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#67 Max Pacioretty 2017-18


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haha its too complicated of a conversation in here.

its as simple as this my friends:

 max is good at taking a wrist shot. and he is a good skater....and thats it.

all this talk about playing harder or this and that....white noise. his abilities are what they are. hes good at scoring with his wrist shot.

hes not gonna do better on the pp by trying harder, because the reason he stinks on the pp is that he cant take a one timer and hes a terrible passer. 

hes not gonna be a better leader than this under any circumstance.  hes not gonna start hitting people, or igniting the comeback, or whatever else we hope he might do, because he isnt good at those things and he isnt going to magically get good at them.

This is the year to move on, and any smart manager would know that. he is not worth the 7-9 mil he is going to ask for , and his trade value will never be higher.

 

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2 hours ago, jeff33 said:

haha its too complicated of a conversation in here.

its as simple as this my friends:

 max is good at taking a wrist shot. and he is a good skater....and thats it.

all this talk about playing harder or this and that....white noise. his abilities are what they are. hes good at scoring with his wrist shot.

hes not gonna do better on the pp by trying harder, because the reason he stinks on the pp is that he cant take a one timer and hes a terrible passer. 

hes not gonna be a better leader than this under any circumstance.  hes not gonna start hitting people, or igniting the comeback, or whatever else we hope he might do, because he isnt good at those things and he isnt going to magically get good at them.

This is the year to move on, and any smart manager would know that. he is not worth the 7-9 mil he is going to ask for , and his trade value will never be higher.

 

Agreed. Not only Pacioretty but many others. Time for a rebuild IMO.

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I do believe that he is an asset we should trade simply because he would fetch us a sweet return. However, it's not going to happen with Bergevin at the helm. I have really enjoyed Max's time in Montreal and I would continue to support him should he be extended, but... the return could really help us for many, many years to come. The team has to at least EXPLORE the possibility of a trade.

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9 hours ago, roy_133 said:

Good old PJ Stock, Pacioretty's shot location charts doesn't show a bad perimeter player. He had a lot of chances last night, actually played well. Led the team in chances. He's had some ugly games to start the season but he's been better lately.

As for the captaincy, it's so hard for me to assess/care, it just seems to come with the territory, I moderated here when Saku was here and A LOT of people thought he was a bad captain but he seems to be remembered much more fondly in hindsight. IF the captain has a relevant role, most of it goes on behind closed doors. I'm not really sure it's relevant, the letter doesn't mean Weber or Price can't be a or even the leader on the team. It feels like Montreal is the only market that overrates it to the degree it does. Even Toronto isn't as bad. 

Should Subban have been captain? I don't know, he has a lot of positive on-ice passion but some of the stuff he does could shine an, unnecessary light maybe on a very controversial position already. That stupid mouthwash story, for example. Did it matter? No, was it discussed to death? Yes. If he did it as captain of the Canadiens in the finals and it played out that way it would still be blowing up. I don't know, also he seemed to have a lot of problems with different teammates and it being a team vote, he was probably not winning lol. 

I just think, who cares? The team voted for Pacioretty so whatever. Was Gionta a GREAT captain? He was a good dude, so is Pacioretty. He looked serious, I suppose. Who knows, though really. Everyone has a preconceived notion of what a captain should be, but whatever the reason they voted Pacioretty for is fine. If the team is lacking leadership, go get more leaders I guess. I really don't buy a guy can't be a leader without a letter. Weber can be the leader. Imagine him with the C if it makes people feel better.

Max deserves criticism at times but a lot it is tied to things that are rumors or seem made up. He's not playing well AND he ran Subban out of town. I don't think he had nearly enough pull to run Subban out of town, the only player they respect enough to have that kind of power is Price, who I also don't think ran Subban out of town. He's not scoring right now AND he's a bad captain. He's got warts, he deserves heat. I just wish the tabloid stuff wouldn't be tied in but it's Montreal.

I actually didn't love Gionta as a captain for the same reasons I don't love Max in that role, but I also felt like Gionta handled the role and the pressure better. We've seen Max struggle openly with his role as a leader and he's admitted he feels a lot of pressure trying to be the captain when he has to lead the team through slumps. I'm just not sure he's cut out for the job. Regardless of who speaks up in the room, the fans/media/players associate a certain amount of responsibility with being the captain and if the team struggles, the captain is going to be put under the microscope more than others and he's going to have to answer more questions and face more heat than other guys. Love or hate his personality, Subban was simply more adept at dealing with the pressure and handling criticism and the media.

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32 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I actually didn't love Gionta as a captain for the same reasons I don't love Max in that role, but I also felt like Gionta handled the role and the pressure better. We've seen Max struggle openly with his role as a leader and he's admitted he feels a lot of pressure trying to be the captain when he has to lead the team through slumps. I'm just not sure he's cut out for the job. Regardless of who speaks up in the room, the fans/media/players associate a certain amount of responsibility with being the captain and if the team struggles, the captain is going to be put under the microscope more than others and he's going to have to answer more questions and face more heat than other guys. Love or hate his personality, Subban was simply more adept at dealing with the pressure and handling criticism and the media.

Yes but that's mostly unique to the market, which was my point, which I think is incredibly silly. It's not the same anywhere else, Montreal places undue stress on captains and goalies relative to any other market in the league. In say, Toronto, they'd be more apt to be hard on management or coaches.

As for Subban, he was good at dealing with pressure but he also seemed to rub several of his teammates the wrong way and created stupid controversies for no reason. He got a lot of (irrelevant) heat for the Crosby finals stuff, that kind of crap doesn't play any better. Really, anyone they named, half of the fan base would be aggravated with, which is the problem but at the end of the day, the most important aspects of a captaincy are things we don't see, so it's pretty easy to just defer to the player vote. Who knows, really? Also, I firmly believe that it truly doesn't matter. If it was Subban doing silly goofy things or Pacioretty getting stressed out, I don't think it matters. Pacioretty's performance hasn't dropped with the C, that's all I care about. I don't think him having it over Weber has accounted for any points gained or lost in the standings. The rest is Montreal noise.

FWIW, I don't think Pacioretty is a good or bad captain, he might be bad. I just don't know and I don't think anyone else knows and I think we try too hard to make it a story. Pacioretty the player has warts that deserve criticism, I just think we're over analyzing the other stuff. I don't know that Subban would be any better, I don't think it would have any impact on our record. I think Subban was a better player, but not sure what that would mean. Do I think players would work harder because Subban was the C? Subban seemed pretty, polarizing, in the locker room. Also, the players had every chance to vote him captain and didn't. If they thought they were costing themselves big wins by voting Pacioretty, I'm sure they wouldn't have. Strip of the C, give it to Weber, whatever. See if it makes a difference, I'd just be surprised because I don't think captaincy matters. It only matters for the guy who has to go through it because it makes his job harder and if you think the stress is getting to Max, okay fine but his production is the same. It's hard to see where. 

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16 hours ago, roy_133 said:

Yes but that's mostly unique to the market, which was my point, which I think is incredibly silly. It's not the same anywhere else, Montreal places undue stress on captains and goalies relative to any other market in the league. In say, Toronto, they'd be more apt to be hard on management or coaches.

As for Subban, he was good at dealing with pressure but he also seemed to rub several of his teammates the wrong way and created stupid controversies for no reason. He got a lot of (irrelevant) heat for the Crosby finals stuff, that kind of crap doesn't play any better. Really, anyone they named, half of the fan base would be aggravated with, which is the problem but at the end of the day, the most important aspects of a captaincy are things we don't see, so it's pretty easy to just defer to the player vote. Who knows, really? Also, I firmly believe that it truly doesn't matter. If it was Subban doing silly goofy things or Pacioretty getting stressed out, I don't think it matters. Pacioretty's performance hasn't dropped with the C, that's all I care about. I don't think him having it over Weber has accounted for any points gained or lost in the standings. The rest is Montreal noise.

FWIW, I don't think Pacioretty is a good or bad captain, he might be bad. I just don't know and I don't think anyone else knows and I think we try too hard to make it a story. Pacioretty the player has warts that deserve criticism, I just think we're over analyzing the other stuff. I don't know that Subban would be any better, I don't think it would have any impact on our record. I think Subban was a better player, but not sure what that would mean. Do I think players would work harder because Subban was the C? Subban seemed pretty, polarizing, in the locker room. Also, the players had every chance to vote him captain and didn't. If they thought they were costing themselves big wins by voting Pacioretty, I'm sure they wouldn't have. Strip of the C, give it to Weber, whatever. See if it makes a difference, I'd just be surprised because I don't think captaincy matters. It only matters for the guy who has to go through it because it makes his job harder and if you think the stress is getting to Max, okay fine but his production is the same. It's hard to see where. 

This is a very good post and well said. We as fans don't know what is said on the bench or in the locker room and really we don't have the right to know. A leader in any situation you're job or in a crisis a firefighter or officer or any situation. I want a controlled steady voice not a "reactionary" jumping up and down yelling or calling people out in the open.(what kind of boss or manager do want to work for) I agree mostly though the Captaincy is overblown. You need several leaders on any one team to make it a team. It's been openly said Chicago is missing Hossa for more than just his play because as has been said about Price in the past he was "a calming voice". I watch a lot of Wings and Hawks games also and Toews and Z are well thought of as Captains and I don't see a lot of on ice or bench speeches or hear about locker room talks with those two either. They are both steady leaders. Anyway I agree with the above.

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On 11/15/2017 at 0:26 PM, jennifer_rocket said:

I do believe that he is an asset we should trade simply because he would fetch us a sweet return. However, it's not going to happen with Bergevin at the helm. I have really enjoyed Max's time in Montreal and I would continue to support him should he be extended, but... the return could really help us for many, many years to come. The team has to at least EXPLORE the possibility of a trade.

Pretty much.

I like max. He's an explosive shooter, he scores consistently but he's not going to be a game breaker very often.    Like you, i'll support him as a member of the team but I think that now is the time to move on. With the remainder of this year and a full season next on the sweetheart deal I think someone would still pay a premium for him.  Maybe more than what the avs got for Duchene, or at least in that ballpark.  I do believe we could use Max (a player at a position we are fairly strong at) to fill holes at positions we are weaker at (LD, Centre etc).  But like you, i dont see MB doing that.  If he trades Max he's essentially saying we're rebuilding (or at least retooling) and that doesnt bode well for his 5 6 year plan. 

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Yeah, I don't quite get the Max criticism. He is what he is. He always has been. An excellent 30-goal scorer who has done very good work for Montreal throughout the years. Criticize the organization for perhaps giving the 'C' to the wrong player. Max, I am sure, is just trying to do his best to lead the team. Perhaps he wasn't the right player to have been given the captaincy.

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, I don't quite get the Max criticism. He is what he is. He always has been. An excellent 30-goal scorer who has done very good work for Montreal throughout the years. Criticize the organization for perhaps giving the 'C' to the wrong player. Max, I am sure, is just trying to do his best to lead the team. Perhaps he wasn't the right player to have been given the captaincy.

We don't have a 'right' player to be captain.

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, I don't quite get the Max criticism. He is what he is. He always has been. An excellent 30-goal scorer who has done very good work for Montreal throughout the years. Criticize the organization for perhaps giving the 'C' to the wrong player. Max, I am sure, is just trying to do his best to lead the team. Perhaps he wasn't the right player to have been given the captaincy.

Players voted though.  He beat out Subban.  Totally agree with your point about him as a player. He is exactly what he's always been. He's still great value. 

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2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Players voted though.  He beat out Subban.  Totally agree with your point about him as a player. He is exactly what he's always been. He's still great value. 

Players voted, but I don't for a second believe there wasn't influence in how the organization wanted the vote to turn out. Max repeated Therrien's mantra to a tee in his media interviews and he was the coach's pet to some degree. Subban, the other real consideration for captain, was constantly put down by coach and GM with comments about how certain players needed to be more disciplined and better team players and less individualistic... no names mentioned, but these comments always surfaced whenever PK was involved in something. If they were willing to be so public about their hatred towards Subban, there's no doubt they also tried to push players towards voting for Max. Which is not to say Max isn't well-respected or liked by his teammates, but the culture built by the team has been one of propping up players like Pacioretty and Weber and Shaw and pushing out guys like Subban, Eller, Galchenyuk, and so on.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Players voted, but I don't for a second believe there wasn't influence in how the organization wanted the vote to turn out. Max repeated Therrien's mantra to a tee in his media interviews and he was the coach's pet to some degree. Subban, the other real consideration for captain, was constantly put down by coach and GM with comments about how certain players needed to be more disciplined and better team players and less individualistic... no names mentioned, but these comments always surfaced whenever PK was involved in something. If they were willing to be so public about their hatred towards Subban, there's no doubt they also tried to push players towards voting for Max. Which is not to say Max isn't well-respected or liked by his teammates, but the culture built by the team has been one of propping up players like Pacioretty and Weber and Shaw and pushing out guys like Subban, Eller, Galchenyuk, and so on.

Yeah i have no idea but dont disagree with your points. I was just pointing out that it wasnt the coaching staff who gave him the C as was indicated. 

We know that there were a portion of the players who didnt like him (as is true of any player) so who knows how much influence a guy like Plekanec may have had in helping some players decide which way to vote.  Conversely, Patches is probably not as polarizing so a lot of guys may have felt it was a 'safer choice.'
 

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18 hours ago, maas_art said:

Players voted though.  He beat out Subban.  Totally agree with your point about him as a player. He is exactly what he's always been. He's still great value. 

Well, jeez, let's just allow the players to manage the team, as well. :lol: Can we take a player vote on if Pacioretty should be traded for future assets? Or if Alzner can be a healthy scratch? Maybe they can vote to bring back the triple-low-five... oh wait, too late. Maybe they voted on trading Subban for Weber.

My point is, if players were the best judge of anything to do with team management or coaching (role assignment, development, systems, drafting, etc), then what do we need Bergevin for. Bergevin is supposed to manage the team, maybe he should commit to doing the job. Or, better yet... if he CAN'T do it, maybe he can be replaced by someone who can.

Also, yes, Pacioretty. Excellent player. Don't get the hate. He's valuable. We need future assets.

 

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Well, jeez, let's just allow the players to manage the team, as well. :lol: Can we take a player vote on if Pacioretty should be traded for future assets? Or if Alzner can be a healthy scratch? Maybe they can vote to bring back the triple-low-five... oh wait, too late. Maybe they voted on trading Subban for Weber.

My point is, if players were the best judge of anything to do with team management or coaching (role assignment, development, systems, drafting, etc), then what do we need Bergevin for. Bergevin is supposed to manage the team, maybe he should commit to doing the job. Or, better yet... if he CAN'T do it, maybe he can be replaced by someone who can.

Also, yes, Pacioretty. Excellent player. Don't get the hate. He's valuable. We need future assets.

 

Hmmm Nashville didn't give Subban the C either must be a conspiracy! It couldn't be how Subban himself had the team and players upset by his own actions during last years playoffs....no couldn't be poor Subban not being able to close his mouth. It was widely reported the team told him no more interviews for the last 3 games, because he was only inspiring the other team and waking up Sidney Crosby. Just like when playing Tampa and Subban said how Bishop was just lucky. Yep make the other team play harder and have the other player Bishop out play your guy! Great for the team to be polarizing! He is a great talent just keep him away from the media not what you want in a Captain!

 

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1 hour ago, CaptWelly said:

Hmmm Nashville didn't give Subban the C either must be a conspiracy! It couldn't be how Subban himself had the team and players upset by his own actions during last years playoffs....no couldn't be poor Subban not being able to close his mouth. It was widely reported the team told him no more interviews for the last 3 games, because he was only inspiring the other team and waking up Sidney Crosby. Just like when playing Tampa and Subban said how Bishop was just lucky. Yep make the other team play harder and have the other player Bishop out play your guy! Great for the team to be polarizing! He is a great talent just keep him away from the media not what you want in a Captain!

 

Well he did manage to come through in the clutch when the team needed him, and put the team on his back night after night......be pretty cool if we had ANYONE doing that since he left, let alone our non-polarizing captain, or the greatest leader on earth we apparently got back

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