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Latest quote from the coach....

"My philosophy is that when I'm driving my car, I look forward. I don't spend my time looking in the mirror at what's going on behind me," said Therrien, following Thursday's practice.

Let's hope he's not making any quick lane changes.

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16 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Latest quote from the coach....

"My philosophy is that when I'm driving my car, I look forward. I don't spend my time looking in the mirror at what's going on behind me," said Therrien, following Thursday's practice.

Let's hope he's not making any quick lane changes.

I guess he won't see that fire engine coming up behind him. 

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46 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Latest quote from the coach....

"My philosophy is that when I'm driving my car, I look forward. I don't spend my time looking in the mirror at what's going on behind me," said Therrien, following Thursday's practice.

Let's hope he's not making any quick lane changes.

What an odd analogy.   

I guess it fits MT though, but weird.

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51 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Latest quote from the coach....

"My philosophy is that when I'm driving my car, I look forward. I don't spend my time looking in the mirror at what's going on behind me," said Therrien, following Thursday's practice.

Let's hope he's not making any quick lane changes.

Maybe he like Kadri. I don't know. That's for sure.

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1 hour ago, H_T_L said:

Latest quote from the coach....

"My philosophy is that when I'm driving my car, I look forward. I don't spend my time looking in the mirror at what's going on behind me," said Therrien, following Thursday's practice.

Let's hope he's not making any quick lane changes.

So, along with being a bad coach he's a bad driver. Is there anything he does well?

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6 hours ago, H_T_L said:

Latest quote from the coach....

"My philosophy is that when I'm driving my car, I look forward. I don't spend my time looking in the mirror at what's going on behind me," said Therrien, following Thursday's practice.

Let's hope he's not making any quick lane changes.

Basically saying I choose not to learn from mistakes I've made and continue to make the same ones again... explains a heck of a lot.

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On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 0:17 PM, maas_art said:

What an odd analogy.   

I guess it fits MT though, but weird.

If you've ever worked in the business field or taken any sort of management courses it's not weird at all. It's basically saying don't live or dwell in the past, you can only control what you do moving forward so that is what you focus on, you cannot change the past. I've heard Babcock say almost the same thing when coaching the wings and it was received as it was meant, which I'm sure almost everyone knew what he meant but because Therrien said it , it's turned to the negative narrative. I am not saying he's the best coach or on his band wagon but this is really nit picky.

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So lets recap ....

MT is now basically saying "he doesn't look back at the last few games (losses) , he just keeps concentrating at the games coming up "

 

& just awhile ago , after the "Blue Jacket game" :5155: .

MT was basically saying " don't look at the 10- 0 ! score (loss)  , just concentrate on that RECORD start ".  (so I guess MT was looking HARD in the mirror that day) .

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Eyez said:

So lets recap ....

MT is now basically saying "he doesn't look back at the last few games (losses) , he just keeps concentrating at the games coming up "

 

& just awhile ago , after the "Blue Jacket game" :5155: .

MT was basically saying " don't look at the 10- 0 ! score (loss)  , just concentrate on that RECORD start ".  (so I guess MT was looking HARD in the mirror that day) .

Whatever's convenient to him. When we win, he tells us that it doesn't matter how we played, that it shows character to have found a way to get the job done. When we lose, he tells us he can't be disappointed because what matters is how we played the game.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

[EDIT]. The Coach is doing an amazing job. Nobodies like Byron and Mitchell become somebodies with Michel Therrien. Prospects like Beaulieu go from #5 D to Number #2 D. Veterans like Weber and Petry and Gallagher play well are motivated with good work ethic and leadership and veterans like Plekanec and Pacioretty who go on slumps make a full recovery and go back to regular production with time. The team plays very well with key injuries in the lineup and Price doesn't have to be superman to win games. The System is built on speed and the transition game is execeptional. All players under Therrien are playing at their best under the speed system and Marc Bergevin gets the players Therrien needs to fullfill that system. The players Bergevin gets are usually depth scrubs but they become so much better under Therrien and new talent like Radulov and Shaw are able to come in and play good and dominate. Prospects like Danault become #2 centerman and excel at it. Carr and Ghetto and Redmond perform well when they get their chance. Al Montoya has become a reliable backup. Back in Florida he was a nobody. You guys need to stop looking at the coach he once was and look at the coach he is now. He learned plenty along the way. Stop this negative criticism agenda. It motivates every player and staff member who at the boards but it also brings them down. Give credit where credit is due and Michel Therrien exceptinal work ethic and instruction has every player listening with the cancer superstar fake wannabee finally gone. Michel Therrien would be nominated and win coach of year if it wasn;t for these baseless and factless bashing [EDIT] who blind to see the real success the entire team and organization has had.

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On 12/3/2016 at 9:35 PM, BigTed3 said:

Whatever's convenient to him. When we win, he tells us that it doesn't matter how we played, that it shows character to have found a way to get the job done. When we lose, he tells us he can't be disappointed because what matters is how we played the game.

 

Look at the games lost. 3/4 of the games lost were only lost by a one goal difference. And when Therrien loses big like 10-0. It was because they had to lose because players get cocky. They got 10-0 win eventually to get even. Therrien is a players coach who motivates, develops, maintains, and pulls the strings to bring out the best in each individual player at the right time and the team as a whole. Even if he has to lose one game badly in order to win 4/5 games the following games. Look at the lost streaks? Not very long are they? If they lose it's because the players get lazy and think they're too good. Players have to give 100% each game and some players tend to relax when things are going well. That's when a loss is sometimes necessary in order to wake them up. Everything is part of the plan Therrien remains firmly in control.

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Was actually coming in here this morning to post about how well the Habs played the past two games and that the coaching staff has earned its dues for how they've prepared against two good hockey teams.

Eric, there are in my view a lot of flaws in the statements you've made about Therrien above though. Some examples:

- Pacioretty and Plekanec breaking out of prolonged slumps doesn't mean a coach is great. If you had told me Plekanec had gone 30 games with 2 goals and then we made a coaching change and the new coach got him scoring 20 goals in 30 games, I'd say you have an argument. But Plekanec has scored about 12-15 goals in his last 100 games, so there's clearly been a drop-off in play here. If you're crediting Therrien for Plekanec's play the past two weeks, you also need to hold him responsible for his poor play over the past two seasons.

- Montoya might have been a nobody to you when he was in Florida, but last year he had a 2.18 GAA and .918 save percentage under Gallant. This year, he's sitting at 2.91 and .905. Montoya has IMO played pretty well for us, but I'd hardly say Therrien has elevated his game. He has been a decent back-up his entire career, he might just not be someone who was on our radar much until he came here.

- I would not say Danault has excelled at being a #2 center. He has a grand total of 4 points in his last 17 games. Hardly anything to write home about. I've been pleasantly surprised with how well Danault has played and kudos to the player and coach for getting him where he is, but he's a bottom 6 player at this point and nothing more.

- A 10-0 win doesn't cancel out a 10-0 loss. That leaves you at .500 hockey, which doesn't make the playoffs.

All in all, I would agree with you that Therrien has over-achieved this year. This is probably his best year as a coach since his 1st comeback year here. His system is still flawed, the PP is still not great, and he still has issues identifying skill over heart and grit. But he's a much better coach when he doesn't have Weise and Desharnais and Bouillon to turn to. Bergevin deserves a lot of that credit for making sure the "grinders" we have now are actually players with speed and some amount of puck skill, because even when Therrien promotes a Byron, Mitchell, or Danault, they're not as good as true top 6 players, but they at least don't slow down the actual top 6 guys. Therrien has also done a fair job at managing the D pairings this year. Less reliance on Markov, good stability with the duos, players playing on the correct side of the ice, and so on. So yes, there are definitely things he's done well, but to say he's a great coach is an over-statement. He's had some positive stretches, the team is a much better possession team this year (which is what we've been asking for for 3 years!), and there are signs we are maintaining this style of play finally. As I said in the GDT, losing Desharnais might have been a blessing in disguise last year and this year because it's really opened up Therrien to other possibilities and not having the line-up weighed down by having to get DD protected minutes. Hopefully this style of play and use of speed continues.

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8 hours ago, Ericwhat said:

[EDIT]. The Coach is doing an amazing job. Nobodies like Byron and Mitchell become somebodies with Michel Therrien. Prospects like Beaulieu go from #5 D to Number #2 D. Veterans like Weber and Petry and Gallagher play well are motivated with good work ethic and leadership and veterans like Plekanec and Pacioretty who go on slumps make a full recovery and go back to regular production with time. The team plays very well with key injuries in the lineup and Price doesn't have to be superman to win games. The System is built on speed and the transition game is execeptional. All players under Therrien are playing at their best under the speed system and Marc Bergevin gets the players Therrien needs to fullfill that system. The players Bergevin gets are usually depth scrubs but they become so much better under Therrien and new talent like Radulov and Shaw are able to come in and play good and dominate. Prospects like Danault become #2 centerman and excel at it. Carr and Ghetto and Redmond perform well when they get their chance. Al Montoya has become a reliable backup. Back in Florida he was a nobody. You guys need to stop looking at the coach he once was and look at the coach he is now. He learned plenty along the way. Stop this negative criticism agenda. It motivates every player and staff member who at the boards but it also brings them down. Give credit where credit is due and Michel Therrien exceptinal work ethic and instruction has every player listening with the cancer superstar fake wannabee finally gone. Michel Therrien would be nominated and win coach of year if it wasn;t for these baseless and factless bashing [EDIT] who blind to see the real success the entire team and organization has had.

Kudos on the coaching and management team for doing a great job this year, but there's still an understandable bad taste in peoples mouths from last years disaster. Where was this great coach and GM last season when they couldn't make the adjustments needed to pull out of a stretch that saw us become the worst team in the NHL after the break? Memories like that are tough to put behind you for a lot of fans. Can you blame them?

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4 hours ago, H_T_L said:

Kudos on the coaching and management team for doing a great job this year, but there's still an understandable bad taste in peoples mouths from last years disaster. Where was this great coach and GM last season when they couldn't make the adjustments needed to pull out of a stretch that saw us become the worst team in the NHL after the break? Memories like that are tough to put behind you for a lot of fans. Can you blame them?

Memories of last year are painful, as you said, but also the two years prior to that, when we were also heavily reliant on Carey to bail us out. Last season wasn't a new phenomenon, it was simply our seeing what happened when Carey wasn't there to save the day. The same thing likely would have happened without Carey in preceding years and in fact did on the two occasions in the playoffs when he went down to injury.

I think the other thing about Therrien is that no matter how well he does as a coach, many fans will also retain a sour taste in their mouth about his treatment of Subban and other players as human beings. We've hashed this out before, but to come in and say (without meeting him) that he was "going to make Subban a better person" without saying anything like that about any other player was pretty distasteful. The way he called out Subban repeatedly and benched him and so on also showed a real lack of character on Therrien's part for him to put his own ego above the team. When you're the coach, it's your job to be bigger than that. It's kind of like a parent making fun of their own kid. Maybe the kid did some things you didn't agree with, but it's your job to be the bigger person.

So yes, I'm pleased to see the Habs playing a better style this year and not relying on Carey as much. Maybe that's Therrien evolving, maybe it's the Muller effect, maybe it's Bergevin giving us a better supporting cast and allowing Therrien to do less damage. For whatever reason, it's worked out better. But ask me if I feel good about Michel Therrien still being the coach here and the answer is no. I don't think he deserves to be here based on coaching ability, I don't appreciate that he was hired primarily because the Habs rejected better candidates who didn't speak French, and I don't see him in a positive light on account of his personal vendettas against certain players. So good on him for turning things around this year, but don't mistake support for the team as support for this coach.

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16 hours ago, Ericwhat said:

Look at the games lost. 3/4 of the games lost were only lost by a one goal difference. And when Therrien loses big like 10-0. It was because they had to lose because players get cocky. They got 10-0 win eventually to get even. Therrien is a players coach who motivates, develops, maintains, and pulls the strings to bring out the best in each individual player at the right time and the team as a whole. Even if he has to lose one game badly in order to win 4/5 games the following games. Look at the lost streaks? Not very long are they? If they lose it's because the players get lazy and think they're too good. Players have to give 100% each game and some players tend to relax when things are going well. That's when a loss is sometimes necessary in order to wake them up. Everything is part of the plan Therrien remains firmly in control.

 

I tend to agree that he's not as bad as coach as some make him out to be. I do think this team has a deeper talent level and I do like the make up of this years team. He still has done well to manage the minutes and play the personal where they need to be. We as fans may disagree with some moves but his record does show he can coach. I know some will point to Price but any team that goes a long way or has good records also have a good to great goalie. Even in the Bowman years when Dryden when back to school we didn't win the cup with basically the same team , when he came back we did again. Did that make Bowman a bad coach who only relied on Dryden? So yes you can dislike the way he treats a favorite player (which Bowman had a lot of also - see Federov when in Detroit) but it's hard to deny he can coach. I didn't say it was the style many like but most didn't like how Lamarie coached either with the trap but he did win a lot.

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9 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

- Montoya might have been a nobody to you when he was in Florida, but last year he had a 2.18 GAA and .918 save percentage under Gallant. This year, he's sitting at 2.91 and .905. Montoya has IMO played pretty well for us, but I'd hardly say Therrien has elevated his game. He has been a decent back-up his entire career, he might just not be someone who was on our radar much until he came here.

Well, and he had pedigree. He was drafted 6th overall - he was expected to be a high end starter, its just never happened for him (yet at least - some goalies, ie hasek, thomas, didnt start dominating till their late 20s early 30s)

 

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4 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I tend to agree that he's not as bad as coach as some make him out to be. I do think this team has a deeper talent level and I do like the make up of this years team. He still has done well to manage the minutes and play the personal where they need to be. We as fans may disagree with some moves but his record does show he can coach. I know some will point to Price but any team that goes a long way or has good records also have a good to great goalie. Even in the Bowman years when Dryden when back to school we didn't win the cup with basically the same team , when he came back we did again. Did that make Bowman a bad coach who only relied on Dryden? So yes you can dislike the way he treats a favorite player (which Bowman had a lot of also - see Federov when in Detroit) but it's hard to deny he can coach. I didn't say it was the style many like but most didn't like how Lamarie coached either with the trap but he did win a lot.

Last year's Cup champion Penguins won with rookie goalie Matt Murray.

The runner-up Sharks featured first-year starter Martin Jones.

The Eastern conference runner-up Lightning had to deal with injuries to Stamkos and Bishop and still played well with rookie Andrei Vasilevskiy in goal.

And the Western conference runner-up Blues featured two guys (Allen and Elliott), neither of whom was a clearcut number one goalie and one of whom they decided was expendable in the off-season.

In 2014-15, the Hawks couldn't settle on whether to use the struggling Corey Crawford or rookie Scott Darling in the playoffs.

In 11-12, Quick played lights-out in the playoffs but in general, he's one of the more overrated goalies in the league based mainly on that playoff run. When the Kings won in 2013-14, he was very average in the playoffs and in fact, he's been a very average goalie in the past few years too. The Kings have been a top possession team in the league under Sutter, Quick has faced the lowest shot difficulty among starters over that time, and yet his save percentage has been mediocre. He's an average goalie whose reputation has been inflated by his Cup run in 2012, but he's hardly an elite goalie.

In 2010, the finals featured Antti Niemi and Michael Leighton. Enough said.

In 2008-09, MAF had a pretty mediocre year and was rocky at many points in both the regular season and playoffs. He would have an awful game for every great one he had.

And of course, who can forget Chris Osgood on the powerhouse Detroit teams of the late 90s.

Does an elite goalie help? Absolutely. But most teams can't count on one and are able to win despite that. What's more important is having a team that plays the right way, has depth, wins the possession battle, has its stars perform like stars when it counts, and having a goalie that gets hot at the right time.

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I know this has been said over and over, but I think it's worth repeating re: Therrien and Price.

Riding a great goalie doesn't make you a good coach.  But it also doesn't make you a bad coach.  All it makes you is a coach with a great goalie.

However, having a superstar goalie playing like Price has been does help a coach to win more games.  It helps a good coach win more games, and it helps a bad coach win more games.  

So when people bring up the fact that Therrien has Price, they're not saying that he's automatically any worse because of it.  Any coach, good or bad, should be designing their system around a goalie like Carey.  What they are saying, though, is that because of Carey you can't just point to the team's record as an indication that the coach is doing a good job.  The point is that the record is going to be good no matter how the coach is doing, so it makes sense to look at other metrics to figure out whether or not he's the best choice for the position.

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13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Last year's Cup champion Penguins won with rookie goalie Matt Murray.

The runner-up Sharks featured first-year starter Martin Jones.

The Eastern conference runner-up Lightning had to deal with injuries to Stamkos and Bishop and still played well with rookie Andrei Vasilevskiy in goal.

And the Western conference runner-up Blues featured two guys (Allen and Elliott), neither of whom was a clearcut number one goalie and one of whom they decided was expendable in the off-season.

In 2014-15, the Hawks couldn't settle on whether to use the struggling Corey Crawford or rookie Scott Darling in the playoffs.

In 11-12, Quick played lights-out in the playoffs but in general, he's one of the more overrated goalies in the league based mainly on that playoff run. When the Kings won in 2013-14, he was very average in the playoffs and in fact, he's been a very average goalie in the past few years too. The Kings have been a top possession team in the league under Sutter, Quick has faced the lowest shot difficulty among starters over that time, and yet his save percentage has been mediocre. He's an average goalie whose reputation has been inflated by his Cup run in 2012, but he's hardly an elite goalie.

In 2010, the finals featured Antti Niemi and Michael Leighton. Enough said.

In 2008-09, MAF had a pretty mediocre year and was rocky at many points in both the regular season and playoffs. He would have an awful game for every great one he had.

And of course, who can forget Chris Osgood on the powerhouse Detroit teams of the late 90s.

Does an elite goalie help? Absolutely. But most teams can't count on one and are able to win despite that. What's more important is having a team that plays the right way, has depth, wins the possession battle, has its stars perform like stars when it counts, and having a goalie that gets hot at the right time.

Even the Wings teams did bring in Vernon and Hasek both it wasn't Osgood for all the cup runs.

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6 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

I know this has been said over and over, but I think it's worth repeating re: Therrien and Price.

Riding a great goalie doesn't make you a good coach.  But it also doesn't make you a bad coach.  All it makes you is a coach with a great goalie.

However, having a superstar goalie playing like Price has been does help a coach to win more games.  It helps a good coach win more games, and it helps a bad coach win more games.  

So when people bring up the fact that Therrien has Price, they're not saying that he's automatically any worse because of it.  Any coach, good or bad, should be designing their system around a goalie like Carey.  What they are saying, though, is that because of Carey you can't just point to the team's record as an indication that the coach is doing a good job.  The point is that the record is going to be good no matter how the coach is doing, so it makes sense to look at other metrics to figure out whether or not he's the best choice for the position.

Fantastic post, Manatee. To me, the crux of it is this:

- Therrien has won a lot of games with Price.

- Metrics show that most of those games were won BECAUSE of Price. Analysis has shown that if we had a league-average starter in goal, we wouldn't have made the playoffs using Therrien's system. The major difference was Price's save percentage being so much higher than league average. Scoring chances stats also show that his save percentage is higher because he stops more shots, not because the quality of shots is any lower than other teams, so we can't give Therrien credit for this.

- Up until this season, Therrien's system focused on trying to play a defensive game with dump-ins and conservative play designed to limit scoring chances at both ends. This is exactly the opposite of what you would think a coach should do to take advantage of Price being better than the opposition's goalie. This year, we've seen an improvement, but it doesn't show any understanding on MT's part of how to exploit Price's talent to our advantage.

- The two playoffs where we lost Price to injury and then last season when he went down for the year, we stopped winning.

So basically, what we can say is that Therrien has never proven that he can win without Price. It's also fair to say that much of Therrien's success can be directly attributed to Price being so much better than league average. It's fine to point out Price is part of the team and the Habs as a whole have won games, but the bottom line is that until this year, they hadn't really won those games because of anything the coaches deserved credit for.

 

 

 

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That's why I've been questioning, does a team superstar necessarily have to be the goalie?  I'd rather have a superstar forward instead. I'm saying this because if the salary to retain Price becomes stupendously prohibitive and weighs down the cap space, I won't mind letting him go.  

If you look back at the Cup winners since 2012, you can hardly say their strongest factor was their goalie.  How often has the season's Vezina winner won the Cup? Sure, their goalie played his part but how often did he have to steal games for them, series after series?  Their strengths were in scoring and tight defence.

Give me Craig Anderson, and I'll use the $$$ savings to invest in 2 superstar centres to fill the first 2 lines. :4322:

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