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Marc Bergevin and staff 2016-17


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Nothing we fans can do anything about. Molson makes the decision and he's pretty much in love at this moment.

Meh, he wants to give MB all the chances, but believe Molson has MB on a very short leash.

I doubt MB will be here much longer. Like i said in other posts, with owning the habs and his family name, there's a lot of pressure on him. He doesn't want to be the only molson owner to not win a cup.

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Who wants to bet MB has enquired about Ryspayev ? He single handedly landed punches to like 8 different players' faces in one sequence just 3 minutes into a KHL preseason game:

http://www.tsn.ca/must-see/video/must-see-ryspayev-tries-to-fight-everyone-in-khl-preseason-game~926286

But... but...we have DD.

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Who wants to bet MB has enquired about Ryspayev ? He single handedly landed punches to like 8 different players' faces in one sequence just 3 minutes into a KHL preseason game:

http://www.tsn.ca/must-see/video/must-see-ryspayev-tries-to-fight-everyone-in-khl-preseason-game~926286

And who will Bergevin decide is expendable if he has indeed inquired about Ryspayev?

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  • 3 weeks later...
Ya know,,,,,,, ultimately Bergevin has to be held accountable for Therriens decisions.

He (MB) chose (in his opinion) the best coach available, and it went downhill from there.

He brought in Therrien who disliked PK on Antichambre, and brought his dislike for PK to the bench.

It started with MT's disapproval of the triple-low five, so that was gone. Then it was the benching, and calling out PK for coughing up the puck that led to a goal, when there were 4 other players who were on the ice at the same time, but MT singled PK out.

PK signed a lucrative contract (justifiably so), and before his NTC kicked in,,, he was gone.

MT also disliked Lars (for whatever reason), and eventually he was gone. IMO, Lars was a versatile forward who did everything he was asked to do, but apparently it wasn't enough for MT.

MB liked Shaw as he was a "winner" in Chicago. Well he was only one of 20 or so players that won the cup. Heck, even their back-up goalie has their name on the cup.

Let's take the captaincy of the Habs into question. The players voted on the captaincy, but who counted the votes? Was it the players,,,, or MT,,,, or MB? Ya,,, I know,,, grassy knoll all over again. Could the votes have been fudged? I wouldn't put it past either MB or MT.

Let's look at the "lies" we've been told about Carey's injuries and John Scott. Need I say more?

Bergevin fired his analytics guy after one year. Either he was incompetent, or Therrien didn't apply those stats to his "game plan". I'm inclined to believe the latter.

IMO,,, Therrien should be both the GM and coach, because MB bows to every whim that Therrien has, cuz in effect, that what Therrien is.


I "used" to be a fan of MB's for the first 2 years, but that has changed.

I "used" to have a wait and see attitude towards MT.

Well, I am fed-up. We will either go deep in the Pos, or MT gets fired, and MB as well, or I will have to find another team to support, after over 55+ years of support for this team.

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Ya know,,,,,,, ultimately Bergevin has to be held accountable for Therriens decisions.
He (MB) chose (in his opinion) the best coach available, and it went downhill from there.
He brought in Therrien who disliked PK on Antichambre, and brought his dislike for PK to the bench.
It started with MT's disapproval of the triple-low five, so that was gone. Then it was the benching, and calling out PK for coughing up the puck that led to a goal, when there were 4 other players who were on the ice at the same time, but MT singled PK out.
PK signed a lucrative contract (justifiably so), and before his NTC kicked in,,, he was gone.
MT also disliked Lars (for whatever reason), and eventually he was gone. IMO, Lars was a versatile forward who did everything he was asked to do, but apparently it wasn't enough for MT.
MB liked Shaw as he was a "winner" in Chicago. Well he was only one of 20 or so players that won the cup. Heck, even their back-up goalie has their name on the cup.
Let's take the captaincy of the Habs into question. The players voted on the captaincy, but who counted the votes? Was it the players,,,, or MT,,,, or MB? Ya,,, I know,,, grassy knoll all over again. Could the votes have been fudged? I wouldn't put it past either MB or MT.
Let's look at the "lies" we've been told about Carey's injuries and John Scott. Need I say more?
Bergevin fired his analytics guy after one year. Either he was incompetent, or Therrien didn't apply those stats to his "game plan". I'm inclined to believe the latter.
IMO,,, Therrien should be both the GM and coach, because MB bows to every whim that Therrien has, cuz in effect, that what Therrien is.
I "used" to be a fan of MB's for the first 2 years, but that has changed.
I "used" to have a wait and see attitude towards MT.
Well, I am fed-up. We will either go deep in the Pos, or MT gets fired, and MB as well, or I will have to find another team to support, after over 55+ years of support for this team.

I'm fed up as well Kinot, but I have learned to separate the current management (minus Muller of course) from the actual Habs. The sooner MT & MB get their walking papers, the better IMO.

If they happen to win the Cup this coming season though, it'll make it easier to bear.

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We limit ourselves by only allowing francophone coaches and GM's. Who really cares what language they speak as long as they take our habs to the top. It's time we get past this francophone crap and go with whats best for the team!

MB and MT must go, there is little doubt in my mind that MT will be gone 20 games into the season as I think this season is going to be a bust. He has proven already that he has lost his players trust.

Muller seriously needs a chance to coach this team

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Bergevin fired his analytics guy after one year. Either he was incompetent, or Therrien didn't apply those stats to his "game plan". I'm inclined to believe the latter.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2016/08/29/nhls-analytics-revolution-yet-to-take-hold.html

Matt Pfeffer sent packing in Montreal, apparently for disagreeing loudly about the https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2016/06/29/canadiens-trade-pk-subban-to-nashville-predators.html Shea Weber-for-P.K. Subban dealEND

Old-market Canadian teams have a traditional way of doing things. Whereas new market teams, like Florida and Nashville, are a little bit more open minded, not grounded in traditional thinking, but applying what we’ve learned from other sports and other businesses into hockey.”

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Not sure Pfeiffer created those stats as most here see tham and have mentioned them. Pretty sure Pfeiffer wasn't fired because the numbers showed PK was good. PK was going for the same reason other players with good stats have gone. Some times if you want to get quality you have to trade quality. They play different games so hard to compare,but we will soon see if it was a good idea.

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They play different games so hard to compare

That's not really the case, the comparison is pretty direct. P.K. Subban is the second best defenceman in the league, and when Shea Weber's on the ice his teams have markedly and severely less success. The Golden Mean Fallacy applies here; yes, there is quite a style difference between Subban and Weber, but they aren't equally effective "in their own way". In the NHL of today, Weber's game is simply inferior. Even if he plays at the top of his ability, he is less helpful to his team than Subban is at 85%. Weber's individual power play point production is an incredibly poor measure of his contribution to a team, so don't let's hear about that as if it's a magical one-number summation.

As well, I'll point out something that should be relatively obvious: We suffered massive injury problems last season, primarily to our best player, and had absolutely dreadful aggregated special teams. At the moment it appears everyone is healthy, and we've got a proven power play specialist joining the coaching staff. It will take remarkable effort for this team to equal—let alone lag behind—last year's performance. It would thus be the height of intellectual dishonesty to point to one season without Carey Price and one with and declare P.K. Subban was the real problem, and none should expect to get away with it.

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It is getting to the point here where folks are just repeating the same things over and over. personally I don't find there is any purpose to it. theory and stats are great tools but at the end of the day that is all they are, they don't play the game and while they may predict certain trends they are not that relevant unless the same parameters are there play after play. I know some see them as gospel I personally don't and I am getting sick of being told it is obvious or common sense as if I am a fool for not sharing the same views. I bet others feel the same,i still feel stats can tell you whatever you want them too you just have to interpret them in a way that is favorable to your argument. I agree 100% that PK has a higher skillset than Webber has no issue at all with that but to me that does not mean he was the player we need right now. stats can't tell you things like would a guy like Kreider still go into Carey skates first if he knew a guy like Webber was going to wreck him next time he was on the ice? pretty sure there is no stat for that, having played a fair bit of hockey myself I can assure you that is in your head when you are out there! it is one of many intangibles that Webber brings. according to the stats that you quote saying PK is the second best player in the world pretty much all of the hockey minds and players in the game must be idiots! because they don't seem to see him the same way. Babcock who many wanted to come here very badly hardly used him at all in the Olympics yet he used Webber? heck this year he is an assistant again. so if Babcock would have been our coach what would have happened if this trade was offered? one could argue the same thing and then who would have been the bad guy? there are so many layers to what is going on in a team that to sum it all up with just stats is in my opinion short sighted.

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stats can't tell you things like would a guy like Kreider still go into Carey skates first if he knew a guy like Webber was going to wreck him next time he was on the ice?

Matt Cooke threw that hit with impunity while knowing full well that Milan Lucic, Zdeno Chára, and Shawn Thornton were on the Bruins. If intimidation worked, "tough" teams would suffer fewer injuries. They don't. Intimidation in hockey may very well have existed before, but it doesn't now. If it did, there'd be some trace of evidence for it.

pretty much all of the hockey minds and players in the game must be idiots!

A good portion of them, yeah. I fail to find Appeal to Authority very... appealing.

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Old-market Canadian teams have a traditional way of doing things. Whereas new market teams, like Florida and Nashville, are a little bit more open minded, not grounded in traditional thinking, but applying what we’ve learned from other sports and other businesses into hockey.”

Not trying to be litigious here but:

Stanley cup winners:

2016 Pens (first expansion team in 1967)

2015 Chicago (original 6)

2014 LA (first expansion team in 1967)

2013 Chicago (original 6)

2012 LA(first expansion team in 1967)

2011 Boston (original 6)

2010 Chicago (original 6)

2009 Pittsburg (first expansion team in 1967)

2008 Detroit (original 6)

So thats 9 of the last 9 cup winners - all are either original 6 or first tier expansion (1967).. the "new market" teams have yet to win anything.

I do put some faith in the new analytics but probably not quite as much as some NHL Bloggers out there. Time will tell.

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Matt Cooke threw that hit with impunity while knowing full well that Milan Lucic, Zdeno Chára, and Shawn Thornton were on the Bruins. If intimidation worked, "tough" teams would suffer fewer injuries. They don't. Intimidation in hockey may very well have existed before, but it doesn't now. If it did, there'd be some trace of evidence for it.

A good portion of them, yeah. I fail to find Appeal to Authority very... appealing.

Nice cherry pick.

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Nice cherry pick.

Matt Cooke against the 201-11 Rangers with Derek Boogard, Daniel Girardi, Brian McCabe, and Brandon Prust.

Radko Gudas against the 2015-16 Ottawa Senators with Mark Borowiecki, Chris Neil, and Marc Methot.

I could be here all night. "Tough players deter dirty plays against their team" is an unfalsifiable assertion which begets rapidly moving goalposts.

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yes, keep going cherry pick one part of the post to your advantage. well done. the point i was looking to make was that Webber brings a different element to the team. such yes as you pointed out toughness but also a hard and acurate shot a strong calming influence in a dressing room a big body that can clear the front of the net with ease and the respect of pretty much all the players in the nhl. as great as PK is and no matter what the stats say he does not bring those elements which may or may not be what the team needs right now. time and games will tell. who is right not anything that has happened in the past because each player is on a new team with new teamates and coaches.

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a strong calming influence in a dressing room

a big body that can clear the front of the net with ease

the respect of pretty much all the players in the nhl.

I'm legitimately interested in figuring out exactly what these things are, so they could potentially be quantified. Can you define what they are and why you consider them valuable?

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yes, keep going cherry pick one part of the post to your advantage. well done. the point i was looking to make was that Webber brings a different element to the team. such yes as you pointed out toughness but also a hard and acurate shot a strong calming influence in a dressing room a big body that can clear the front of the net with ease and the respect of pretty much all the players in the nhl. as great as PK is and no matter what the stats say he does not bring those elements which may or may not be what the team needs right now. time and games will tell. who is right not anything that has happened in the past because each player is on a new team with new teamates and coaches.

I'm legitimately interested in figuring out exactly what these things are, so they could potentially be quantified. Can you define what they are and why you consider them valuable?

Ramcharger, let me start by saying that my intent isn't to belittle your opinion or try to make it feel like we're teaming up on you by any means. I completely get that some fans and many hockey people like the idea of size and grit and character and that's all well and good. You're absolutely correct that these things CAN be valuable. But these are also things that are very difficult to measure, both as absolute quantities and in terms of the impact they have on winning. In general, skill tends to have a more profound effect.

If we look at things like toughness, a calming effect in the room, a big body who can clear the net, and a well-respected player, all of those things describe Hal Gill as much as they describe Shea Weber. So if those are the reasons to acquire Weber, then why not sign Hal Gill for 700k instead of Weber for 8M? Weber is the better player and he's paid a lot more because of his skill, not because of those other things. He's paid because of his shot and goal scoring, he's paid because of his hitting ability, he's paid because of his hockey sense. But his skill is inferior to that of PK Subban, in most but not all measurable categories.

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