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Subban Traded For Weber


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Guest Regis2

I wouldn't worry what Mario Tremblay says , he was a terrible coach

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/shea-weber-im-not-p-000000875.html

Weber has had a successful hockey career in his own right. In each of his full seasons he has scored in between 15-23 goals and in between 40 and 56 points. Last year he averaged 25:23 of average ice-time per-game and notched 51 points – the third-highest total of his career.

But from an advanced stats perspective he’s below Subban. Last season he held a minus-3.67 5-on-5 score and venue adjusted CF%. The year before he was minus-5.82.

Some of that has to do with how the Predators have historically used him as a match-up defender – but he’s not seen as a speed player in the way today’s game has evolved.

Canadiens general manager Marc Bergevin was asked why he believes his Canadiens are a better team with Weber than Subban, who had a minus-0.11 5-on-5 score and venue adjusted CF% Rel last year.

“I will not go into detail why we think we’re a better team, but we feel we are a better team and I will leave this discussion internally,” Bergevin said

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Subban was traded because he's BLACK! Period. End of story.

You know what, by all rights this should be a crazy statement, but I think that you're absolutely right.

It maybe wasn't the colour of his skin per se, but more his attitude. He always acted more like a stereotypical basketball star than a hockey star. He was exuberant, he was emotional, he was cocky - and he was good. And we as fans loved him for all of it. But our coach (and presumably our manager) didn't. It's well known the way he talked about PK on l'Antichambre, about how he had to improve not as a hockey player but as a person. It didn't matter that he was the best skater on his team, he needed to be improved because he didn't play the white right way (credit: Darren Pang). And now, despite keeping his mouth shut and toeing the party line for years, he's been traded anyway and the coach is still here.

I think it's worth pointing out, too, just how classy PK's been throughout his entire time here. In any interview you read he's always cocky, sure, and he never shied away from saying that his goal was to be the best defenseman in the NHL. But for all the bad press and for all the terrible coaching decisions and for all the team Canada snubs and for all the bush-league treatment by management he never once said anything negative about any of it, up to and including the day he was traded. This is honestly almost a super-human amount of patience and respect, especially for a guy that you know would be confident enough to speak up if that's what he had wanted to do. I honestly don't see very many of the traditional stoic hockey stars being as classy as PK always has been if they had faced the same level of disrespect from virtually every corner.

On the bright side, at least he did seem to have an appreciation of how much the fans really loved him.

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What an awful and pointless trade.

Weber is *at best* a lateral move in the present and a downgrade in the future: he's nearly 4 years older and his style of play is likely to show rust more quickly than Subban. We save a million in cap space, but that's about the only positive (his contract isn't as problematic as some suggest

Even in the present: what was our team's problem last year? Offense. While Weber has a few more goals, overall Subban is clearly the better offensive player . He adds physicality, but our defense isn't exactly tiny or non-physical.

Even if we assume Weber and Subban are equally good players today, how do we not get compensation for Subban being almost 4 years younger? 1 million saved in cap space isn't enough to make up for this gap.

So not only did we trade our best player not named Price - which would have been hard to stomach in the best case - but we did so without addressing a need and while getting significantly older. What a downright awful trade. Weber is a great dman, but this trade makes no sense.

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Articles from Scott Cullen of TSN and from yahoosports both go through the actual statistics and advanced data for both Weber and Subban and both come to the same conclusion: that Subban is far and away the better player and Marc Bergevin got hosed big time. All the date supports this. MB tried to say that the trade was purely a hockey trade and had nothing to do with Subban's personality or a clash with the coach. We all know Bergevin'g lying (just look at how uncomfortable he looked and how many times he looked down while trying to answer those questions). But even for a second, let's say Bergevin believed he was getting the better of the hockey deal. O what basis? On what grounds is he making that evaluation? Because all the numbers suggest Subban is superior. So how did MB reach that decision, because he has no data to back up what he did and it really it makes him look inadequate as a GM for him to declare that he got the better hockey player.

I honest to God do not doubt that Bergevin thinks Weber is a better DMan, as misguided as that is. He plays a style more conducive to the old school scout's eyes, it's the same reason he's an anchor for Hockey Canada and Subban is either a depth player or off the team all together. A lot of guys with input on that team are highly regarded management types, it's not as if he'd be on an island with that thought. The disappointing thing is that we're a backward thinking organization and not a forward one.

Never mind the fact that Subban is better right now - and he is, he's also a guy who's proven he can produce in this lineup, with this team and that's FAR from a certainty as we've seen with plenty of new additions. Granted, Weber is a good player and I expected 3-4 really good years from him (not near what we have and would have gotten from Subban) but you never truly know. There's very little upside to this deal and a whole lot of downside. Question is if it'll be simply really bad or mega awful.

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Canadiens general manager Marc Bergevin was asked why he believes his Canadiens are a better team with Weber than Subban, who had a minus-0.11 5-on-5 score and venue adjusted CF% Rel last year.

“I will not go into detail why we think we’re a better team, but we feel we are a better team and I will leave this discussion internally,” Bergevin said

This was probably the only thing he could say without revealing the truth behind the decision IMO. More secrets... more lies... more questions.

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Canadiens general manager Marc Bergevin was asked why he believes his Canadiens are a better team with Weber than Subban, who had a minus-0.11 5-on-5 score and venue adjusted CF% Rel last year.

“I will not go into detail why we think we’re a better team, but we feel we are a better team and I will leave this discussion internally,” Bergevin said

This was probably the only thing he could say without revealing the truth behind the decision IMO. More secrets... more lies... more questions.

He has no choice but to leave the discussion internally. If he steps outside he'll freeze to death.

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Holy smokes!

PK is a heck of a player, but let's slow it down a little here. It was pretty obvious he was going to be traded. I truly expected it would be with Edmonton on draft day. I figured for something like the Nuge/Nurse/4th overall. (Considering Edmontons moves today, I'm not sure why it didn't) But when it didn't happen then, one still couldn't help but feel the trade coming. Clearly something was amiss.

Would I have liked to see us get a little something extra in the deal? Absolutely. At least a 2nd round pick, or prospect. (Possibly a Sissons or a Wattson). But is this trade the worst trade ever? Not even close. Keep in mind, the oilers just traded Taylor Hall for a bag of pucks. (Now in all fairness, Larson might be worth a little more that a bag of pucks, but in contrast... it's a pretty fair comparison).

I'll miss PK, he's always been a lot of fun to watch. But Webber is a beast in his own right. I for one am looking forward in seeing how it all pans out. They are definitely 2 very different players. PK being the more exciting player, but Webber seems to find the back of the net on a far more consistent basis.

Contractually, with Webbers being signed prior to the last lockout, the only years that truly mater are the first six. The remaining four are pretty much formalities, that will be worked out one way or another when the time comes. So it's basically 6 @ $7.85 for 6 @ $9. So money is saved off of the cap, and clearly Webber doesn't have any sort of no movement clauses, so there's that to consider as well.

In the end, arguments could be made in either direction. Time will be the one who tells. But for now it looks like our defence has gotten a little bit older, cheaper, bigger, meaner and less exciting. Sort of a mixed bag of pro's and con's. Let's calm down and not get carried away with all of this "let's start a we hate Webber club!" He's an awesome defensemen, and he's a Hab now, so let's give the beast the warm welcome he deserves.

P.S. Enough with the "because he's black" stuff. That's just ridiculous...

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You know what, by all rights this should be a crazy statement, but I think that you're absolutely right.

It maybe wasn't the colour of his skin per se, but more his attitude. He always acted more like a stereotypical basketball star than a hockey star. He was exuberant, he was emotional, he was cocky - and he was good. And we as fans loved him for all of it. But our coach (and presumably our manager) didn't. It's well known the way he talked about PK on l'Antichambre, about how he had to improve not as a hockey player but as a person. It didn't matter that he was the best skater on his team, he needed to be improved because he didn't play the white right way (credit: Darren Pang). And now, despite keeping his mouth shut and toeing the party line for years, he's been traded anyway and the coach is still here.

I think it's worth pointing out, too, just how classy PK's been throughout his entire time here. In any interview you read he's always cocky, sure, and he never shied away from saying that his goal was to be the best defenseman in the NHL. But for all the bad press and for all the terrible coaching decisions and for all the team Canada snubs and for all the bush-league treatment by management he never once said anything negative about any of it, up to and including the day he was traded. This is honestly almost a super-human amount of patience and respect, especially for a guy that you know would be confident enough to speak up if that's what he had wanted to do. I honestly don't see very many of the traditional stoic hockey stars being as classy as PK always has been if they had faced the same level of disrespect from virtually every corner.

On the bright side, at least he did seem to have an appreciation of how much the fans really loved him.

It's an interesting distinction. I wonder how Therrien and Bergevin would have treated a cocky white player like Patrick Roy?

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Holy smokes!

PK is a heck of a player, but let's slow it down a little here. It was pretty obvious he was going to be traded.

...

Contractually, with Webbers being signed prior to the last lockout, the only years that truly mater are the first six. The remaining four are pretty much formalities, that will be worked out one way or another when the time comes. So it's basically 6 @ $7.85 for 6 @ $9. So money is saved off of the cap, and clearly Webber doesn't have any sort of no movement clauses, so there's that to consider as well.

In the end, arguments could be made in either direction. Time will be the one who tells. But for now it looks like our defence has gotten a little bit older, cheaper, bigger, meaner and less exciting. Sort of a mixed bag of pro's and con's. Let's calm down and not get carried away with all of this "let's start a we hate Webber club!" He's an awesome defensemen, and he's a Hab now, so let's give the beast the warm welcome he deserves.

I don't think it was all that obvious, Bergevin basically denied it and Vancouver suggested we were asking for a price no one would pay.

Weber being signed prior to the last lockout doesn't matter, although it's highly unlikely we'll face any cap recapture penalty unless he retires really young (since most of the cap benefit occurred in Nashville, they'll be the ones to pay). If he sticks around when he's older, his contract is probably tradeable to a 'floor' team. So as bad this trade is, the contract isn't really part of it.

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I don't think it was all that obvious, Bergevin basically denied it and Vancouver suggested we were asking for a price no one would pay.

Weber being signed prior to the last lockout doesn't matter, although it's highly unlikely we'll face any cap recapture penalty unless he retires really young (since most of the cap benefit occurred in Nashville, they'll be the ones to pay). If he sticks around when he's older, his contract is probably tradeable to a 'floor' team. So as bad this trade is, the contract isn't really part of it.

Yes, that's basica what I meant. Just that the style of his contract was so heavily front loaded, in the way that contracts were before that last lockout. But I just wanted to note it since that seems to be one of the major complaints is how bad the contract is. It says 10 years on paper, but kind of, sort of really isn't.

And I don't know, yes Bergevin denied it. But in PK's own words, where there's smoke, there's usually some fire. $9 mil is a big hit, and with no movement... If they wanted out, now was the time. And after last year, I think something had to give. So I just meant in that sense, at least it wasn't a shocker. Still would have like to seen a little more in return...

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This is utterly heartbreaking. I hate hate hate this trade with every ounce in me that cares about this team. We get a substantially worse defender who may not even be appreciably better than Petry at this point besides on the power play, and gave up the second best defenseman in the world to get him. If that's not enough, he's 31 and signed for ANOTHER DECADE. This is a monumentally stupid move and there is absolutely no redeeming value to it. Weber is a worse player today and it's not even close, and the gap will just get wider and wider as the years go on.

Good god why did I ever get this emotionally invested in a corporate brand. Why did I ever get this invested in an organization run by Marky Mark and the Foxhole bunch. Why did I still continue to hold out hope that they'd eventually come around to Subban when they threw him under the bus time and timr and time again. Why did I believe they had a freaking clue what was going on when they kept Therrien around. Why.

Stupid stupid stupid. They sold us Shea Weber as if he's the second coming of Chris Pronger when we really just got a glorified Sheldon Souray. Markov and Weber are going to get murdered at even strength. What a disaster.

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Yes, that's basica what I meant. Just that the style of his contract was so heavily front loaded, in the way that contracts were before that last lockout. But I just wanted to note it since that seems to be one of the major complaints is how bad the contract is. It says 10 years on paper, but kind of, sort of really isn't.

And I don't know, yes Bergevin denied it. But in PK's own words, where there's smoke, there's usually some fire. $9 mil is a big hit, and with no movement... If they wanted out, now was the time. And after last year, I think something had to give. So I just meant in that sense, at least it wasn't a shocker. Still would have like to seen a little more in return...

True, there was smoke. It's just that generally in the NHL when there's smoke there's still not trades. To See Hall and Subban traded the same day was downright shocking.

I agree the contract issue is being overblown. Cap recapture would only hurt us if Weber retires in the next few years, and even then barely (the numbers on http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/6/29/12061696/Salary-Cap-Recapture-Montreal-Canadiens-PK-Subban-Shea-Weber-Nashville-Predators--Flyers-Offer-Sheetlook correct -> if anything Nashville could be burned by the cap recapture implications of this trade since they don't get any 'benefit' in the years he's making 6 million or less and have accrued significant 'debt'). There is a risk that if Weber decides to stick around in his late 30s even if he's ineffective that we're stuck with a bad cap hit, but I suspect we could trade the contract to help a team get to the cap-floor (may have to throw in a pick or something).

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I can not believe nor accept this. This is one fiasco the Canadiens Fans should not stand for and protest and boycott this completely ridiculous and unacceptable [edit] trade. All to please Michel Therrien? Are you kidding me. Not to mention Shea Webber, what in gods name do we need another PK Subban, ours was fine and a whole lot younger, not to mention are more fun person all round.

If you take 175$ as the average ticket price and multiply that by 21,000 then by 42 home games, the fans contribute around 154,350,000$ dollars per year just in ticket sales, not counting concessions at 10$ for a small beer. I can not and will not look at Therriens face anymore and even if they do win the cup, which they most certainly won't, I will still refuse to watch his smug face. A coach who had enough talent at his disposition to make it easily to the playoffs, and blames a player he can't get along with. Your a coach, THATS YOUR JOB [edit] !

I am so disgusted that I will stop here before I start throwing away everything and anything that has a candiens logo on it. Bergevin, you are a gutless [edit] little person that acts more like a politician then a General Manager. The whole lot of you imbeciles should get fired, Molson included!

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True, there was smoke. It's just that generally in the NHL when there's smoke there's still not trades. To See Hall and Subban traded the same day was downright shocking.

I agree the contract issue is being overblown. Cap recapture would only hurt us if Weber retires in the next few years, and even then barely (the numbers on http://www.stanleycupofchowder.com/2016/6/29/12061696/Salary-Cap-Recapture-Montreal-Canadiens-PK-Subban-Shea-Weber-Nashville-Predators--Flyers-Offer-Sheetlook correct -> if anything Nashville could be burned by the cap recapture implications of this trade since they don't get any 'benefit' in the years he's making 6 million or less and have accrued significant 'debt'). There is a risk that if Weber decides to stick around in his late 30s even if he's ineffective that we're stuck with a bad cap hit, but I suspect we could trade the contract to help a team get to the cap-floor (may have to throw in a pick or something).

Ahha yes, definitely a wild day in the world of hockey!

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Wow, my mind is blown! Despite all the speculation, I honestly didn't believe this would happen. I did jokingly post some time ago that maybe management was having second thoughts about the $9 million cap hit.

People have egging Bergevin on to make a bold trade for once and he really went for it in the wrong way.

This management has really gone bonkers! Except Carey Price, I don't think any player is untouchable now. Wont be surprised if Galchenyuk, Gallagher or Pacioretty can be traded at any point in time.

The Montreal gong show is truly underway, all with Geoff Molson's blessings.

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This.

Look, lets play devil's advocate. There are rumblings that Subban was disliked in the room. I dont buy it but lets just say it was the case. So MB decides he needs to move Subban. Ok.

That still doesnt explain the return.

We got a guy who is a great player - there is no denying that - but inferior to Subban in basically every. single. way. Worse still, his contract is BAD. AND he's older. Oh AND he's got way more mileage on his bones AND he plays a physical game. This return makes ZERO sense.

I mean you would think that at very least we could have gotten Weber + a 1st or Weber + Kamenev or Trenin. Or, we dont trade with Nashville at all. We go to the oilers (who clearly would have overpaid) and taken Hall, the 4th overall & maybe Nurse?

If there are extraneous circumstances we just do not know about (extremely unlikely, but lets say there are) and Bergevin felt he absolutely positively had to make a deal, there HAD to have been a one out there.

That's what really irks me as well, and it goes hand in hand with MB's obvious ineptitude to judge talent. The writing was on the wall, pretty much every hockey-related media outlet reported Subban being (more or less) available, and with the hockey world being as tight-knit as it is, there just had to be something to the rumors.

Ultimately, the question of why MB traded Subban doesn't really matter to me though. What I'd like to know is: That's the best you could do, Mark? That's truly the best return for a young, proven number 1 Dman capable of playing 30 minutes per night in all situations? Really? League-wide, there was not a single deal available that would have made more sense than acquiring an ageing Shea Weber on a brutal contract?

I find that extremely hard to believe.

Declining numbers or not, I have no doubt that Shea Weber still is an excellent Dman. He'll certainly give us 3-5 good years, so that's that. Let's think about the long-term implications though, what happens when he's really starting to decline? Either he'll play out his contract (unlikely given his style), he'll retire at some point (more likely) or we'll try to swing a trade without getting anything noteworthy in return due to his massive Cap it. Either way, none of these options are ideal, because both Weber and Subban will be gone without us having anything to show for it in the long run. So basically we traded a young No1 Dman for the remaining years of Shea Weber's career.

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Well our Stanley cup window is now capped at two. Why two? Because I dont think that Carey Price will resign with us if he really wants to win a cup. If I was him I would look how the next season pans out and if Carey is still the reason we are even in the run for a playoff spot then I would look for another team.

It would be such a shame if Max "I dont turn up for playoffs" Pacioretty is really part of the reason this deal was made. It would be even more disturbing if Plekanec would be involved as well. That would really change the way I think about them and I couldn't cheer for them anymore.

I wish Subban all the best and I hope he puts up a season for the ages.

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http://www.tsn.ca/radio/montreal-690/miller-p-k-receives-attention-not-commensurate-with-his-ability-1.518123

TSN's Gord Miller thinks we won the trade and that PK's overrated, especially within the boundaries of the City of Montreal. He sees him as an A- defenceman that doesn't belong in the Top 10, more like in the Top 15, with the following Dmen being superior:

Karlsson

Doughty

Burns

Josi

Giordano

Weber

Pietrangelo

Letang

Muzzin

Vlasic

Ekmann-Larsson

Hjalmarsson

Hedman

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Guest archey

His hits versus the power play with Muller back and him being front loaded with psychology over a 10,000,000 gift to the hospital and the tendency to "hot-shot" be it true to the team spirit or himself and the contract.

We probably came up somewhat short, but I am not surprised with it

Just as an analogy my best friend loves rap, but then she grew up in a two room apartment with 4 people and was a 2nd grade teacher and her daughter (playing the role of our future) is the best I've ever seen.

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This trade would be like if the Lightning now turned around and dealt Steven Stamkos and got back Marian Hossa or Patrick Marleau. Sure, the latter guys are decent hockey players but they're not what they used to be, whereas Stamkos is still in his prime. The people who can appreciate that but don't see the Subban trade as a travesty are being blinded by the negative image the French media and Habs management have cast over Subban.

Here's an article from the Toronto Star about the Hall and Subban trades:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2016/06/29/oilers-trade-taylor-hall-to-devils-for-adam-larsson.html

The two worst parts are Therrien telling his friends that he didn't think he could ever win a Cup with Subban (ironic because I don't think a team can ever win a Cup with Therrien as its coach) and that the Habs didn't like Subban having fun. Habs management and coaches got exactly what they deserve in losing Subban. The problem is that as fans, we're victims in the stupidity of the inter-personal battle between the NHL's brightest star and a bunch of antiquated dinosaurs who are running this team into the ground.

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The two worst parts are Therrien telling his friends that he didn't think he could ever win a Cup with Subban (ironic because I don't think a team can ever win a Cup with Therrien as its coach) and that the Habs didn't like Subban having fun. Habs management and coaches got exactly what they deserve in losing Subban. The problem is that as fans, we're victims in the stupidity of the inter-personal battle between the NHL's brightest star and a bunch of antiquated dinosaurs who are running this team into the ground.

Exactly, how would he even know? He has never won it, not even in Pittsburgh with two generational players on his roster.

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Well our Stanley cup window is now capped at two. Why two? Because I dont think that Carey Price will resign with us if he really wants to win a cup. If I was him I would look how the next season pans out and if Carey is still the reason we are even in the run for a playoff spot then I would look for another team.

It would be such a shame if Max "I dont turn up for playoffs" Pacioretty is really part of the reason this deal was made. It would be even more disturbing if Plekanec would be involved as well. That would really change the way I think about them and I couldn't cheer for them anymore.

I wish Subban all the best and I hope he puts up a season for the ages.

Agreed. Why would Price want to stick around when our cup hopes have been hobbled with this, and other brilliant moves.

I wish I had a pair of the rose colored glasses Mr. MB, Mr. MT and Mr. Molson are wearing.

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