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32 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

In my view, winning Cups trumps all else, but I agree that you can't write off regular season success or personal records altogether. A coach can be a great coach and never win a Cup. A player can be an all-time great and never win a championship either. In this case, I'm not saying Therrien has to win a Cup to justify himself; I'm saying he has to show he can coach better. He has to show that his winning record is more than just Carey Price propelling him to wins. Right now, we have the following evidence:

- Therrien 2 years ago had a winning record, but analysis done by stats pundits showed that if we had replaced Price with Bishop or Quick or another league-average starter (i.e. the 15th best starter in the league that season), we would not have made the playoffs.

- Therrien last year after the Price injury had the worst record in the NHL. Worse than Toronto, worse than Columbus, worse than Buffalo, worse than Calgary.

- Stats this year show that with league average-goaltending, the Canadiens would be playing around or just over .500 hockey and probably wouldn't be in line to make the playoffs again.

I and other have shown numbers to support the fact that Therrien is NOT having any type of beneficial impact on the Habs. The numbers suggest this team wins because of Price, not because of anything else. I am still waiting for any evidence to support what role Therrien has played in being a reason why we're winning. What is he doing that Muller, Gallant, Robinson, Guy Boucher, Bob Hartley, or someone else couldn't do? Put any coach in here, good or bad, and they're going to have some amount of success just because Price/Montoya are putting up .930 to .960 save percentages and sub-2.00 GAA's.

If we look back at Therrien's first stint here, yes his roster was not as good, but he had a losing record in 2 of 3 years. In Pittsburgh, he had a losing record in his first year despite having Crosby and Malkin and in his final season, once he was replaced, the team immediately improved in terms of record and also possession statistics, despite the fact Bylsma had pretty much the same roster. Bylsma is by no means a terrific head coach, but he was still miles ahead of Therrien with the same team. So why can't we make a similar change and have a better coach take a good roster to the next level?

how much better do you honestly think this roster would do as is with another coach? how much more could it win? will a new coach make the players bigger and taller? will a better coach make Patches a better goal scorer or Markov younger? i like our team but at the end of the day i don't have any illusions about just how good we are! if we finish near the top of the league and do a couple of rounds that is ok because that is realistically how good we probably are. we have some awesome players in Price Webber Galchenyuk and company but we are also small, we need a #2 dman, Pleks should be on the third line full time and we need a proven man sized gifted #2 center. who can pass and score. if we had that and did not get at least a sniff at the cup i would find all of the negativity justified. 

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7 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

how much better do you honestly think this roster would do as is with another coach? how much more could it win? will a new coach make the players bigger and taller? will a better coach make Patches a better goal scorer or Markov younger? i like our team but at the end of the day i don't have any illusions about just how good we are! if we finish near the top of the league and do a couple of rounds that is ok because that is realistically how good we probably are. we have some awesome players in Price Webber Galchenyuk and company but we are also small, we need a #2 dman, Pleks should be on the third line full time and we need a proven man sized gifted #2 center. who can pass and score. if we had that and did not get at least a sniff at the cup i would find all of the negativity justified. 

a new coach would make logical decisions, such as playing your better players together and more often, and base those decisions on actual tangible merit, rather than whose haircut I dont like.

in other words, another coach wouldn't do things like having  shaw and desharnais on your first pp unit, and plek and patch playing more than chuck and radulov. 

im not shy to say I dont like the players we have very much and I don't think this team goes very far under anybody, but coach T plays favourites, loves plugs over skill guys, makes horrible line combos and does not know how to deploy his best players in effective ways, these are things you can actually prove with facts. So based on THAT fact, its reasonable to say someone who simply doesnt do these things would get better results

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19 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

how much better do you honestly think this roster would do as is with another coach? how much more could it win? will a new coach make the players bigger and taller? will a better coach make Patches a better goal scorer or Markov younger? i like our team but at the end of the day i don't have any illusions about just how good we are! if we finish near the top of the league and do a couple of rounds that is ok because that is realistically how good we probably are. we have some awesome players in Price Webber Galchenyuk and company but we are also small, we need a #2 dman, Pleks should be on the third line full time and we need a proven man sized gifted #2 center. who can pass and score. if we had that and did not get at least a sniff at the cup i would find all of the negativity justified. 

But the thing is that every team has deficiencies. I 100% agree with you that we have several players who are less than ideal for the roles they fill (Plekanec, Markov, Desharnais, Emelin, Byron), but we also have some very good players. There are teams and coaches who would die to have Price, Weber, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Gallagher, and Petry, for example. But you look at teams like Chicago and they've won Cups with top-heavy talent like Toews, Kane, and Hossa, but they've also filled in the bottom of their rosters with role-plaing journeymen and young guys that they've developed properly in their own system. Look at Tampa, who have a lot of small quick forwards but again haven't had much on their bottom two lines for the past few years and were able to forge through the playoffs despite losing Stamkos AND Bishop and going with a young goalie with no experience. Look at the role players that Pittsburgh filled in behind Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. Look at how they got it done with rookie Matt Murray in goal. Look at San Jose making the finals with new starter Martin Jones. Never mind looking at the holes that teams like Vancouver and Toronto and Columbus and Carolina and New Jersey and so on have.

The point is that every team has holes on their rosters. No team is going to have elite or star players at every roster spot, the way Team Canada does. It's just not realistic. So while I definitely see room for improvement with the roster, I look at it and think it should be as competitive as any other roster in the league. Therrien may not be able to make Pacioretty or Gallagher score more, but he could certainly have done a better job using Galchenyuk more prolifically than he did over the past few years. Why the need to continue to use Desharnais on the first wave of the PP, even now? He could have done more to use young guys like Lehkonen, McCarron, Hudon, Andirghetto, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, or so on instead of filling in veteran pluggers like Flynn, Murray, Bouillon, Moen, Parros, Brown, and the like. How can we sit here and complain that our roster doesn't have enough talent when we continue to play unskilled veterans with no future here at the expense of developing younger skill guys? Maybe Beaulieu would be a #2 defenceman here if he hadn't spent so much time toiling in the minors and sitting in the pressbox while Douglass Murray showed us how bad he was at hockey. Maybe McCarron or Hudon could be a useful top 9 player instead of having to use Byron or Desharnais or Flynn or so on in the line-up.

Obviously, no coach would have a better record thus far than we have already, but my question is whether Therrien can turn a good 10-game stretch into a full season of success? We've started strong in just about every year he's been here, yet every year, we go through a 6-8 week slump in December and January then limp through the end of the season because Therrien has over-used veterans like Plekanec and and Emelin and Markov and even Price. If MT wasn't so anti-youngster and so anti-skill, we'd be in a much better position and much better set-up to make a run through the playoffs. As I've said before, if Therrien can win a Cup, then it doesn't really matter how he got there, I will give him credit for getting the job done. But anything short of that leaves room to question whether another coach or another strategy could have gotten us further. So while our start is commendable, we continue to have issues with the way we've played, we continue to have a very high PDO (suggesting luck and non-sustainability), and that begs a lot of questions as to whether we are really as good as our record shows or whether we will come crashing back to earth, as we have in the past.

 

 

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we have had one losing season and lets face it last year started of with some makeshift signatures and some bad luck for a couple of players then we went on the streak and then we had a ton of injuries but the other years were quite good more or less at or above our talent level. when you look at the results they are good perhaps one could argue the way we got to them was odd but we still got there. if we go downhill from here i will be right there on board calling for a new coach as we have 2-4 years to get this thing done, if we can keep our key players. at least i see a logical replacement in house already in Muller. 

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2 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

how much better do you honestly think this roster would do as is with another coach? how much more could it win? . 

Not expecting them to win more games with a new coach but maybe win in a better fashion , if that makes any sense .

Relying on your goalie(s) to play " out of this world " in order for the team to have a chance to win doesn't seem, to me , to be a very good way to structure your tea,

2 yrs ago , CP won every individual award he possibly could then got hurt in the PO's

Last yr the team started off great and CP got hut , without him the team stuck

This yr off to another great start , but the last 2 games the team was outplayed by 2 bottom feeders .

I dont' buy the argument , that CP is part of the team, so who cares if they have to rely on him to win games . That reasoning falls apart when CP gets injured ( see last year )

 

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Therrien said in his presser that he "saw this loss coming like a giant curveball in baseball... he could see it and had time to see it but just couldn't stop his swing." He added that he could see a game like this coming "because of how badly the team has played recently."

 

So, two interesting observations here:

1. Therrien seems to agree that the team's record doesn't tell the whole story and that the team as a whole has been bad of late (wonder if Bergevin has taken note of that too).

2. Therrien admitted he felt helpless and couldn't do anything to turn the team around (now isn't that a coach's job to figure out how to make a team playing badly turn things around to play better, not just allow a bad loss to happen when he knew it was coming).

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Get a new coach

Should have let him go last year

Other teams let their coaches go for less of a gong show , And Im not saying this because of the 10 -0 wipeout . This has been going on since last year .

I just think his time here has run its course

 

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8 hours ago, habby67 said:

I am no expert but if you are going to sit Price regardless of the score then why not bring Lindgren up in situations like this? At least after 4 or 5 goals you can pull Montoya instead of pulling that stunt!

My feeling exactly. If the plan was to rest Price regardless, then they should have left him in Montreal and called up the kid. We had roster room to do it.

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FWIW, I agree with what Therrien did. As bad as it is for Montoya, he's a grown man and the best move FOR THE TEAM was to rest Price for tonight and not throw him into a game where he's not warmed up and at risk of pulling a muscle in his leg again. I understand the alternative point of view and I find it odd that Price warmed up twice despite Therrien saying everyone was clear he wasn't going to go in. Here's Eklund (of all people) with the arguments for that side of things:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Michel-Therrien-Cant-Coach-With-Any-Adversity--Throws-Montoya-Under-Bus/1/80455

That said, Therrien might come out looking like the bad guy, but it's his job to make the best decisions for the team and he did that in this case. Sure, we can argue they could have called up Lindgren, but what does that say about Therrien's confidence in Montoya that he's planning on his having such a bad night. And what does that do for Lindgren to interrupt his play in the AHL on a whim that Montoya might let in 6, 8, or 10 goals. Montoya was as much a part of the miserable performance as his teammates, we weren't coming back down by 4 or 5 goals or more, and we needed to protect the franchise goalie.

On another note on this subject, apparently the folks at RDS are a little miffed at Therrien for his condescension towards the media. Luc Gelinas asked Therrien after the game why Price was warming up and if he had asked to come into the game. Therrien gave him a look of disgust, said "no" and turned away. Some media members reporting afterwards that Therrien has been increasingly rude over the past year and as he said himself, doesn't like being "second-guessed" or questioned.

 

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54 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

FWIW, I agree with what Therrien did. As bad as it is for Montoya, he's a grown man and the best move FOR THE TEAM was to rest Price for tonight and not throw him into a game where he's not warmed up and at risk of pulling a muscle in his leg again.

 

 

My understanding is Price didn't even take the pre-game warmup so if Montoya at any time had been injured Price would be called upon cold. Price should have stayed in Montreal.

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3 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

That said, Therrien might come out looking like the bad guy, but it's his job to make the best decisions for the team and he did that in this case. Sure, we can argue they could have called up Lindgren, but what does that say about Therrien's confidence in Montoya that he's planning on his having such a bad night..

 

And if Montoya got in jured

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2 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

A belated observation...

Habs lose 10-1... apparently on Michel Therrien's birthday... were the players out partying too much the night before... or what??? Was this a message from the players for their coach to ponder?

I think the 10-0 loss was just a 10-0 loss. I don't think it had anything to do with Therrien's birthday nor players partying nor a message being sent. I think the team just got out-played because the system is bad and the defensive zone coverage was near-invisible; they let up some early goals, they took bad penalties that made the hole deeper, and no one had the ability to stop the bleeding. It just kind of spiraled out of control. I highly doubt it will happen again for a long time, but it's one of those things where when you play a bad system for a long time, eventually you'll hit a night where everything bad that can happen will happen.

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Habs need a coach , like Babcock, who addresses the ,media like this

https://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/2016/11/08/baby-leafs-no-match-for-all-the-kings-men-feschuk.html

They were competitive and we weren’t. I take responsibility for that,” Babcock said. “We didn’t win any battles. We didn’t play heavy. We didn’t finish any checks. We didn’t win any races.”

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Michel Therrien is doing a wonderful job leading this team. The record of 12-1-1 proves this. The rest of you "fans" don't recognize a champion when you see one. Price doesn't have to stand on his head anymore. He's not even first star in every game. Therrien is doing a great job and is in fact the best coach in the league. You have to give credit where credit is due and he gets no credit from vocal "habs fans" who know everything but results. The team is doing an excellent job and Michel Therrien is part of the team. Leading it the way he should. You guys still upset over Subban or something? A me, myself and I attitude on the ice like Subban's was no good for team. The cancer is gone. Off the ice he tries to show off his cash and look better than the rest of the team by donating to hospitals and raising his rep. For Subban it's all about him and the Superstar life and the reason why Therrien failed last year was because Subban has a zero team mentality on and off ice. He didn't even want to play Defense all that much just skate around and look good doing risky passes and flashy spins. To Subban it was all about the show and himself. We don't need that. Therrien is the scapegoat far too often and I'm telling all of you "fans" right now Michel Therrien is champion and with the right players that he now has. He is winning and he will continue to win as long Bergevin can continue to improve the team by getting great players and filling injury holes and exterminating locker room and on ice cancers. It's not about the Coach or Price or one individual. It's a TEAM effort. Right now everybody is doing an excellent job Therrien included.

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4 hours ago, Ericwhat said:

Michel Therrien is doing a wonderful job leading this team. The record of 12-1-1 proves this. The rest of you "fans" don't recognize a champion when you see one. Price doesn't have to stand on his head anymore. He's not even first star in every game. Therrien is doing a great job and is in fact the best coach in the league. You have to give credit where credit is due and he gets no credit from vocal "habs fans" who know everything but results. The team is doing an excellent job and Michel Therrien is part of the team. Leading it the way he should. You guys still upset over Subban or something? A me, myself and I attitude on the ice like Subban's was no good for team. The cancer is gone. Off the ice he tries to show off his cash and look better than the rest of the team by donating to hospitals and raising his rep. For Subban it's all about him and the Superstar life and the reason why Therrien failed last year was because Subban has a zero team mentality on and off ice. He didn't even want to play Defense all that much just skate around and look good doing risky passes and flashy spins. To Subban it was all about the show and himself. We don't need that. Therrien is the scapegoat far too often and I'm telling all of you "fans" right now Michel Therrien is champion and with the right players that he now has. He is winning and he will continue to win as long Bergevin can continue to improve the team by getting great players and filling injury holes and exterminating locker room and on ice cancers. It's not about the Coach or Price or one individual. It's a TEAM effort. Right now everybody is doing an excellent job Therrien included.

Well this opens up a whole can of worms! Welcome to the forum, Eric. I'm going to offer a few counterpoints to what you just posted:

- The team has a great record. They've had great starts to seasons under Therrien before too. The problem is that they can't sustain that. The team falters into December and January every year, and Therrien overplaying veteran players like Markov, Plekanec, Emelin, and Price has led us to be run into the ground as we get into important games down the stretch. He's managed the bench a little better this season, but let's see how we do for an entire season before crowning Michel Therrien a "champion." He hasn't won anything at the NHL level yet, and in fact when he was replaced as a coach in Pittsburgh, the guy taking over for him won the Cup with the same roster he was failing with.

- Therrien has had success when his line-up has been healthy, as is the case now. But as has been said even by some of his colleagues in the French media, he has never been able to do well with adversity. Look back at his current tenure. In his first season, we were largely healthy but collapsed in the playoffs when we faced significant injuries for the first time. In subsequent years, when we've lost important players (mostly Price), we've faltered again. Case in point being the Rangers series a couple of years ago where Price's knee being injured marked the end of our season again, despite Dustin Tokarski standing on his head for us. When we didn't have the best goalie in the world, we didn't hold up. Last year was the most extreme example of that, whereby we went from being a top team in the league with Price to having the worst record in the league after his injury. Worse than Buffalo, worse than Toronto, worse than Calgary or Vancouver or Columbus. We were putrid. We didn't finish last in the overall standings because our season's start with Price padded our record enough to prevent us from falling all the way to the bottom, but the fact remains that Therrien had nothing there as a back-up plan when Price went down. LA this year is staying afloat without Quick, Tampa made a great playoff run last year without Bishop, the Rangers did very well without Lundqvist, the Preds survived losing RInne, the Pens won a Cup using a rookie goalie after MAF went down. So why did the Habs collapse so much without Price? Because Therrien's system is fully reliant on the goalie doing 80% of the lifting.

- Therrien is not a scapegoat. Jacques Martin was a scapegoat. Pierre Gauthier was a scapegoat. It was easy to blame those men, when in fact retrospection shows us PG set us up pretty well and JM did a fair bit with a lot less. Therrien gets tons of credit for things he doesn't deserve. Sure the record is great now, but again, I put most of that on the back of Carey Price. Without Price, Therrien has shown he does little to contribute to the success of the team. Without a fully healthy line-up, Therrien has struggled. You look at the things a coach can have an impact on: special teams, face-offs, set plays, breakouts, possession metrics, personnel decisions, line combinations. Therrien has been bad-to-questionable on all of those things. Just because the team's record is good, doesn't mean you have to believe every person on the team is doing their job well. Desharnais has been miserably poor this season. Ditto for Pacioretty. Plekanec is playing better in the past 2-3 games but had a horrid start before that. Shaw has been near invisible. Therrien is far from the only person being questioned or criticized here. And like the players, he needs to be held accountable for his role in the process. Just because Price saves his bacon, it doesn't mean he's doing his job well, and for the most part, he isn't. If we're going to say Therrien deserves all the credit for the 12-1-1 start, then you have to give him all the blame as well for how bad last season went. The divide between those two performances show you it really is all about Price for this squad.

- On Subban, I'm not sure what that has to do with any of what I just posted above. With or without Subban, Therrien's performance as a coach has been weak. Sure, I think the Subban trade was a mistake. Sure, I think Subban was mistreated here. I'm also pleased with the performance Weber has given us in a lot of areas thus far. Subban, as I have shown numbers to support before, is the superior defensive player, but Weber in turn has really jumpstarted the powerplay here, and the accuracy of his shot is a welcome addition. PK was without a doubt a flashy player on the ice and a flashier personality off of it. But it's a little insulting to blame him for donating money to the Children's Hospital. Lots of other players have just as much money as he does and you don't see them all rushing to support charities. PK donated money but he also put in a lot of time to what he's done. Are you aware of how many stories there are of PK showing up at the hospital to visit kids unannounced? No media. No fanfare. No "this is about me." Are you aware that PK has continued to support the hospital even though he no longer lives in Montreal or plays for the Habs? Saying that PK only supported the charity just to draw attention to himself is a narrative some people like to play on, just as they like to play on the idea that he wasn't a team player. Guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Gill, Weise, Pacioretty, Markov, and so on have all come out saying PK was a great teammate and that he got a bad rep in the media for no reason. A player can be an entertainer and still be a good teammate. I never once heard Subban bash his teammates in the media. I never once saw him pout about being mistreated by the coach. I never once saw him not celebrating any of his teammates' goals or successes without a big smile on his face. Does he love the camera? Sure. But that doesn't mean he's a liability or a bad teammate or a bad person, and it's nonsensical to attack PK's character for trying to use his money and fame to do good. More players and people could learn from that.

- I hope the team wins a Cup this year. I hope we win many Cups, and so long as we have Price on his game, we're going to be in contention. But that fact has nothing to do with PK being here or not being here, and it has very little to do with anything Michel Therrien has done to help this team.

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8 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Well this opens up a whole can of worms! Welcome to the forum, Eric. I'm going to offer a few counterpoints to what you just posted:

- The team has a great record. They've had great starts to seasons under Therrien before too. The problem is that they can't sustain that. The team falters into December and January every year, and Therrien overplaying veteran players like Markov, Plekanec, Emelin, and Price has led us to be run into the ground as we get into important games down the stretch. He's managed the bench a little better this season, but let's see how we do for an entire season before crowning Michel Therrien a "champion." He hasn't won anything at the NHL level yet, and in fact when he was replaced as a coach in Pittsburgh, the guy taking over for him won the Cup with the same roster he was failing with.

- Therrien has had success when his line-up has been healthy, as is the case now. But as has been said even by some of his colleagues in the French media, he has never been able to do well with adversity. Look back at his current tenure. In his first season, we were largely healthy but collapsed in the playoffs when we faced significant injuries for the first time. In subsequent years, when we've lost important players (mostly Price), we've faltered again. Case in point being the Rangers series a couple of years ago where Price's knee being injured marked the end of our season again, despite Dustin Tokarski standing on his head for us. When we didn't have the best goalie in the world, we didn't hold up. Last year was the most extreme example of that, whereby we went from being a top team in the league with Price to having the worst record in the league after his injury. Worse than Buffalo, worse than Toronto, worse than Calgary or Vancouver or Columbus. We were putrid. We didn't finish last in the overall standings because our season's start with Price padded our record enough to prevent us from falling all the way to the bottom, but the fact remains that Therrien had nothing there as a back-up plan when Price went down. LA this year is staying afloat without Quick, Tampa made a great playoff run last year without Bishop, the Rangers did very well without Lundqvist, the Preds survived losing RInne, the Pens won a Cup using a rookie goalie after MAF went down. So why did the Habs collapse so much without Price? Because Therrien's system is fully reliant on the goalie doing 80% of the lifting.

- Therrien is not a scapegoat. Jacques Martin was a scapegoat. Pierre Gauthier was a scapegoat. It was easy to blame those men, when in fact retrospection shows us PG set us up pretty well and JM did a fair bit with a lot less. Therrien gets tons of credit for things he doesn't deserve. Sure the record is great now, but again, I put most of that on the back of Carey Price. Without Price, Therrien has shown he does little to contribute to the success of the team. Without a fully healthy line-up, Therrien has struggled. You look at the things a coach can have an impact on: special teams, face-offs, set plays, breakouts, possession metrics, personnel decisions, line combinations. Therrien has been bad-to-questionable on all of those things. Just because the team's record is good, doesn't mean you have to believe every person on the team is doing their job well. Desharnais has been miserably poor this season. Ditto for Pacioretty. Plekanec is playing better in the past 2-3 games but had a horrid start before that. Shaw has been near invisible. Therrien is far from the only person being questioned or criticized here. And like the players, he needs to be held accountable for his role in the process. Just because Price saves his bacon, it doesn't mean he's doing his job well, and for the most part, he isn't. If we're going to say Therrien deserves all the credit for the 12-1-1 start, then you have to give him all the blame as well for how bad last season went. The divide between those two performances show you it really is all about Price for this squad.

- On Subban, I'm not sure what that has to do with any of what I just posted above. With or without Subban, Therrien's performance as a coach has been weak. Sure, I think the Subban trade was a mistake. Sure, I think Subban was mistreated here. I'm also pleased with the performance Weber has given us in a lot of areas thus far. Subban, as I have shown numbers to support before, is the superior defensive player, but Weber in turn has really jumpstarted the powerplay here, and the accuracy of his shot is a welcome addition. PK was without a doubt a flashy player on the ice and a flashier personality off of it. But it's a little insulting to blame him for donating money to the Children's Hospital. Lots of other players have just as much money as he does and you don't see them all rushing to support charities. PK donated money but he also put in a lot of time to what he's done. Are you aware of how many stories there are of PK showing up at the hospital to visit kids unannounced? No media. No fanfare. No "this is about me." Are you aware that PK has continued to support the hospital even though he no longer lives in Montreal or plays for the Habs? Saying that PK only supported the charity just to draw attention to himself is a narrative some people like to play on, just as they like to play on the idea that he wasn't a team player. Guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Gill, Weise, Pacioretty, Markov, and so on have all come out saying PK was a great teammate and that he got a bad rep in the media for no reason. A player can be an entertainer and still be a good teammate. I never once heard Subban bash his teammates in the media. I never once saw him pout about being mistreated by the coach. I never once saw him not celebrating any of his teammates' goals or successes without a big smile on his face. Does he love the camera? Sure. But that doesn't mean he's a liability or a bad teammate or a bad person, and it's nonsensical to attack PK's character for trying to use his money and fame to do good. More players and people could learn from that.

- I hope the team wins a Cup this year. I hope we win many Cups, and so long as we have Price on his game, we're going to be in contention. But that fact has nothing to do with PK being here or not being here, and it has very little to do with anything Michel Therrien has done to help this team.

 

See the thing is it's not about individuals. You say This guy had bad start or this guy is not playing like should. Or this guy is the only guy on the team. Therrien's system is the reason why Price can look so good and there no lack of effort anywhere. Just an unequal distribution of luck as it should be. There are 30 teams in league. You want cup but this isn't the 1970s. It's a competitive league and any other coach would not do this well with the team Therrien has. The Defense first mentality makes the job easy for Price because he's skilled enough for the job. Condon was an ECHL scrub which is why we had such bad season last year. Scrivens is 4th string goalie or should've been last year. Stop looking at the past. Therrien has grown as a coach and his skills are elite. He deserves praise and all he gets is constant criticism and gets thrown under the bus. Look at Al Montoya. Even a lesser skilled goalie can look good under Therrien's system. The 10-0 Loss was because Therrien absolutely wanted to rest Price so he can win the next games and that's exactly what happened. All part of the plan. They learned not to play Price too much and I would've done the same thing. This is Montreal however there will always be pressure and fans screaming for a coach's head even with the best record in the league. Anyone who thinks Therrien should be fired now or in the near future is an idiot.

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1 hour ago, Ericwhat said:

 

See the thing is it's not about individuals. You say This guy had bad start or this guy is not playing like should. Or this guy is the only guy on the team. Therrien's system is the reason why Price can look so good and there no lack of effort anywhere. Just an unequal distribution of luck as it should be. There are 30 teams in league. You want cup but this isn't the 1970s. It's a competitive league and any other coach would not do this well with the team Therrien has. The Defense first mentality makes the job easy for Price because he's skilled enough for the job. Condon was an ECHL scrub which is why we had such bad season last year. Scrivens is 4th string goalie or should've been last year. Stop looking at the past. Therrien has grown as a coach and his skills are elite. He deserves praise and all he gets is constant criticism and gets thrown under the bus. Look at Al Montoya. Even a lesser skilled goalie can look good under Therrien's system. The 10-0 Loss was because Therrien absolutely wanted to rest Price so he can win the next games and that's exactly what happened. All part of the plan. They learned not to play Price too much and I would've done the same thing. This is Montreal however there will always be pressure and fans screaming for a coach's head even with the best record in the league. Anyone who thinks Therrien should be fired now or in the near future is an idiot.

when the other team has the puck all game and is bombarding you with shots, thats not a stingy defensive system, thats a mess that your all world goalie is sweeping under the carpet.  jacques martin actually had us playing boring shut down hockey, what therrien has done here is just having lousy forward lines and a weak transition game.

i like how within two lines you blame our bad season on bad goaltending, and then claim that even lesser skilled goalie can look good in therrien's "system" 

anyway I actually came in here to give therrien some props for once, he finally gave his mancrush DD a seat...100 games or so too late but better late than never....gave captain invisible a demotion, my god both of those things in 1 game, and we turn in our best performance of the year by a mile.

first time this guy has made an actual merit based coaching move instead of playing favourites and we get phenomenal results.....just had to give him some credit today. hopefully this is a trend instead of a blind squirrel finding a nut. gotta wonder if maybe theres some captain kirk influence this year

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26 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

when the other team has the puck all game and is bombarding you with shots, thats not a stingy defensive system, thats a mess that your all world goalie is sweeping under the carpet.  jacques martin actually had us playing boring shut down hockey, what therrien has done here is just having lousy forward lines and a weak transition game.

i like how within two lines you blame our bad season on bad goaltending, and then claim that even lesser skilled goalie can look good in therrien's "system" 

anyway I actually came in here to give therrien some props for once, he finally gave his mancrush DD a seat...100 games or so too late but better late than never....gave captain invisible a demotion, my god both of those things in 1 game, and we turn in our best performance of the year by a mile.

first time this guy has made an actual merit based coaching move instead of playing favourites and we get phenomenal results.....just had to give him some credit today. hopefully this is a trend instead of a blind squirrel finding a nut. gotta wonder if maybe theres some captain kirk influence this year

90% of the shots you speak of are outside the slot. 70% of canadiens shots are in the slot.

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1 hour ago, jeff33 said:

when the other team has the puck all game and is bombarding you with shots, thats not a stingy defensive system, thats a mess that your all world goalie is sweeping under the carpet.  jacques martin actually had us playing boring shut down hockey, what therrien has done here is just having lousy forward lines and a weak transition game.

i like how within two lines you blame our bad season on bad goaltending, and then claim that even lesser skilled goalie can look good in therrien's "system" 

anyway I actually came in here to give therrien some props for once, he finally gave his mancrush DD a seat...100 games or so too late but better late than never....gave captain invisible a demotion, my god both of those things in 1 game, and we turn in our best performance of the year by a mile.

first time this guy has made an actual merit based coaching move instead of playing favourites and we get phenomenal results.....just had to give him some credit today. hopefully this is a trend instead of a blind squirrel finding a nut. gotta wonder if maybe theres some captain kirk influence this year

Lousy forward lines? A weak transition game? [edit]? What games are you watching?

 

Please refrain from directing insults towards other posters.

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3 hours ago, Ericwhat said:

 

See the thing is it's not about individuals. You say This guy had bad start or this guy is not playing like should. Or this guy is the only guy on the team. Therrien's system is the reason why Price can look so good and there no lack of effort anywhere. Just an unequal distribution of luck as it should be. There are 30 teams in league. You want cup but this isn't the 1970s. It's a competitive league and any other coach would not do this well with the team Therrien has. The Defense first mentality makes the job easy for Price because he's skilled enough for the job. Condon was an ECHL scrub which is why we had such bad season last year. Scrivens is 4th string goalie or should've been last year. Stop looking at the past. Therrien has grown as a coach and his skills are elite. He deserves praise and all he gets is constant criticism and gets thrown under the bus. Look at Al Montoya. Even a lesser skilled goalie can look good under Therrien's system. The 10-0 Loss was because Therrien absolutely wanted to rest Price so he can win the next games and that's exactly what happened. All part of the plan. They learned not to play Price too much and I would've done the same thing. This is Montreal however there will always be pressure and fans screaming for a coach's head even with the best record in the league. Anyone who thinks Therrien should be fired now or in the near future is an idiot.

The team is doing well, but that doesn't mean we can't also analyze individual players' performance. Or a coach's or GM's performance either. Should we make the assumption that just because the team is first in the league that therefore Pacioretty and Plekanec and Byron are the best forwards in the league and that Weber and Emelin and Pateryn are the best defencemen and that Therrien is the best coach? That seems to be the logic you're asking us to employ here.

If you're saying that MT is not responsible for Condon or Scrivens' performance, then how can he be given credit for Carey Price's performance? I'll agree with you that it was harder to win with Condon/Scrivens than Price, but we shouldn't have been the worst team in the league. Last season's failures weren't only because of our goalies, it was also because we were being beaten in possession on many nights, because we had an awful system, because we couldn't score goals, and because our powerplay was brutal.

You talk about Al Montoya being an average goalie who looks good under Therrien. Well Montoya has a 3.15 GAA and .908 save percentage this year (comparable to Condon and Scrivens' numbers by the way). Last year in Florida, he put up a 2.18 GAA and .919 save percentage. He had a .920 save percentage one year in Winnipeg. Winnipeg! And a year with a .921 with the Isles. He's not Carey and he's probably not a starter in the NHL, but he's no slouch as a goalie. FWIW, I have stated several times that I agreed with Therrien's decision to leave him in for the 10 goals against, but that doesn't excuse Therrien from having 3-4 years of awful possession metrics, line combinations, and so on.

 

1 hour ago, Ericwhat said:

90% of the shots you speak of are outside the slot. 70% of canadiens shots are in the slot.

This is actually about as far from the truth as you can get, so I'm not sure where you got these numbers from. According to Corsica, the Habs rank 20th in the league in the percentage of scoring chances allowed. They're 12th in scoring chances for, but they're 10th-worst in scoring chances against and giving up more chances against per game than they're getting. So not only are the Habs the 4th worst team in terms of shots allowed (as a percentage) and the 7th worst team in Corsi (shot attempt percentage allowed), they're also near the bottom of the league in terms of giving up chances. The point is that we're not just allowing low-danger attempts, we're allowing the opposition to get in on our goalies and get good looks as well.

Now there's nothing wrong with our playing a high-event game. I'm more than happy to trade chances with other teams when we have Price and they have a lesser goalie. But you can't keep giving up more shots, attempts, and chances in most games. Even with Price, that's going to catch up to you. But in response to your statement, no, the numbers do not show the Habs are keeping opponent attempts to the outside nor do they show we're getting most of our shots from in close. In fact, they show quite the opposite. The major difference is that the Habs are 2nd in the league for PDO, with one of the best goalie save percentages and one of the highest team shooting percentages. Historically, every single team regresses to the mean with this, meaning we can expect to see this "luck" run out and out shooting and save percentages drop as the season goes along. Last year, we started shooting at about 12-15% for the first month of the season, we dropped to 8% by the time Price was hurt and from December on, we only scored at a 5% rate. It was predictable that we would collapse, and we did. Price will help to negate some of the risk of the save percentage dropping too too much, but that doesn't make the coaching any better.

 

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On 11/5/2016 at 1:15 PM, H_T_L said:

My feeling exactly. If the plan was to rest Price regardless, then they should have left him in Montreal and called up the kid. We had roster room to do it.

Late reply but I think the main factor in that, beyond the cap and shuttling a guy back and forth for every Price off day being a headache is that we have no way of knowing if the plan was to rest Price regardless, if the score had been say 6-4 and we were playing well and Montoya was just costing us a shot at 2 points, it's probably nice to have the option of going to Carey and trying to win that game. As it stood, honestly it sucks for Montoya but his job is essentially to protect Carey from situations they don't want him in, mostly that means playing road b2bs and things like that but sometimes it means taking a beating. It's a bit crummy for the guy but he's making good money to sit on the bench for 60-65 games and protect the best goalie in the world's interests. 

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