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#67 Max Pacioretty 2016-17


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20 hours ago, PuckPundit said:

More hustle but his shooting has really gone off rails. Sniper who?

SH% is pretty volatile. He's performed better than people give him credit for. He's our best possession forward, leads the team in shots and has bounced around on lines. He hasn't been his best, not near it but he hasn't been bad either. 

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38 minutes ago, roy_133 said:

SH% is pretty volatile. He's performed better than people give him credit for. He's our best possession forward, leads the team in shots and has bounced around on lines. He hasn't been his best, not near it but he hasn't been bad either. 

I have a few issues with Pacioretty, despite the high Corsi:

- He's taken a number of really bad penalties this year and last. O-zone penalties. Ones where he's had to hook or hold because he's not moving his feet. He's taken more penalties than he's drawn, and for a guy with good speed and his skill, that shouldn't be the case.

- He's made some really untimely giveaways, like the one last night that led to a goal. There have been quite a few instances where he's been weak on the puck and where it really just hasn't looked much like the play of a captain.

- While he leads the team in 5v5 Corsi, he's further down the list in scoring chance generation (7th/8th on team). A lot of his shots by the eye test seem to be coming from further out, and the scoring chance data suggests his possession isn't translating into as many high-quality opportunities as other players.

- His play on the PP has been lackluster. At 5v4, the team's shooting percentage is lower with Pacioretty on the ice than with any other Hab (with appreciable ice time on the PP) outside of Beaulieu. And on the PP, your shooting percentage probably matters a little bit. More importantly, the team's scoring production on the PP with Pacioretty on is also lower than for any other player except Beaulieu and Desharnais (and don't get me started on DD playing on the PP!). It's not secret the PP has struggled in recent years, and a lot of that has to do with Desharnais and Pacioretty being largely ineffective there but still getting most of the 1st line duty from Therrien.

- Goal-wise, his production is well under pace.  He's not even on track to pot 20 goals.

- Among forwards on the PK, only Mitchell and Danault have been on ice for a higher rater of goals against, so it's not like he's been stellar on the penalty kill either.

So yes, Pacioretty has been a strong possession player at 5v5, but he's not producing much despite being given decent amounts of ice time and opportunity on the PP, nor is he generating as many scoring chances as many of his teammates. Like most players on the team, his PDO is quite high, so there's an expectation his numbers could drop as well. And I think what overshadows all of this is the lack of on-ice leadership he's displayed (if we're going to discuss bad penalties, giveaways, etc.), which is always going to temper things, given how much of controversial choice for captain he was. Pacioretty has the capability of being a 35-40 goal scorer and right now he's playing below that level. Like most snipers, he's streaky, and he could pot 6 goals in a week and get back on track number-wise. But I expect more from him given that he's supposed to be the team's leader/captain and given that he's been heralded a great defensive player and top forward by many in the media. He's far from being the worst forward on the team, but the expectations are and should be high, and he's not living up to those yet.

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44 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I have a few issues with Pacioretty, despite the high Corsi:

- He's taken a number of really bad penalties this year and last. O-zone penalties. Ones where he's had to hook or hold because he's not moving his feet. He's taken more penalties than he's drawn, and for a guy with good speed and his skill, that shouldn't be the case.

- He's made some really untimely giveaways, like the one last night that led to a goal. There have been quite a few instances where he's been weak on the puck and where it really just hasn't looked much like the play of a captain.

- While he leads the team in 5v5 Corsi, he's further down the list in scoring chance generation (7th/8th on team). A lot of his shots by the eye test seem to be coming from further out, and the scoring chance data suggests his possession isn't translating into as many high-quality opportunities as other players.

- His play on the PP has been lackluster. At 5v4, the team's shooting percentage is lower with Pacioretty on the ice than with any other Hab (with appreciable ice time on the PP) outside of Beaulieu. And on the PP, your shooting percentage probably matters a little bit. More importantly, the team's scoring production on the PP with Pacioretty on is also lower than for any other player except Beaulieu and Desharnais (and don't get me started on DD playing on the PP!). It's not secret the PP has struggled in recent years, and a lot of that has to do with Desharnais and Pacioretty being largely ineffective there but still getting most of the 1st line duty from Therrien.

- Goal-wise, his production is well under pace.  He's not even on track to pot 20 goals.

- Among forwards on the PK, only Mitchell and Danault have been on ice for a higher rater of goals against, so it's not like he's been stellar on the penalty kill either.

So yes, Pacioretty has been a strong possession player at 5v5, but he's not producing much despite being given decent amounts of ice time and opportunity on the PP, nor is he generating as many scoring chances as many of his teammates. Like most players on the team, his PDO is quite high, so there's an expectation his numbers could drop as well. And I think what overshadows all of this is the lack of on-ice leadership he's displayed (if we're going to discuss bad penalties, giveaways, etc.), which is always going to temper things, given how much of controversial choice for captain he was. Pacioretty has the capability of being a 35-40 goal scorer and right now he's playing below that level. Like most snipers, he's streaky, and he could pot 6 goals in a week and get back on track number-wise. But I expect more from him given that he's supposed to be the team's leader/captain and given that he's been heralded a great defensive player and top forward by many in the media. He's far from being the worst forward on the team, but the expectations are and should be high, and he's not living up to those yet.


But this is what's funny, everyone is complaining about his defensive game and yet he's been driving possession, if anything from my eye test the scoring chances thing makes sense because he hasn't generated offensively the way he can/should but he's still been a solid 2-way presence and kept the puck in the OZone. His PDO being high is because everyone's is because of an extremely high on ice SV%. He's actually one of the few players on our team with a personal SH% below his career norm and his on ice SH% is in the bottom half of our team (we have a high team SH% obviously.)

Feels like this is mostly just a rehash of the Subban arguments but about Pacioretty because he's the new guy (was going to be him or Galchenyuk) with anecdotal bad defensive play stories, discussing giveaways, penalties taken and poor leadership. I also don't know that he was that controversial of a captain choice, I mean the players selected him and he only seemed to become controversial after we sucked largely due to an awful team SV% and huge midseason PDO crash. It feels like the only people really annoyed with who the players selected was Subban fans and it's becoming clearer and clearer they were never going to vote him captain. There's a lot of dynamics there I don't know about personally or care about, the captaincy is irrelevant. Let the players pick and other than that, who cares? On the penalties thing, he's taken the same number of minors as Galchenyuk in more TOI and if anyone has been really bad it's been Radulov. It hasn't been a major issue for me. 5 minors in 16 games. He needs to use his speed and draw more for sure.

He can and likely will be better, but he's played OK, not poorly. I'm loathe to talk about his goal pace this early in the season but yes, he's on pace for a low total. He's also on pace for over 60 points with a bad start. I think he's obviously played below his peak level and he's our best forward and will need to be our best forward for us to have long term success but again, it's been 16 so-so games

I thought people overreacted to and looked for reasons to be hard on Subban, especially after he signed the massive contract and it feels like Pacioretty has gotten the same treatment after being voted the C and most of the arguments against each was the same (giveaways, leadership/lockerroom, bad penalties, instances of defensive mistakes). 

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3 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Pacioretty is simply a neutral player out there. He has no enthusiasm and shows no leadership IMO.

I can't say anything about leadership because I don't know how to qualify/quantify that in front of a TV screen, but IMO he's playing with the same enthusiasm or lack thereof as in years prior. Despite his size, he never really used his body like maybe a Jamie Benn or Ryan Kesler for example and that's not going to change. Still, he drives possession, he's a very good skater given his size and he has a lethal shot, these are his biggest assets I think and they're valuable. I agree with roy, he hasn't been great but certainly not as bad as some make it out to be.

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The differences between the Pacioretty and Subban cases are

- with respect to turnovers, both guys have had important slip ups, but Subban was a D man and was put in a higher-risk situation for turnovers by virtue of his job in a system where the forwards are busy floating at center ice and there were no outlet options. Subban also handled the puck more than any player in the league, so his turnover RATE actually wasn't that high, even if his absolute numbers were.

- The numbers I posted above show Pacioretty has been fairly weak on both special teams thus far. Subban by contrast was on a bad PP last year but was on the scoresheet for most of our goals and on the ice for many of them at ES as well.

- Subban was ragged for "not trying hard" and "only caring about himself and not the team", neither of which there seemed to be much on-ice evidence of. I'm not suggesting Pacioretty doesn't want to win or doesn't love his team. I'm saying there are numerous instances over the past two years where he's taken lazy penalties, made soft passes, and/or failed to backcheck. These aren't cases of trying to do too much, like with Subban trying to deke out the entire opposition. These are cases where his head just doesn't appear to be in the game at times. As a captain, I think he absolutely should be held to a higher standard for things like this. He's not the most rah-rah guy, so his value as a captain has to come from his on-ice performance being a notch above the rest.

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32 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

The differences between the Pacioretty and Subban cases are

- with respect to turnovers, both guys have had important slip ups, but Subban was a D man and was put in a higher-risk situation for turnovers by virtue of his job in a system where the forwards are busy floating at center ice and there were no outlet options. Subban also handled the puck more than any player in the league, so his turnover RATE actually wasn't that high, even if his absolute numbers were.

- The numbers I posted above show Pacioretty has been fairly weak on both special teams thus far. Subban by contrast was on a bad PP last year but was on the scoresheet for most of our goals and on the ice for many of them at ES as well.

- Subban was ragged for "not trying hard" and "only caring about himself and not the team", neither of which there seemed to be much on-ice evidence of. I'm not suggesting Pacioretty doesn't want to win or doesn't love his team. I'm saying there are numerous instances over the past two years where he's taken lazy penalties, made soft passes, and/or failed to backcheck. These aren't cases of trying to do too much, like with Subban trying to deke out the entire opposition. These are cases where his head just doesn't appear to be in the game at times. As a captain, I think he absolutely should be held to a higher standard for things like this. He's not the most rah-rah guy, so his value as a captain has to come from his on-ice performance being a notch above the rest.

On the issue of his lack of leadership, well articulated as usual BT.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

The differences between the Pacioretty and Subban cases are

- with respect to turnovers, both guys have had important slip ups, but Subban was a D man and was put in a higher-risk situation for turnovers by virtue of his job in a system where the forwards are busy floating at center ice and there were no outlet options. Subban also handled the puck more than any player in the league, so his turnover RATE actually wasn't that high, even if his absolute numbers were.

- The numbers I posted above show Pacioretty has been fairly weak on both special teams thus far. Subban by contrast was on a bad PP last year but was on the scoresheet for most of our goals and on the ice for many of them at ES as well.

- Subban was ragged for "not trying hard" and "only caring about himself and not the team", neither of which there seemed to be much on-ice evidence of. I'm not suggesting Pacioretty doesn't want to win or doesn't love his team. I'm saying there are numerous instances over the past two years where he's taken lazy penalties, made soft passes, and/or failed to backcheck. These aren't cases of trying to do too much, like with Subban trying to deke out the entire opposition. These are cases where his head just doesn't appear to be in the game at times. As a captain, I think he absolutely should be held to a higher standard for things like this. He's not the most rah-rah guy, so his value as a captain has to come from his on-ice performance being a notch above the rest.

Well the thing with turnovers is there's no actual useful metrics on it, NHL real time stats, which I don't trust has Pacioretty with a middle of the pack on our roster 6 giveaways and leading our team with 12 takeaways, sort of jives with what I've seen, obviously they under count both but I don't think turnovers has been that big of an issue, which was my point. It wasn't that a DMan and forward should be compared equally when it comes to turnovers, it's just usually an argument people use on skill players who have the puck a lot and play a lot of minutes. It's easy to notice when you look for it and rag on guys and we both saw it happen like crazy with Subban and now it's Pacioretty.

Yes, his PP work needs to be better, although it's never been quite his jam but the argument stems from my point about saying people are overstating how much he's "struggled".

People who ragged Subban for that kind of thing weren't being fair and I'm not sure why the buck has been moved to Pacioretty. Like I said, almost all penalties are lazy, at least to the die. He hasn't been problematic really in that regard, given his ice time and his match-ups. I don't know what to say, if this guy is capable of being that kind of possession player with his head not in the game for stretches, he's a monster. The whole captain thing doesn't move the needle for me, it doesn't matter as captain or as assistant captain or whatever, he was voted captain by his teammates for reasons you and I will never probably know but I don't think it matters. IF anything I think Subban's cap hit was more of a reason for added angst than a letter on a jersey, since that had actual roster building implications. His value as captain, to me, is whatever he was doing that caused the players to vote him captain and that's probably a lot of things we don't know about but also driving the needle on the ice. Andrew Berkshire tweeted that people rag on him because they want Cam Neely and they have Marian Hossa and I found that to be an interesting and apt way to put it.

He's leading our team in shots, he's our best possession player, he plays a fair bit of minutes and usually gets tough matchups and yes, he's started a pretty meh by his standards, there's more there. He'll go on a streak at some point I'm sure and the numbers will correct. He's better than he's been but he's still been good. He's also bounced around on line and he's playing with 2 complete nonplaymakers right now. He's played well and produced but I think at this point they should maybe just stick him Pleks and Gallagher together, our 3 best shot producers and hope it clicks. They would definitely be our top line in terms of match ups and handling the tough minutes at worst.

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A quick nerdy interlude on giveaways/takeaways as recorded by the NHL's RTSS. They're recorded by scorekeepers, just as the categories of shot attempts are. Shots are significantly less subjective however, and the difference between a block and a miss doesn't matter that much when you're talking about Corsi. I think the concept might be worthwhile, but the data from the NHL do not represent what we want to think it does. I don't even bother parsing them anymore.

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I'm fully agreed with everyone here that turnovers are a very subjective stat... they tend to vary greatly from one arena/scorekeeper to another and are probably only somewhat useful comparing players on the same team and same position. I watch games and note to myself that Player X gave the puck away several times and then check the boxscore and see no turnovers listed, so it's clearly not overly reliable a stat...  to some degree the eye test comes into play here, as variable as that can be.

The thing with Pacioretty is that I don't even think he's a bad player. In fact, I think he's one of the top players on the team. He's in my view our 2nd best forward after Galchenyuk but I can see an argument for him being #1 or #3 as well. Regardless, he's a useful player, an elite goal-scorer, and a player on a bargain contract. And as I've said before, I'm not so concerned about his production being low because he's always scored in bunches, and the goals will likely come and push the projections back up. My big concern is that whereas Subban was constantly bashed and underrated by the media and his coaches, Pacioretty has been held up on a pedestal as a model citizen, and I simply think that needs to be clarified. Whereas guys like Eller, Subban, PAP, and Galchenyuk have been criticized, benched, or called out for turnovers and bad penalties and being too creative and not playing the system, Pacioretty has been just a guilty and doesn't seem to ever get called on it. I think too many people looked at his +/- a couple of years ago and decided he was a defensive stud and a great PK player, and that's simply not the case. And many people just assume he should be a top choice for the PP, which is also not what the production numbers show.

I think there's a great argument to be made for Pacioretty's possession numbers and scoring ability and worth to the team, especially with the value we're getting on his deal. But I also think he gets too much of a free pass from the coach and the media, just like Markov and Plekanec, and I think it's important to talk about what he doesn't do well in addition to what he does. To me, it's unfair that some players are held to different standards, and there's evidence to suggest Pacioretty is overrated by his coach.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I'm fully agreed with everyone here that turnovers are a very subjective stat... they tend to vary greatly from one arena/scorekeeper to another and are probably only somewhat useful comparing players on the same team and same position. I watch games and note to myself that Player X gave the puck away several times and then check the boxscore and see no turnovers listed, so it's clearly not overly reliable a stat...  to some degree the eye test comes into play here, as variable as that can be.

The thing with Pacioretty is that I don't even think he's a bad player. In fact, I think he's one of the top players on the team. He's in my view our 2nd best forward after Galchenyuk but I can see an argument for him being #1 or #3 as well. Regardless, he's a useful player, an elite goal-scorer, and a player on a bargain contract. And as I've said before, I'm not so concerned about his production being low because he's always scored in bunches, and the goals will likely come and push the projections back up. My big concern is that whereas Subban was constantly bashed and underrated by the media and his coaches, Pacioretty has been held up on a pedestal as a model citizen, and I simply think that needs to be clarified. Whereas guys like Eller, Subban, PAP, and Galchenyuk have been criticized, benched, or called out for turnovers and bad penalties and being too creative and not playing the system, Pacioretty has been just a guilty and doesn't seem to ever get called on it. I think too many people looked at his +/- a couple of years ago and decided he was a defensive stud and a great PK player, and that's simply not the case. And many people just assume he should be a top choice for the PP, which is also not what the production numbers show.

I think there's a great argument to be made for Pacioretty's possession numbers and scoring ability and worth to the team, especially with the value we're getting on his deal. But I also think he gets too much of a free pass from the coach and the media, just like Markov and Plekanec, and I think it's important to talk about what he doesn't do well in addition to what he does. To me, it's unfair that some players are held to different standards, and there's evidence to suggest Pacioretty is overrated by his coach.

Therein lies the problem IMO. Our coach's miss-perception.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I think there's a great argument to be made for Pacioretty's possession numbers and scoring ability and worth to the team, especially with the value we're getting on his deal. But I also think he gets too much of a free pass from the coach and the media, just like Markov and Plekanec, and I think it's important to talk about what he doesn't do well in addition to what he does. To me, it's unfair that some players are held to different standards, and there's evidence to suggest Pacioretty is overrated by his coach.

I'm not sure there's really an overrating though, Therrien has utilized him as our best all around forward and he has been by a pretty fair margin during Therrien's tenure. The 18-19 minutes he's been playing a year since Therrien took over is IMO completely fair given his production both in advanced #s and counting #s. This year he's ticked a bit below the usual bar to about 17:30 but it seems like it's because we've rolled the lines more evenly than anything. No issue with that.

As for the media going easy on him, I don't see it. It's like any player in Montreal, there's a portion that defends him but there's also a portion that complains that he doesn't play like a power forward, doesn't go to the net ect. On Therrien, I'm not really sure I buy that he should spend more time calling his veterans and best players out. I thought it was ridiculous and a mistake that he was doing it to Subban and I think it would be a mistake to start with other key players. Montreal is a crazy market, when you start publicly doing things like that you put a target on the guy's back, even more so. I think the mistake was doing it to Subban, not the lack of doing it to others. 

He's consistent, productive and if anything I'd argue he catches more heat than he deserves because the fan base wants a power forward and obviously now because of the C. He's one of the best, most consistent players in the league at his position and has a ridiculously team friendly contract. I get why people wouldn't be enamored with him to a degree, his style isn't sexy to watch like a Galchenyuk. He doesn't evoke a lot of passion from me the way other players have in terms of as a fan necessarily. If we were to ever lose him we'd have an impossible time replacing what he does for any cap hit, nevermind 4.5. The minutes, the consistent scoring, the possession, the tough match ups. During his tenure he's been able to play on any line and make that line a positive possession line and productive. Including with some less than great centers and wingers. I just don't think that it's a situation where he needs to be given more heat. 

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3 hours ago, roy_133 said:

He's consistent, productive and if anything I'd argue he catches more heat than he deserves because the fan base wants a power forward and obviously now because of the C. He's one of the best, most consistent players in the league at his position and has a ridiculously team friendly contract. I get why people wouldn't be enamored with him to a degree, his style isn't sexy to watch like a Galchenyuk. He doesn't evoke a lot of passion from me the way other players have in terms of as a fan necessarily. If we were to ever lose him we'd have an impossible time replacing what he does for any cap hit, nevermind 4.5. The minutes, the consistent scoring, the possession, the tough match ups. During his tenure he's been able to play on any line and make that line a positive possession line and productive. Including with some less than great centers and wingers. I just don't think that it's a situation where he needs to be given more heat. 

I think that's been his problem since the beginning and part of the reason why he's not that loved by the fan base, people see that 6'2 frame and automatically assume he's the second coming of John Leclair. Not his game though, never will be. As shown last night, he's has that amazing release and is capable of beating any goalie with it but he'll always be a perimeter player. I'm with you though, his goal scoring numbers are down this year but he's still been reasonably productive compared to the guys he's been playing with. Besides, he's always able to go on a streak and score at a great clip for stretches. I don't think he'll come close to 40 this year but he should still be able to reach the 30 goal plateau, which is still amazing value given his contract.

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1 hour ago, ChiLla said:

I think that's been his problem since the beginning and part of the reason why he's not that loved by the fan base, people see that 6'2 frame and automatically assume he's the second coming of John Leclair. Not his game though, never will be. As shown last night, he's has that amazing release and is capable of beating any goalie with it but he'll always be a perimeter player. I'm with you though, his goal scoring numbers are down this year but he's still been reasonably productive compared to the guys he's been playing with. Besides, he's always able to go on a streak and score at a great clip for stretches. I don't think he'll come close to 40 this year but he should still be able to reach the 30 goal plateau, which is still amazing value given his contract.

Agreed. He needs to play within himself, his skill set isn't standing on the top of the goalie. He's one of a pretty small number of guys who can beat goalies clean semi-consistently so why have a guy who can do that stand in front of the goalie trying to deflect pucks because he's tall? He's consistent year to year because he sticks to his game and what makes him a really good player. This year he's been down, he needs to generate more shots and he needs to be put on a line that makes sense. I still think we should just put him Pleks and Gallagher together and hope they click, there's a lot of shot generation and possession potential on that line and they can take really heavy match-ups. 

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29 minutes ago, roy_133 said:

Agreed. He needs to play within himself, his skill set isn't standing on the top of the goalie. He's one of a pretty small number of guys who can beat goalies clean semi-consistently so why have a guy who can do that stand in front of the goalie trying to deflect pucks because he's tall? He's consistent year to year because he sticks to his game and what makes him a really good player. This year he's been down, he needs to generate more shots and he needs to be put on a line that makes sense. I still think we should just put him Pleks and Gallagher together and hope they click, there's a lot of shot generation and possession potential on that line and they can take really heavy match-ups. 

Patches-Pleks-Gallagher is probably the best option we have at this point, although Plekanec remains a huge question mark. I've always loved the guy for his effectiveness and he's still playing responsible hockey but no matter how you look at it, those offensive numbers are awful. We're basically talking about an offensive output that's inferior to Scott Gomez in his second year as a Hab, which is unacceptable given Pleky's Cap hit. Still, I don't think there's anything else that really makes sense for Pacioretty. Sure, Patches-Galchenyuk-Radulov would likely work well but in that case, we'd have a second line of Byron/Lehkonen-DD/Pleks-Gallagher, i.e. dramatically undersized and not viable in the playoffs IMO.

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3 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Patches-Pleks-Gallagher is probably the best option we have at this point, although Plekanec remains a huge question mark. I've always loved the guy for his effectiveness and he's still playing responsible hockey but no matter how you look at it, those offensive numbers are awful. We're basically talking about an offensive output that's inferior to Scott Gomez in his second year as a Hab, which is unacceptable given Pleky's Cap hit. Still, I don't think there's anything else that really makes sense for Pacioretty. Sure, Patches-Galchenyuk-Radulov would likely work well but in that case, we'd have a second line of Byron/Lehkonen-DD/Pleks-Gallagher, i.e. dramatically undersized and not viable in the playoffs IMO.

 

Which is why it's not so much the size of one individual player that's an issue but having smaller players makes it difficult to fit them in together in the line-up, just as having multiple slow bigger players is also a problem. Given the complement of guys we have, I'd love to see Mike McCarron given a shot in the top 9. His size and physicality would really help offset what we have now without our just plugging in a skill-less goon. I personally like the idea of Pacman-Galch-Radu just to get Pacman going, and then no issue with splitting them up afterwards... but something like Lehk-Galch-Radu, Pac-Mac-Gall could work and would free up Pleks to play 3C.

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2 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Which is why it's not so much the size of one individual player that's an issue but having smaller players makes it difficult to fit them in together in the line-up, just as having multiple slow bigger players is also a problem. Given the complement of guys we have, I'd love to see Mike McCarron given a shot in the top 9. His size and physicality would really help offset what we have now without our just plugging in a skill-less goon. I personally like the idea of Pacman-Galch-Radu just to get Pacman going, and then no issue with splitting them up afterwards... but something like Lehk-Galch-Radu, Pac-Mac-Gall could work and would free up Pleks to play 3C.

Absolutely, it's about finding combinations that work regardless of size, but the aforementioned 2nd line where the 'beefiest' player would be Lehkonen or Plekanec is a non-starter for me. Having McCarron in the lineup would definitely give us additional options and I really wouldn't mind trying that Pacioretty-McCarron-Gallagher combination you suggested. Since Plekanec isn't contributing much offensively anyway and both Pacioretty and Gallagher can hold their own defensively, I don't think it's that much of a risk to take. Of course this would also mean we'd have to scratch DD, which is also the reason why it's unlikely to happen.

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So for those wishing for Therrien to call out Pacioretty, he did it today. I don't see many instances where calling out your core players has worked and it sure ended well with Subban, but people should be happy now. 

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15 minutes ago, roy_133 said:

So for those wishing for Therrien to call out Pacioretty, he did it today. I don't see many instances where calling out your core players has worked and it sure ended well with Subban, but people should be happy now. 

This.

Calling out players is, frankly, never a good thing.  You either call out a lazy guy- who really doesnt care about being called out - or a guy who is snake-bit and now tightens his stick even more.   For a guy like Pacioretty I can see it being a terrible move:  He already seems to be putting too much pressure on himself - calling out his play is definitely not going to help with that.

I still cant help but think that they (management) are trying to push Pacioretty to give up the C so they can give it to Weber. 

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I think Max has been put in a tough spot. Chuck's line is now getting all the o zone starts and whenever possible the easy match ups to take advantage of it being a offensive line. I would still like to see Pacs given a chance on that line with Chick & Rad. He's now being played with DD who's game is definitely off and shaw or someone else. At least put him back with Pleks and Gallager. Pacs with Gallager has worked before find a center and get gallager going also. Or go back to Gallager with Pacs & DD if Terrien won't let go of DD/Pacs together. Pacs has been using his size more lately but that really isn't his game being the guy in the corners sending the puck out. He needs to be the trigger man. The guy they head man the puck up to. Or go back to Pacs/Gallage/Pleks . Give Pacs something to work with. I wouldn't mind seeing him with Rad & Chucky on the first PP also.

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It blows my mind how much hockey people overthink this stuff all the time. Like yeah he's struggling a bit but good god we're talking about a guy who's 7th in goals (and one goal behind Seguin/Tavares for T5th place) since 2011-12. Play your best players with other good players. Stop overthinking this stuff. Paul Byron is great but good lord he's still Paul Byron. Whatever magic fairy dust Paul Byron brings to a line doesn't make up for the fact that he's not Max Pacioretty.

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1 minute ago, ramcharger440 said:

Hmmm, you know for a game or two playing with Mitchell as he was in practice might work. a line of Patches Mitchell and Gallagher could be decent for a couple of games. at the end of the day Patches has to start getting it done like a big boy though.

 He's playing with Torrey Mitchell and Andrew Shaw. One of the top 10 goal scorers over the past half decade playing with Torrey Mitchell and Andrew Shaw. It's indefensible. It's just dumb and self fulfilling stuff for a coach to do. He's not going to score at his usual pace getting crappy 3rd line minutes with two 3rd line plugs, and that will just be further excuse to keep playing him less and with plugs and grinders.

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