Jump to content
The Official Site of the Montréal Canadiens
Canadiens de Montreal

#67 Max Pacioretty 2017-18


habs_93
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

Hmmm Nashville didn't give Subban the C either must be a conspiracy! It couldn't be how Subban himself had the team and players upset by his own actions during last years playoffs....no couldn't be poor Subban not being able to close his mouth. It was widely reported the team told him no more interviews for the last 3 games, because he was only inspiring the other team and waking up Sidney Crosby. Just like when playing Tampa and Subban said how Bishop was just lucky. Yep make the other team play harder and have the other player Bishop out play your guy! Great for the team to be polarizing! He is a great talent just keep him away from the media not what you want in a Captain!

 

I don't know how this relates to the comment I was making. My point was, perhaps the wrong captain was chosen by the organization, I was corrected that the players voted on the captain, and I responded by saying players should play hockey and coaching and management should handle those responsibilities... since that's what they're paid to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/20/2017 at 0:10 PM, BigTed3 said:

Players voted, but I don't for a second believe there wasn't influence in how the organization wanted the vote to turn out. Max repeated Therrien's mantra to a tee in his media interviews and he was the coach's pet to some degree. Subban, the other real consideration for captain, was constantly put down by coach and GM with comments about how certain players needed to be more disciplined and better team players and less individualistic... no names mentioned, but these comments always surfaced whenever PK was involved in something. If they were willing to be so public about their hatred towards Subban, there's no doubt they also tried to push players towards voting for Max. Which is not to say Max isn't well-respected or liked by his teammates, but the culture built by the team has been one of propping up players like Pacioretty and Weber and Shaw and pushing out guys like Subban, Eller, Galchenyuk, and so on.

I don't buy it, they didn't have to have a players vote. There was none with Gionta, they could have just named Max captain instead of having a fake vote that was in and of its self unnecessary. Subban seemed to generally rub enough guys the wrong way, for whatever reason, that it's pretty logical he'd lose. I just can't see why they'd waste their time holding a vote and then trying to push or manipulate players into voting for the guy they want (but didn't want to outright name). So if they did that and Subban won, then what? Hide the results and pretend Max won? If the players felt Subban was their leader, I don't think they'd have cared what Therrien said and voted him anyway. In fact, if they felt Subban was their leader, Therrien saying the things he did about Subban would have probably pissed them off.

I can see why Subban would be an annoying dude sometimes, especially in a losing year. He has no off switch, it's endearing and it's why I (we) loved him, but in a year like 15-16 when EVERYTHING is going wrong to have a guy be that over the top and energetic, I could see it wearing on some of the guys who are having a harder time with all the losing. Subban is more geared for fan love and leading by example in a big game and Pacioretty is more geared to be respected by those in the hockey world, including the players in the room. I don't think they needed to fudge the numbers, it's a VERY unsurprising result. You can argue what it says about hockey culture, but it's totally unsurprising.

As for player vote or not, meh, it's not exactly a huge responsibility and the C doesn't change anything. Org can do what they want with the C at the end of the day, they could strip Pacioretty tomorrow if it makes things better. They don't need to have a vote, they don't need to have a captain, completely at their discretion. 

Sidenote: Pacioretty looks awwwwwwwful. Maybe put him back with Danault.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the argument that Subban was perhaps too "up" when they were losing all those games, but he did seem to put on his best effort every night.  He did make mistakes but those were partly because nobody was doing anything so he had to carry the puck so much.  Perhaps the other guys were more upset about losing after the game, but it would have been nice if they played like that during the game.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On most nights he is a non factor at best and a give away machine the rest of the time... because the team can’t hold a lead we need to trade him before the rest of the league figures out that his goals stats have been padded by empty netters, without those he is really only a 25ish goal scorer which is still good but not the class everyone thinks he is... just my two cents

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Habituallity said:

trade him before the rest of the league figures out that his goals stats have been padded by empty netters, without those he is really only a 25ish goal scorer which is still good but not the class everyone thinks he is... just my two cents

It may be your 2¢ but its factually incorrect.  From 2013 - 2017 Max scored 156 goals (good for 5th in the NHL) 13 were empty netters.  that means that 8.33% of his goals were empty netters. Goals are goals but if you really must separate them, in the past 4 years (since the lockout) he's scored 39, 37, 30, 35  so thats an "average" of 35 goals per year.  8% of that is less than 3 goals so even if we totally discount empty netters, he's a 32-33 goal scorer.   Thats still top 10 almost every year  - without counting any of his empty netters.

For what its worth, during the same span:
Ovechkin  219goals  7EN   
Pavelski 161 goals 7EN
Crosby 159 goals 9EN
Kane 159 goals  10EN
Pacioretty 156 goals 13EN
Tavares 151goals 11EN

If we take out all of Max' empty netters (and keep everyone else's) he is still top 10 in scoring in the past 5 years.  If you remove all empty net goals & dont count them, he ends up 7th overall in scoring in the league instead of 5th. 

So while he has higher percentages than the others around him, its not ridiculously higher and speaks more to the fact that guys like Ovechkin and Pavelski are rarely on the ice when the net is empty than the fact Patches is an overrated player.  Tavares scores less goals than patches and has almost the same percentage of empty netters. Wheeler scores 13% of his goals EN and Marchand is up a little above Patches at 9%

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, maas_art said:

It may be your 2¢ but its factually incorrect.  From 2013 - 2017 Max scored 156 goals (good for 5th in the NHL) 13 were empty netters.  that means that 8.33% of his goals were empty netters. Goals are goals but if you really must separate them, in the past 4 years (since the lockout) he's scored 39, 37, 30, 35  so thats an "average" of 35 goals per year.  8% of that is less than 3 goals so even if we totally discount empty netters, he's a 32-33 goal scorer.   Thats still top 10 almost every year  - without counting any of his empty netters.

For what its worth, during the same span:
Ovechkin  219goals  7EN   
Pavelski 161 goals 7EN
Crosby 159 goals 9EN
Kane 159 goals  10EN
Pacioretty 156 goals 13EN
Tavares 151goals 11EN

If we take out all of Max' empty netters (and keep everyone else's) he is still top 10 in scoring in the past 5 years.  If you remove all empty net goals & dont count them, he ends up 7th overall in scoring in the league instead of 5th. 

So while he has higher percentages than the others around him, its not ridiculously higher and speaks more to the fact that guys like Ovechkin and Pavelski are rarely on the ice when the net is empty than the fact Patches is an overrated player.  Tavares scores less goals than patches and has almost the same percentage of empty netters. Wheeler scores 13% of his goals EN and Marchand is up a little above Patches at 9%

 

 

Like you said some aren't on the ice for empty net goals because you always put your most trusted players on the ice when defending a lead. Also I might point out that when the other teams net is empty the other team doesn't just give away the puck to pad other teams stat.'s and end the game against themselves! It's wrong to discredit a players empty net goals because they are defending and on the ice against higher numbers usually. That would be like saying a players PP goals don't really count as much because your team had the advantage with man power sometimes 2 players. Actually and face off in the other teams zone to start. So by this players with a lot of or mostly PP goals are actually overrated. By this same logic the very best players must be those that score short handed when it's hardest to score outnumbered a goalie in net and face off in your own zone!. So Byron must be one of the very best in the league and highly underrated. Basically just because a goal is an empty net goal doesn't mean it's unearned. If Chucky or Subban lead the league in empty net goals I'm sure every goal would be a great effort goal!  So lets tell our players whomever just dump the puck in the corner NEVER take the empty netter because we can't respect you for that. (or is it only Patches we pick everything apart about)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did anyone read this article

http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/stu-cowan-smiles-and-optimism-in-habs-locker-room-sunday-morning

The more I read, the more my jaw dropped.  It was one offensive comment after another from this guy.  Just a few examples

1) making fun of the Grey Cup

2) saying that he didn't do well with Chucky and Drouin because they are both perimeter players.  He said he tried to drive to the net but it's not really his style

3) saying that the Chucky Drouin Byron line benefited from good matchups to explain why they carried the team Sat night

4) saying he is a perfectionist and playing in his own end like he had to so much lately makes it hard to cash in when he gets a scoring chance

OMG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't really seem all that bad to me.  He wasn't really making fun of the Grey Cup so much as saying that nobody on the team was watching, and as for the rest, was he wrong about any of it?  Saying that our offense-first line got good match-ups or that both he and Drouin are more perimeter players are both pretty true statements, to my mind.

Honestly for all the talk around here (that I also take part in) about how we miss Subban's personality and how Pacioretty is too milquetoast to be a captain, I really don't want to fault the guy for giving candid answers to questions.  Anything's better than "we played great and got the two points, we're working hard, it's all great".

Anyone remember years ago when he was quoted as saying he'd rather be back playing in the AHL than stuck languishing on the Habs' fourth line, since that wasn't his game?  He got a lot of flak for being entitled, and they sent him down to the AHL.  And then he came back to the NHL, played on the top lines, and the rest is history.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

other than he doesn't seem to be taking any responsibility while making a lot of excuses, combined with the fact that he isn't producing while the 1st line magically is producing without him, no, nothing at all.  How about the next time he goes in on a breakaway or a shootout he actually doesn't shoot it right at the goalie?  But then maybe it was the line matchups.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, kalevine said:

The more I read, the more my jaw dropped.  It was one offensive comment after another from this guy.  Just a few examples

1) making fun of the Grey Cup

2) saying that he didn't do well with Chucky and Drouin because they are both perimeter players.  He said he tried to drive to the net but it's not really his style

3) saying that the Chucky Drouin Byron line benefited from good matchups to explain why they carried the team Sat night

4) saying he is a perfectionist and playing in his own end like he had to so much lately makes it hard to cash in when he gets a scoring chance

Don't really have any issue with any of it or see why any of this is offensive. 

1) Who cares. I literally could not care about something any less than if an NHL team's captain watched the Grey Cup. 

2) He said he didn't do well with Galchenyuk and Drouin because all three of them are perimeter players. I don't really see how that's offensive or false, Pacioretty thinks 27/92 are better with Byron because he drives the net, while he thinks he's better with Shaw and Danault because they drive the net. I wholeheartedly agree and if I were the coach I'd run the exact same top 9 as we had against Buffalo on Saturday. 

3) Uh...they did have good matchups*? When looking at the chart it's clear that the Habs matched the Plekanec line and Alzner-Petry pairing against Eichel's line, and matched Pacioretty's line against the O'Reilly line (Buffalo's best defensive C). Drouin's line hardly played against Buffalo's best offensive center (Eichel) or defensive center (O'Reilly) at all. It's not a slight against the Drouin line, I'd much rather have Plekanec and Danault playing against Eichel and O'Reilly and let Drouin's line dominate Buffalo's 3rd line.

4) Well no that's not what he said at all. He said he prefers playing a more methodical and lower event game against better players instead of playing in a track meet and high event hockey against bad players. Drouin's line gets tons of shots and chances but they also give up lots of shots and chances. Danault's line doesn't produce as many shots but doesn't give up as many either. Again I have a hard time disagreeing with this, I would much rather have Galchenyuk-Drouin-Byron going back and forth on odd-man rushes and have Pacioretty-Danault-Shaw play more of a cycle game and have Pacioretty shoot lots while they hem the other team in their end. 

*That charts matchups for each team. The more blue on the squares the more the home team (MTL) carried the shots, the more red the more the away team (BUF) carried the shots. The deeper the colour the more shots took place in either direction. The size of the squares indicates the amount of time those players were matched up against each other. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kalevine said:

other than he doesn't seem to be taking any responsibility while making a lot of excuses, combined with the fact that he isn't producing while the 1st line magically is producing without him, no, nothing at all.  How about the next time he goes in on a breakaway or a shootout he actually doesn't shoot it right at the goalie?  But then maybe it was the line matchups.

he has more goals than anyone on the first line and he has more points than anyone on the first line except Drouin.  How is it a "fact" he isnt producing while they are?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a small samples size but yes it is a fact that as soon as moved him away from Drouin and Galchenyuk, that line combined for 2 of the 3 goals against Buffalo.  

He has more points than anyone on that line except Drouin is another way of saying he has fewer points than everyone on the first line except Galchenyuk I suppose.

No points in 6 games.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, kalevine said:

It's a small samples size but yes it is a fact that as soon as moved him away from Drouin and Galchenyuk, that line combined for 2 of the 3 goals against Buffalo.  

Unless you're talking about a period, yes a single game is about as small a sample size as one can get.  Kind of a riduculous argument when you're basing it as your reasoning against a guy who has scored more goals than all but 5 other players in the NHL over the past 5-6 years. 

He has more points than anyone on that line except Drouin is another way of saying he has fewer points than everyone on the first line except Galchenyuk I suppose.




Uh... what?  Pacioretty has 12 points.  Drouin 15. Galchenyuk 10 and Byron 9.   How does he have "fewer points than everyone on the first line except Galchenyuk" work?  

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Unless you're talking about a period, yes a single game is about as small a sample size as one can get.  Kind of a riduculous argument when you're basing it as your reasoning against a guy who has scored more goals than all but 5 other players in the NHL over the past 5-6 years. 

 



Uh... what?  Pacioretty has 12 points.  Drouin 15. Galchenyuk 10 and Byron 9.   How does he have "fewer points than everyone on the first line except Galchenyuk" work?  

 

 

 

I think I'm getting a sense of why this board has very few posters

One thing you might try is to listen to somebody's arguments as if they might actually have some validity, rather than ridicule them every chance you get.  Then you might find yourself having interesting discussions with people other than yourself and the three friends who agree with you.   For instance, yes it's just one game, but they were all in a multigame slump.  A change is made and suddenly Drouin and Galchenyuk are succeeding, while Max is making excuses like saying he is a perfectionist who doesn't handle periods in his own end very well.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, kalevine said:

I think I'm getting a sense of why this board has very few posters

One thing you might try is to listen to somebody's arguments as if they might actually have some validity, rather than ridicule them every chance you get.  Then you might find yourself having interesting discussions with people other than yourself and the three friends who agree with you.   For instance, yes it's just one game, but they were all in a multigame slump.  A change is made and suddenly Drouin and Galchenyuk are succeeding, while Max is making excuses like saying he is a perfectionist who doesn't handle periods in his own end very well.  

That's true, I believe we should be respectful of each other's opinions without intimidating our fellow fans and newcomers with sarcasm. We are all on the same side here although our opinions may vary as to what we believe the solution is to our team's woes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, kalevine said:

I think I'm getting a sense of why this board has very few posters

One thing you might try is to listen to somebody's arguments as if they might actually have some validity, rather than ridicule them every chance you get.  Then you might find yourself having interesting discussions with people other than yourself and the three friends who agree with you.   For instance, yes it's just one game, but they were all in a multigame slump.  A change is made and suddenly Drouin and Galchenyuk are succeeding, while Max is making excuses like saying he is a perfectionist who doesn't handle periods in his own end very well.  

Yes, start an argument, lose an argument - complain about the platform of the argument. Sounds about right.   The only person who came in here negative & guns-a-blazing was you.  Go back and read the thread. 


And when you say 'fact' but then you post inaccurate stats, expect to be called on it.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

That's true, I believe we should be respectful of each other's opinions without intimidating our fellow fans and newcomers with sarcasm. We are all on the same side here although our opinions may vary as to what we believe the solution is to our team's woes.

Totally agree. Opinions are always welcome - and no one was intimidating anyone. But if you say you've posted "fact" and then spout off complete inaccuracies - several times - you must expect to be corrected. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think your referring to Byron and Galchenyuk as being on the first line and having fewer points than Max is quite fair, given that both have spent a lot of the season on the 4th line, while Max has been on the first and second lines all year.  But note they have almost as many points in spite of that!    So you seem just as guilty as I in stating facts which don't hold up well to scrutiny.   Apparently my biggest mistake seems to be questioning your "facts" or their relevance to the argument.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, kalevine said:

I don't think your referring to Byron and Galchenyuk as being on the first line and having fewer points than Max is quite fair, given that both have spent a lot of the season on the 4th line, while Max has been on the first and second lines all year.  But note they have almost as many points in spite of that!    So you seem just as guilty as I in stating facts which don't hold up well to scrutiny.   Apparently my biggest mistake seems to be questioning your "facts" or their relevance to the argument.  

Right but you were the one who wanted to compare Max to the "first line" saying he wasnt producing. I never said Byron was a first line player simply that it was untrue he was not producing compare to them.  Heck on this team what is the first line anyway?

You cant set up a criteria to suit your needs. Max has plenty of faults of his own but this all stemmed from you trying to discredit him for some random soundbytes he made which were, in themselves, meaningless. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Unless you're talking about a period, yes a single game is about as small a sample size as one can get.  Kind of a riduculous argument when you're basing it as your reasoning against a guy who has scored more goals than all but 5 other players in the NHL over the past 5-6 years. 

 

Sure Patches has done well in the regular season ... my personal gripe with him is he is streaky and so far I'm very underwhelmed by his playoff performances.  10g in 38gp.  I've also never agreed with the decision to make him Captain and from everything I've read I hold him somewhat responsible for PK Subban being traded.   

And ... having said that ... a good goal scorer scores despite his linemates in most cases.    Patches comments about Drouin and Galchenyuk being perimeter players seems rather odd considering his best chemistry so far was with Desharnais ... another perimeter player.       It's not the first time I've heard Patches be picky with who he plays with and I stand by a comment I made in another thread.   I thin MB traded the wrong cancer on this team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎24 at 1:22 AM, maas_art said:

For what its worth, during the same span:
Ovechkin  219goals  7EN   
Pavelski 161 goals 7EN
Crosby 159 goals 9EN
Kane 159 goals  10EN
Pacioretty 156 goals 13EN
Tavares 151goals 11EN

Look at the list again,  if you could choose any 5 players from the list would patches be your choice?

He would not be mine. Do you know that of all the players you listed he was the only player with less then 300 points over that same span, he was also the only player with a shooting percentage below 12% 11.7%, Ovie was the other lowest at 12.7%. Even though he had the most open net goals his shooting % was still the lowest. 

He can score no doubt. But he is as one dimensional as Shea Weber. Both have a great skill set. And better then most. But the value lies in players that can do more than one thing. Ask most anyone who they would want Subban or Weber. Yes he is not as Physical or as (defensive but the gap is minimal), but he can skate and carry the puck and make players around him better, he can create his own scoring chances and create for others. 

Let someone else have the one dimentional player. If they can sell how good he is we should easily be able to get 2 or 3 upcoming stars in different positions. That would benefit us more. 

And as a captain  you don't talk about the failing points of your teammates, you talk about their strenghs and what you can add as a captain to make them better. :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, HabsAlways said:

Sure Patches has done well in the regular season ... my personal gripe with him is he is streaky and so far I'm very underwhelmed by his playoff performances.  10g in 38gp.  I've also never agreed with the decision to make him Captain and from everything I've read I hold him somewhat responsible for PK Subban being traded.   

I dont disagree.  He's never been a 'big game' player but presumably thats part of why he got the contract he did.  At $4.5m with an average of 35 goals a season for the last 5 years you really cant complain about the value he brings.  In terms of the C  - ive never been a fan of him as captain but honestly i have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.  It sure seems like he, plekanec and some of the old crowd had a hand in driving PK out of town, or at least making managment think he was a problem so they did something about it.

And ... having said that ... a good goal scorer scores despite his linemates in most cases.    Patches comments about Drouin and Galchenyuk being perimeter players seems rather odd considering his best chemistry so far was with Desharnais ... another perimeter player.       It's not the first time I've heard Patches be picky with who he plays with and I stand by a comment I made in another thread.   I thin MB traded the wrong cancer on this team.

I think - and perhaps this is just how im interpreting it - he's saying that for his line to be at its most effective, he is better with at least one player who goes to the net.  Now its shaw, it used to be Gallagher, it has been Cole.    If he plays with 2 other 'perimeter players' (which actually i think is the wrong description of AG and JD) then his line wont be as effective. He feels like having a 'mucker' on his line helps and he's probably right actually 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...