teammates' backs, but I just don't get the argument that character is a substitute for skill. It's not. Yes, you want character on top of skill, but Subban has both anyways, and he's a superior player to Weber where it counts on the ice.

The one thing I could not listen to from the king of turnovers was,"I know Carey has my back" after turning the puck over. PK should have had the discipline to fix it himself. I doubt Webber will be relying on Carey to fix his problems and is more likely to take responsibility for his bad plays. Despite the similar amount of points and ice-time when we look at the very unreliable stat of turnovers PK was a nightmare in comparison. I'm not sure his teammates or coaches thoughts it was something that should be ignored

I've addressed this before, so I'll refrain from going back into the numbers, but it was either Andrew Berkshire or EOTP that did an analysis of turnovers, and it actually showed that Weber was the worse player. Subban has more turnovers, but it's only because he has the puck way more than any other player in the league. If you correct those numbers for the number of touches the player gets (not to mention the system they played in), Subban is clearly the better defensive player. Here's the analogy... let's say you have a 50 year-old person who's been driving a car every day for 30 years. They've had 5 tickets or accidents in that span of time. Now say you have an 18 year-old who's been driving for 6 months and has had 3 accidents or tickets in that time. Who's the better driver? Who deserves to be accused of having the issue? If you look at the absolute numbers (5 vs. 3), you make it seem like the older driver is worse. But if you look at the rates, you get a much more accurate picture of what's going on. Subban gets ragged on for this, but it's honestly a lazy narrative to claim he's a turnover machine without trying to figure out why. Subban's turnovers stem from the fact he has the puck a lot and because he plays in a bad system. Let's see how Weber does playing for Therrien and bring this up again in a year's time.

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PK stood up for his teammates plenty of times. I don't know where people get the narrative that he didn't. He did it in the press, he did it on the ice. He didn't fight a lot, but he hit plenty, and frankly, you don't want your #1 D man fighting. It doesn't serve us well at all to have Weber serving majors regularly. That's the role for a lower-tier player to step up for and fight if it's really needed, and again, I'll personally take the guy who drives play and wins games over the guy who everyone loves just because he fights for his teammates. Prust was a great teammate who stepped up for his teammates frequently, but does that mean he's a more valuable player than Subban, Pacioretty, or Galchenyuk? It's ridiculous to suggest it. Yes, you want guys who play well together and have their teammates' backs, but I just don't get the argument that character is a substitute for skill. It's not. Yes, you want character on top of skill, but Subban has both anyways, and he's a superior player to Weber where it counts on the ice.

Your right PK stood up for his mates behind a microphone ( wich he seems very good at) but never on the ice .Theres so much about PK that his own team mates have to bite there lips so they don't say how they feel about him. We will see ,but next December let's see how both teams and players are doing....my money's on Shea and the Habs And did you really say that PK is better defensively than Shea. EDIT

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There seems to be a lot of underhanded remarks going on between members when someone has a point of view that does not fit with another member it is called ridiculous or sarcastic posts seemingly agreeing with the previous poster..... this is not a nice post to be in right now as some can't seem to see a way to understand others points of view. i know i have been guilty of it myself somtimes. why don't we all just wait till the season starts and see how things go? in the end the deal is done it has been for a while we have what we have and he is pretty good. those that slam him and say he is not even a top ten dman seem to know more than most of the folks who are actually in the NHL?

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