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habs_93
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oh i agree things are far from perfect and most folks are taking it slow but over the last four years we have been a strong team except for last season once the multiple injuries piled up we crashed. one could argue even a decent nhl quality goalie may have limped us into the playoffs but we will never know. my point is in roughly four seasons of play we have been a points contender with quite good regular seasons. we have some solid new faces on the team this year that may take us a bit farther in the post season and rumours persist that more changes are potentially coming which could help. all in all it is more than respectable.

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38 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

 all in all it is more than respectable.

Right but is that the goal? 

 

Imho the only team goal, each and every year, is the Stanley Cup.   I live in 'canucks country" and despite having some amazing players and some amazing seasons in their long history they have always failed to win the big prize. people dont care if you win the president's trophy or make it to the 3rd round. 


The goal has to be to win the cup & if thats the case, we have some work to do - mostly to do with system/line assignments and matchups.   All of the components are there, imho. We just need to use them better. 

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I too can understand people's concerns. I share some of them myself. It's great that we've gotten off to this awesome start. I don't see us crashing like we did last year but it's human nature to be weary after last years collapse. To date i don't think we've played one complete game. Sporadic spurts of good play seem to be the best we've been able to muster so far. Last season's early run wasn't just led by goaltending. Eventually that was our downfall, among other things, but we did manage to play some complete games where we were running on all cylinders prior to our injury woes.

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if we could see a couple of those full team efforts over a complete 60 minutes (or close to it). I can't seem to let go of that little voice in the back of my head that keeps telling me this is unsustainable. I' m not naive enough to expect us to maintain this points pace all season. I fully expect us to lose games. I just keep getting this eerie feeling that some of those losses are going to be nasty.

I do have to give MT a little credit so far though. His line matches haven't been as outrageous as some of the combinations he threw at us last year,,, and the PP is at least respectable so far,,,,although we probably should throw some credit to assistants in that department. Is he doing enough to silence all his critics?? Unlikely. I think that boat has sailed and short of winning a Cup,,,he'll always be in the doghouse here.

 

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1 hour ago, H_T_L said:

I do have to give MT a little credit so far though. His line matches haven't been as outrageous as some of the combinations he threw at us last year,,, and the PP is at least respectable so far,,,,although we probably should throw some credit to assistants in that department. Is he doing enough to silence all his critics?? Unlikely. I think that boat has sailed and short of winning a Cup,,,he'll always be in the doghouse here.

Dont you think the bold part has more to do with the roster now though?  I mean however you assemble Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Pacioretty, Radulov, Plekanec and Lehkonen you're going to have a pretty great couple of lines.   He's somehow managed to move a couple of those guys around (while promoting Byron etc) so even that is a bit baffling.

This year we can put a guy like Pacioretty on the third line (with DD) and not suffer too much because of our GGR line.  

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7 hours ago, tony5775 said:

After this terrible start we should get rid of the guy immediately.  Too funny. No losses in ten games (in regulation), no matter how it happened that's pretty amazing.

Price is a part of the team and a lot of people lost jobs waiting for him to get to this point. So its about time he started to deliver. 

No one played well in a couple of games and Price won them good for him. Good for me. 

If nothing else MT has been wearing some great suits. Sure Cherry would be happy about that.

Sure, Price is part of the team. But Therrien's game plan is for the most part "let the other team shoot, Price will stop it." And that's been his game plan for the past 3-4 years. So tell me, what is it about Therrien that makes him an asset to this team? What is he doing that Muller or Gallant or any host of other potential coaches couldn't do better? I'm honestly interested to know what it is that Therrien does so well that makes him the best choice for being our coach?

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Right but is that the goal? 

 

Imho the only team goal, each and every year, is the Stanley Cup.   I live in 'canucks country" and despite having some amazing players and some amazing seasons in their long history they have always failed to win the big prize. people dont care if you win the president's trophy or make it to the 3rd round. 


The goal has to be to win the cup & if thats the case, we have some work to do - mostly to do with system/line assignments and matchups.   All of the components are there, imho. We just need to use them better. 

Precisely the point. If that goal fails this year there should be a good housecleaning starting with coach MT, followed by dead weights Pacioretty, DD & Plekanec.

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20 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Precisely the point. If that goal fails this year there should be a good housecleaning starting with coach MT, followed by dead weights Pacioretty, DD & Plekanec.

But what if we get past the 2nd rd,,, or even get to the SCF? Would that be a failure? 

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

Dont you think the bold part has more to do with the roster now though?  I mean however you assemble Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Pacioretty, Radulov, Plekanec and Lehkonen you're going to have a pretty great couple of lines.   He's somehow managed to move a couple of those guys around (while promoting Byron etc) so even that is a bit baffling.

This year we can put a guy like Pacioretty on the third line (with DD) and not suffer too much because of our GGR line.  

Likely does, but at least it hasn't taken a ton of injuries to leave Chucky on that #1 line. It was like pulling teeth last year getting that kid some decent ice time.

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48 minutes ago, kinot1 said:

But what if we get past the 2nd rd,,, or even get to the SCF? Would that be a failure? 

At a certain point it has to get into "fool me once, fool me twice" territory. We've seen more than enough illusory success under Therrien, and we know exactly what we're going to get over large samples. It isn't good at all. Every second we keep him in the organization, our chances of doing anything with this core get more and more remote.

For a team with a 29 year old Carey Price, this is what failure looks like: not being in a position to be a legitimate league power during his prime years. So yes, I'd fire Therrien without hesitation. Nothing about this fraudulent start makes me reconsider in the least, and small sample fluctuations in the playoffs certainly wouldn't sway me. Particularly because this and next year are basically our window now. Like the Weber trade? Dislike it? No matter. EIther way: this is it. We win now, or it's all regrets. Every single move has to be designed to win the Cup now—right now—or it's a mistake. In playoff position in the second week of December? Fire him and get anyone else. All-Star break? Trade Deadline? Day before Game 1? Michel Therrien can put Carey Price's name on the lineup card, and is close to the bottom in the league's coaches at everything else. I still can't believe this farce has gone on so long that Marc Bergevin has all but totally overhauled the team to better suit this mediocre dinosaur.

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35 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

If we play Therrien-style hockey and lose because of that, then yes, MT should be fired.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

At a certain point it has to get into "fool me once, fool me twice" territory. We've seen more than enough illusory success under Therrien, and we know exactly what we're going to get over large samples. It isn't good at all. Every second we keep him in the organization, our chances of doing anything with this core get more and more remote.

For a team with a 29 year old Carey Price, this is what failure looks like: not being in a position to be a legitimate league power during his prime years. So yes, I'd fire Therrien without hesitation. Nothing about this fraudulent start makes me reconsider in the least, and small sample fluctuations in the playoffs certainly wouldn't sway me. Particularly because this and next year are basically our window now. Like the Weber trade? Dislike it? No matter. EIther way: this is it. We win now, or it's all regrets. Every single move has to be designed to win the Cup now—right now—or it's a mistake. In playoff position in the second week of December? Fire him and get anyone else. All-Star break? Trade Deadline? Day before Game 1? Michel Therrien can put Carey Price's name on the lineup card, and is close to the bottom in the league's coaches at everything else. I still can't believe this farce has gone on so long that Marc Bergevin has all but totally overhauled the team to better suit this mediocre dinosaur.

But you both know, that "if" we went deep into the POs, MB would say that this year was a success, and wouldn't fire, MT. Geoff would have to fire them both. 

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Just now, kinot1 said:

But you both know, that "if" we went deep into the POs, MB would say that this year was a success, and wouldn't fire, MT. Geoff would have to fire them both. 

Oh, I'm well aware that Bergevin is divorced from reality, I'm just trying to approach this in good faith.

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2 hours ago, habs_93 said:

Oh, I'm well aware that Bergevin is divorced from reality, I'm just trying to approach this in good faith.

 

36 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Yes absolutely.

Believe me, I would love to see MT (and to a lesser extent, but not by much, MB)  gone, but I don't see any way out of this management mess, except for Geoff firing both of them, and hiring the "best GM and coach available". For sure that inept "coach" in SJ's, he should have been gone 3 years ago. 

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33 minutes ago, kinot-1 said:

 

Believe me, I would love to see MT (and to a lesser extent, but not by much, MB)  gone, but I don't see any way out of this management mess, except for Geoff firing both of them, and hiring the "best GM and coach available". For sure that inept "coach" in SJ's, he should have been gone 3 years ago. 

Bottom line is we are way past due. The Cup is OURS and it better be served to us on a platter this season! :wut2:

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I love how easy it is to armchair coach a team with pretty much none of the inside information. just like stats we can interpret what we see the way we want. bottom line on this coach is that in all the years he has been coach in MTL he is .571, 249 wins to 179 losses including his first stint when the team was really really sad. not may teams would turn a coach like that down.

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16 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I love how easy it is to armchair coach a team with pretty much none of the inside information. just like stats we can interpret what we see the way we want. bottom line on this coach is that in all the years he has been coach in MTL he is .571, 249 wins to 179 losses including his first stint when the team was really really sad. not may teams would turn a coach like that down.

Again, find me a coach who has Carey Price post a .935 to .960 Sv% and can't win 57% of the games. When he didn't have Carey Price last year, Therrien posted the worst winning percentage in the league. The team's record has been good with Carey in goal and abysmal without him, and that just proves that Therrien is contributing little to the success of the team. Just look at the things Therrien can have an affect on: breakout, possession, line combos, ice time allocation, special teams and set plays... all of those things have been jokes, with the PP having picked up a bit since Muller took over. I fully agree with you that it's easier to be an armchair GM/coach and sit here and complain about things and I'm by no means saying I can do a better job, but there are so many things Therrien has been subpar at without any improvement over the past few years. You look at other coaches who had terrible possession numbers but had winning seasons that just didn't mesh with how they were playing: Hartley in Calgary, Roy in Colorado, Carlyle in Toronto... those coaches all had decent stretches and got recognition with awards and from the media for what they did, even though advanced stats predicted the team success was a mirage and wasn't sustainable. All of those teams crashed, and all of those coaches were fired, except Therrien, who was pardoned because of Price's injury. But Therrien has stuck with his old adage that grit is what will see you through, despite the fact the numbers (and last season) convincingly show Therrien's system is nothing without the number one goalie in the world. So yes, there is enough evidence without having inside information to know that Therrien is not an asset to this club.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

I love how easy it is to armchair coach a team with pretty much none of the inside information. just like stats we can interpret what we see the way we want. bottom line on this coach is that in all the years he has been coach in MTL he is .571, 249 wins to 179 losses including his first stint when the team was really really sad. not may teams would turn a coach like that down.

 

 And further to Ted's reply I would add,,, I don't see the problem that some of us have with arm chair coaches/GMs? We are after all a discussion board, and if a member wishes to express an opinion one way or the other, and also choose to back it up with stats, then all the power to them. Introducing stats are in themselves interpretive in an argument so they're not definitive in all cases, however they do add fuel to the discussion. For example, you yourself introduce MT's record and present it as "bottom line", but is it really???What that record fails to show is how those wins were attained. Did he have a healthy lineup and if not, then what affect did missing certain players have on that record? You see,,, it's not all black and white  Why get all bent out of shape because somebody has an opposite viewpoint?

If we all shared the same thought process this board would be an awful boring social outlet.

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38 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

 And further to Ted's reply I would add,,, I don't see the problem that some of us have with arm chair coaches/GMs? We are after all a discussion board, and if a member wishes to express an opinion one way or the other, and also choose to back it up with stats, then all the power to them. Introducing stats are in themselves interpretive in an argument so they're not definitive in all cases, however they do add fuel to the discussion.For example, you yourself introduce MT's record and present it as "bottom line", but is it really???What that record fails to show is how those wins were attained. Did he have a healthy lineup and if not, then what affect did missing certain players have on that record? You see,,, it's not all black and white  Why get all bent out of shape because somebody has an opposite viewpoint?

If we all shared the same thought process this board would be an awful boring social outlet.

Well said HTL.

We are all armchair coaches/critics to varying degrees, but that is part of the point in participating in these forums, and that's what makes it fun, because we are the fans who want our team to improve and win! We may all have different opinions as to how to get there but the bottom line is we love and support our Habs.

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2 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I love how easy it is to armchair coach a team with pretty much none of the inside information. just like stats we can interpret what we see the way we want. bottom line on this coach is that in all the years he has been coach in MTL he is .571, 249 wins to 179 losses including his first stint when the team was really really sad. not may teams would turn a coach like that down.

 

1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Again, find me a coach who has Carey Price post a .935 to .960 Sv% and can't win 57% of the games. When he didn't have Carey Price last year, Therrien posted the worst winning percentage in the league. The team's record has been good with Carey in goal and abysmal without him, and that just proves that Therrien is contributing little to the success of the team. Just look at the things Therrien can have an affect on: breakout, possession, line combos, ice time allocation, special teams and set plays... all of those things have been jokes, with the PP having picked up a bit since Muller took over. I fully agree with you that it's easier to be an armchair GM/coach and sit here and complain about things and I'm by no means saying I can do a better job, but there are so many things Therrien has been subpar at without any improvement over the past few years. You look at other coaches who had terrible possession numbers but had winning seasons that just didn't mesh with how they were playing: Hartley in Calgary, Roy in Colorado, Carlyle in Toronto... those coaches all had decent stretches and got recognition with awards and from the media for what they did, even though advanced stats predicted the team success was a mirage and wasn't sustainable. All of those teams crashed, and all of those coaches were fired, except Therrien, who was pardoned because of Price's injury. But Therrien has stuck with his old adage that grit is what will see you through, despite the fact the numbers (and last season) convincingly show Therrien's system is nothing without the number one goalie in the world. So yes, there is enough evidence without having inside information to know that Therrien is not an asset to this club.

Ted's answer is spot on and I would also add:  We could have a 99% winning record in the regular season under MT and it would still be a failure because we've won exactly zero cups under him. That is the goal. Its always been the goal, it always will be the goal. 


Sure you remember thrilling comebacks from regular season games and individual successes like 50 goal seasons but ultimately the only thing we consistently remember when it comes right down to it is cups.  We havent won one under Therrien and to be honest, we havent even been close to winning one. 

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I love it! raw nerves and all it is going to be a fun year. same folks same arguments oh yeah we set another new record for the team with that last win. just as much as we sucked last year we are doing great this year and my fearless prediction is we will have a great year. I will even predict a good long run in the playoffs barring injuries of course. and this whole premise that it is all a failure if you don't win a cup is just silly to me, for sure it is the ultimate goal but there are 30 other teams that want it too probably 10 or so that could win it every year if all falls into place for them but only one will. could it be us who knows? it blows me away the amount of negative backlash the coach gets, I don't agree with much that he does but I can't close my eyes to the results. and lets be real folks he did not always have #31` as a goalie he has won elsewhere and in other leagues and even here before #31 on a much worse team and I remember very well Pittsburgh was going nowhere till he got there who knows if he would have won a cup there he never got to finish what he started. truth be told I would have rather we hired Babcock when we could have as i think he is a better coach but MT is not an idiot he has the record to prove it.

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12 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

I love it! raw nerves and all it is going to be a fun year. same folks same arguments oh yeah we set another new record for the team with that last win. just as much as we sucked last year we are doing great this year and my fearless prediction is we will have a great year. I will even predict a good long run in the playoffs barring injuries of course. and this whole premise that it is all a failure if you don't win a cup is just silly to me, for sure it is the ultimate goal but there are 30 other teams that want it too probably 10 or so that could win it every year if all falls into place for them but only one will. could it be us who knows? it blows me away the amount of negative backlash the coach gets, I don't agree with much that he does but I can't close my eyes to the results. and lets be real folks he did not always have #31` as a goalie he has won elsewhere and in other leagues and even here before #31 on a much worse team and I remember very well Pittsburgh was going nowhere till he got there who knows if he would have won a cup there he never got to finish what he started. truth be told I would have rather we hired Babcock when we could have as i think he is a better coach but MT is not an idiot he has the record to prove it.

The bolded is a fair statement to make, and that does occur regularly in here however, it is a pretty inclusive observation.

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Teams are not remembered for making it to the playoffs, rather they are remembered and honored for winning the Stanley Cup.

The Habs have set the standard for excellence by proudly having 24 cups to back them up, plus the many banners representing this excellence hanging from the rafters and into our opponents' faces when they come to play us. When playing against us, other teams step it up a few notches because they know that winning against the Habs is a reminder that should you be able to beat us, you can achieve the ultimate goal. That is why we must set our expectations solely to winning the Stanley Cup, rather than merely making it to the playoffs IMO.

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2 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I love it! raw nerves and all it is going to be a fun year. same folks same arguments oh yeah we set another new record for the team with that last win. just as much as we sucked last year we are doing great this year and my fearless prediction is we will have a great year. I will even predict a good long run in the playoffs barring injuries of course. and this whole premise that it is all a failure if you don't win a cup is just silly to me, for sure it is the ultimate goal but there are 30 other teams that want it too probably 10 or so that could win it every year if all falls into place for them but only one will. could it be us who knows? it blows me away the amount of negative backlash the coach gets, I don't agree with much that he does but I can't close my eyes to the results. and lets be real folks he did not always have #31` as a goalie he has won elsewhere and in other leagues and even here before #31 on a much worse team and I remember very well Pittsburgh was going nowhere till he got there who knows if he would have won a cup there he never got to finish what he started. truth be told I would have rather we hired Babcock when we could have as i think he is a better coach but MT is not an idiot he has the record to prove it.

I agree with the above post. Winning is the end result and the most important stat. Last year it was more than just Price being out we had several other key injuries. As well as Condon started out doing at the end the HABS had the worst goals against in the league. You hear it all the time show me a good goalie and I'll show you a good coach. MB should of went out and got a better secondary goalie earlier. With the worst save percentage even Babcock would of had a hard time winning. I like Babcock but I will also say as much as a lot of fans wanted him, he had a similar views on Subban so we probably would of ended up with the same trade influenced by the coach. However you look at it I'm hoping we win the CUP now with the current coach. I just want the CUP!

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In my view, winning Cups trumps all else, but I agree that you can't write off regular season success or personal records altogether. A coach can be a great coach and never win a Cup. A player can be an all-time great and never win a championship either. In this case, I'm not saying Therrien has to win a Cup to justify himself; I'm saying he has to show he can coach better. He has to show that his winning record is more than just Carey Price propelling him to wins. Right now, we have the following evidence:

- Therrien 2 years ago had a winning record, but analysis done by stats pundits showed that if we had replaced Price with Bishop or Quick or another league-average starter (i.e. the 15th best starter in the league that season), we would not have made the playoffs.

- Therrien last year after the Price injury had the worst record in the NHL. Worse than Toronto, worse than Columbus, worse than Buffalo, worse than Calgary.

- Stats this year show that with league average-goaltending, the Canadiens would be playing around or just over .500 hockey and probably wouldn't be in line to make the playoffs again.

I and other have shown numbers to support the fact that Therrien is NOT having any type of beneficial impact on the Habs. The numbers suggest this team wins because of Price, not because of anything else. I am still waiting for any evidence to support what role Therrien has played in being a reason why we're winning. What is he doing that Muller, Gallant, Robinson, Guy Boucher, Bob Hartley, or someone else couldn't do? Put any coach in here, good or bad, and they're going to have some amount of success just because Price/Montoya are putting up .930 to .960 save percentages and sub-2.00 GAA's.

If we look back at Therrien's first stint here, yes his roster was not as good, but he had a losing record in 2 of 3 years. In Pittsburgh, he had a losing record in his first year despite having Crosby and Malkin and in his final season, once he was replaced, the team immediately improved in terms of record and also possession statistics, despite the fact Bylsma had pretty much the same roster. Bylsma is by no means a terrific head coach, but he was still miles ahead of Therrien with the same team. So why can't we make a similar change and have a better coach take a good roster to the next level?

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