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#65 Andrew Shaw 2016-17


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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Don't think anyone was saying they won because they were fighters and dirty players. More saying they won while playing a dirty/tough style of hockey. They tried to intimidate people, they took a lot of cheapshots, they took a lot of penalties, and they still won. Some people might think they won despite that and others might believe the intimidation helped them against their opponents. Who knows. Point is that MB seems to be of the belief that he needs guys who cross the line, like Shaw and Weber, to help this team (we also know he was very interested in trying to sign Lucic) and he obviously thinks that having a few dirty players will pay off in the long run.

Yeah I was mostly just speaking rhetorically, I know nobody thinks Chris Kelly was their main driver but I just find it so frustrating that the narrative is always around toughness instead of the Bruins having the best goalie in 2011, the arguably best defenseman in 2011, and probably the 2nd best center in 2011. 

I agree, Shaw, Weber, and Lucic are all perfectly fine players to have on your team but I think they're probably wanted in Montreal for the wrong reasons, and that's why the team traded one of the best defensemen alive for Weber, traded a super solid two way center on a bargain deal to sign Shaw to a hilarious contract, and was ready to back up the money truck for Lucic. They're all good players but they're getting overvalued for their grit and hyped up for the dirty plays.

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1 hour ago, Noob616 said:

Yeah I was mostly just speaking rhetorically, I know nobody thinks Chris Kelly was their main driver but I just find it so frustrating that the narrative is always around toughness instead of the Bruins having the best goalie in 2011, the arguably best defenseman in 2011, and probably the 2nd best center in 2011. 

I agree, Shaw, Weber, and Lucic are all perfectly fine players to have on your team but I think they're probably wanted in Montreal for the wrong reasons, and that's why the team traded one of the best defensemen alive for Weber, traded a super solid two way center on a bargain deal to sign Shaw to a hilarious contract, and was ready to back up the money truck for Lucic. They're all good players but they're getting overvalued for their grit and hyped up for the dirty plays.

Absolutely. You look at Eller and he's a better defensive player than Shaw, a pretty comparable offensive player, and gives more value as a penalty killer and centerman. The only things that Bergevin and company have been able to come up with to support Shaw and the awful contract we gave him are his "grit" and "character" and the fact "he's a Cup winner." As I've said before, Moen and Gionta and Gomez and Gill and Kovalev and so on were Cup winners and that didn't translate into a Cup win here, nor did it guarantee they had more ability to win than the likes of Koivu, Subban, Eller, or Price. So far, Shaw's "character" seems to best be described as that of a guy who has uttered racist slurs, given cheapshots, and mocked his opponent during a fight by asking the crowd for support. To me, none of that is character, at least not good character. I just don't get how MT and MB can be okay with this and applaud it, yet hate Subban so vehemently. Does having players like Shaw and Weber help you win Cups? I don't see evidence for this. Toews talked about how glad he was that Weber was out of his division, but even if the Hawks were intimidated by Weber, they still beat them repeatedly and found ways to win Cups with speed and skill, whereas Weber and company had zero in Nasvhille and never even made a conference final. Did the Hawks win because Shaw scared his opponents into caving in? No. He certainly helped the team by going to the net and creating havoc, but the cheapshots and comments had nothing to do with that. A guy like Gallagher does all the work ethic things right too, does so without being dirty, and boasts the skill to complement that. To me, Gallagher is a valuable player and Shaw's value is much lower, and that value doesn't stem from the things MB and MT believe to be character.

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Not sure there is any hate out there for Subban either with staff or players. There appears to be enough thought put into decisions that would eliminate the the blindness of hate although hate may appear to be a better term for some of the feelings toward management. I think we have put together a better team entering each of the training camps under Bergevin's tenure with this being the best group of young prospects and signings entering training camp yet. Bergevin has shown consistent measured responses to players who cross the line and I expect Shaw to get the boot if he has another incident of this nature. Embarrassing the team on the ice has not gone over well regardless of the players stature under Bergy's watch.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Habberwacky said:

Not sure there is any hate out there for Subban either with staff or players. There appears to be enough thought put into decisions that would eliminate the the blindness of hate although hate may appear to be a better term for some of the feelings toward management. I think we have put together a better team entering each of the training camps under Bergevin's tenure with this being the best group of young prospects and signings entering training camp yet. Bergevin has shown consistent measured responses to players who cross the line and I expect Shaw to get the boot if he has another incident of this nature. Embarrassing the team on the ice has not gone over well regardless of the players stature under Bergy's watch.

 

I don't have a better word than hate to describe how Therrien and Bergevin acted towards Subban. Contempt for him, maybe? Dislike? I'm not sure the exact word is what matters. We know for a fact that Therrien took every opportunity he could to bash Subban on Antichambre before he became coach and in press conferences afterwards. Neither MT nor MB supported PK towards being included on national teams, yet they openly supported Price. They didn't jockey for him to win the Norris when he was in contention. Bergevin tried his best to avoid paying him money in two consecutive contract negotiations, and his owner had to step in to overrule him. Therrien criticized Subban for making a mistake and turning over the puck against Colorado but didn't say a peep about Pacioretty's lazy back-check, and on a similar play when Markov fell and turned over the game-winning goal against St. Louis in OT, Therrien went out of his way to support Markov and defend him for being over-worked. There is strong evidence to suggest Therrien and Bergevin treated Subban unfairly and that they were looking for a reason and a way to ship him out of town.

Now, one can argue whether there were hockey reasons to trade Subban. One can argue that other players didn't respond well to Subban's big personality. And who knows, maybe the locker room is better off without Subban, even if it isn't really Subban's fault that his larger-than-life personality rubbed some the wrong way. But regardless of what any of us thinks about this, the fact remains that it is wrong for a coach to act so vehemently unjust towards a player, to encourage the attacks against this player, and to try to punish him to win a personal battle of egos. To me, that's hatred. You can call it what you want, it doesn't bother me if we want to agree on another term. But in my view, a coach should always be trying to make the best of what he's given and to unite his troops. He should support his players and want to do what's best for winning games. Therrien did none of that. He put his own ego ahead of the team and made his war against Subban personal. He did his best to turn the media and Subban's teammates against him. That's a terrible terrible thing for a coach to do. I lack respect for Therrien because of this type of thing. A coach should be above that.

The Shaw incident just further highlights the unfair treatment PK received. Subban and Price weren't allowed to do the triple low five, yet Shaw is allowed to raise the crowd up during a fight? We're told Subban doesn't have the right personality to fit into this team, yet Shaw is brought in despite a history of uttering racist slurs? We're told Subban is too reckless, while Shaw gets a 3-game suspension for a hit from behind in his first Habs game and his coach laughs it off as being part of his grit and toughness. There's a double standard here. Subban was ripped apart for doing far less than what we've seen from players like Markov, Emelin, Pacioretty, and so on. It appears Shaw will also be given favorable treatment from his coach, because once the coach makes up his mind about whether he likes you (Markov, Gallagher, Plekanec, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Price, Byron, Weise, Weber) or doesn't (Subban, Galchenyuk, Eller, Briere, PAP, Sekac, Tinordi, DSP) that just seems to be it for the rest of your time in Montreal.

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31 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

I don't have a better word than hate to describe how Therrien and Bergevin acted towards Subban. Contempt for him, maybe? Dislike? I'm not sure the exact word is what matters. We know for a fact that Therrien took every opportunity he could to bash Subban on Antichambre before he became coach and in press conferences afterwards. Neither MT nor MB supported PK towards being included on national teams, yet they openly supported Price. They didn't jockey for him to win the Norris when he was in contention. Bergevin tried his best to avoid paying him money in two consecutive contract negotiations, and his owner had to step in to overrule him. Therrien criticized Subban for making a mistake and turning over the puck against Colorado but didn't say a peep about Pacioretty's lazy back-check, and on a similar play when Markov fell and turned over the game-winning goal against St. Louis in OT, Therrien went out of his way to support Markov and defend him for being over-worked. There is strong evidence to suggest Therrien and Bergevin treated Subban unfairly and that they were looking for a reason and a way to ship him out of town.

Now, one can argue whether there were hockey reasons to trade Subban. One can argue that other players didn't respond well to Subban's big personality. And who knows, maybe the locker room is better off without Subban, even if it isn't really Subban's fault that his larger-than-life personality rubbed some the wrong way. But regardless of what any of us thinks about this, the fact remains that it is wrong for a coach to act so vehemently unjust towards a player, to encourage the attacks against this player, and to try to punish him to win a personal battle of egos. To me, that's hatred. You can call it what you want, it doesn't bother me if we want to agree on another term. But in my view, a coach should always be trying to make the best of what he's given and to unite his troops. He should support his players and want to do what's best for winning games. Therrien did none of that. He put his own ego ahead of the team and made his war against Subban personal. He did his best to turn the media and Subban's teammates against him. That's a terrible terrible thing for a coach to do. I lack respect for Therrien because of this type of thing. A coach should be above that.

The Shaw incident just further highlights the unfair treatment PK received. Subban and Price weren't allowed to do the triple low five, yet Shaw is allowed to raise the crowd up during a fight? We're told Subban doesn't have the right personality to fit into this team, yet Shaw is brought in despite a history of uttering racist slurs? We're told Subban is too reckless, while Shaw gets a 3-game suspension for a hit from behind in his first Habs game and his coach laughs it off as being part of his grit and toughness. There's a double standard here. Subban was ripped apart for doing far less than what we've seen from players like Markov, Emelin, Pacioretty, and so on. It appears Shaw will also be given favorable treatment from his coach, because once the coach makes up his mind about whether he likes you (Markov, Gallagher, Plekanec, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Price, Byron, Weise, Weber) or doesn't (Subban, Galchenyuk, Eller, Briere, PAP, Sekac, Tinordi, DSP) that just seems to be it for the rest of your time in Montreal.

 

Brilliant post.  Subban always represented the CH with pride.  Never did anything off the ice to embarrass the team like driving this truck into a tree or any other such nonsense. The fact is Therrien and Bergevin had preconceived opinions about PK even before they were hired and traded him for nonhockey reasons. I really believe that.   

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22 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

 We're told Subban doesn't have the right personality to fit into this team, yet Shaw is brought in despite a history of uttering racist slurs?

Maybe MB and MT didn't think what Shaw said was racist.

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On 10/1/2016 at 8:07 PM, BigTed3 said:

 

I don't have a better word than hate to describe how Therrien and Bergevin acted towards Subban. Contempt for him, maybe? Dislike? I'm not sure the exact word is what matters. We know for a fact that Therrien took every opportunity he could to bash Subban on Antichambre before he became coach and in press conferences afterwards. Neither MT nor MB supported PK towards being included on national teams, yet they openly supported Price. They didn't jockey for him to win the Norris when he was in contention. Bergevin tried his best to avoid paying him money in two consecutive contract negotiations, and his owner had to step in to overrule him. Therrien criticized Subban for making a mistake and turning over the puck against Colorado but didn't say a peep about Pacioretty's lazy back-check, and on a similar play when Markov fell and turned over the game-winning goal against St. Louis in OT, Therrien went out of his way to support Markov and defend him for being over-worked. There is strong evidence to suggest Therrien and Bergevin treated Subban unfairly and that they were looking for a reason and a way to ship him out of town.

Now, one can argue whether there were hockey reasons to trade Subban. One can argue that other players didn't respond well to Subban's big personality. And who knows, maybe the locker room is better off without Subban, even if it isn't really Subban's fault that his larger-than-life personality rubbed some the wrong way. But regardless of what any of us thinks about this, the fact remains that it is wrong for a coach to act so vehemently unjust towards a player, to encourage the attacks against this player, and to try to punish him to win a personal battle of egos. To me, that's hatred. You can call it what you want, it doesn't bother me if we want to agree on another term. But in my view, a coach should always be trying to make the best of what he's given and to unite his troops. He should support his players and want to do what's best for winning games. Therrien did none of that. He put his own ego ahead of the team and made his war against Subban personal. He did his best to turn the media and Subban's teammates against him. That's a terrible terrible thing for a coach to do. I lack respect for Therrien because of this type of thing. A coach should be above that.

The Shaw incident just further highlights the unfair treatment PK received. Subban and Price weren't allowed to do the triple low five, yet Shaw is allowed to raise the crowd up during a fight? We're told Subban doesn't have the right personality to fit into this team, yet Shaw is brought in despite a history of uttering racist slurs? We're told Subban is too reckless, while Shaw gets a 3-game suspension for a hit from behind in his first Habs game and his coach laughs it off as being part of his grit and toughness. There's a double standard here. Subban was ripped apart for doing far less than what we've seen from players like Markov, Emelin, Pacioretty, and so on. It appears Shaw will also be given favorable treatment from his coach, because once the coach makes up his mind about whether he likes you (Markov, Gallagher, Plekanec, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Price, Byron, Weise, Weber) or doesn't (Subban, Galchenyuk, Eller, Briere, PAP, Sekac, Tinordi, DSP) that just seems to be it for the rest of your time in Montreal.

I was trying to explain this to a friend the other day but I couldn't put it together this eloquently.  Excellent post. 

 

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2 hours ago, kinot-1 said:

Canadiens coach Michel Therrien said Shaw will meet next week with general manager Marc Bergevin and NHL Department of Player Safety head Stephane Quintal for "education."
 

Good to hear. He has some great talent, but appears lacking a little between the ears with some of the decisions he makes. It would not be good if he ends up like a Raffi Torres or Simon. If Mr. Wideman can stop running officials hopefully Shaw can stop slew footing players. I am sure of one thing. Bergevin will not tolerate this. Seeing the slewfoot happen so quickly after his return from a suspension causes me some significant concern.

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Didn't we just sign Shaw to a 6-year deal because he's supposed to be the embodiment of Chicago's winning culture, i.e. he brings what this team has apparently been lacking in the past? Yet now he needs 'education' on how to play the game? I'm confused.

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13 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Isnt MT going to try and make him into a better human being and a better hockey player :4224:like he did with PK

What about Shaw makes you think he needs to improve? He's clearly got so much grit and character that he'd never even dream of doing anything individualistic.

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These guys get paid a nice salary to do what they do, but money unfortunately does not come with a magic fix that solves all. your problems. The list of athletes who burn out is long. Shaw will either figure it out or he won't. Bergevin has shown a willingness to stand behind these players and provide them an opportunity to start fresh. Some can and some can't. Hopefully Shaw figures it out before he heads to his third team.

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33 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

These guys get paid a nice salary to do what they do, but money unfortunately does not come with a magic fix that solves all. your problems. The list of athletes who burn out is long. Shaw will either figure it out or he won't. Bergevin has shown a willingness to stand behind these players and provide them an opportunity to start fresh. Some can and some can't. Hopefully Shaw figures it out before he heads to his third team.

Well, he just signed a 6 year 23.4 Mil. contract in June, I don't think he "can" be traded with that contract. 

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55 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

These guys get paid a nice salary to do what they do, but money unfortunately does not come with a magic fix that solves all. your problems. The list of athletes who burn out is long. Shaw will either figure it out or he won't. Bergevin has shown a willingness to stand behind these players and provide them an opportunity to start fresh. Some can and some can't. Hopefully Shaw figures it out before he heads to his third team.

I certainly do hope he figures it out, considering the massive contract Bergevin handed to him on a silver platter. If he doesn't, we're in something of a pickle.

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6 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

another solid game no issues so far looks like a pretty good player overall.

Definitely looking better now that he's calmed the emotions a bit.

I will forever tie him to losing Eller because we basically made the swap for the cap.  I am not sure if Shaw at wing helps this team more than Eller at centre but I do see a spot for him in the lineup.   Would make a lot more sense if he was being paid as a third liner though ($2.5m for 2 years or something). 

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On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 2:21 PM, maas_art said:

Definitely looking better now that he's calmed the emotions a bit.

I will forever tie him to losing Eller because we basically made the swap for the cap.  I am not sure if Shaw at wing helps this team more than Eller at centre but I do see a spot for him in the lineup.   Would make a lot more sense if he was being paid as a third liner though ($2.5m for 2 years or something). 

I think he's going to bring a good skill set to the bottom six and can fill when needed in the top. It looks like he's starting to settle and should be solid for us. I liked Eller to but it's not fair to judge him by comparison. He had nothing to do with it and would we feel the same if the cap space had brought us a top sniper?

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