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#67 Max Pacioretty 2017-18


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7 minutes ago, Ravadak said:

Look at the list again,  if you could choose any 5 players from the list would patches be your choice?

He would not be mine. Do you know that of all the players you listed he was the only player with less then 300 points over that same span, he was also the only player with a shooting percentage below 12% 11.7%, Ovie was the other lowest at 12.7%. Even though he had the most open net goals his shooting % was still the lowest. 

He can score no doubt. But he is as one dimensional as Shea Weber. Both have a great skill set. And better then most. But the value lies in players that can do more than one thing. Ask most anyone who they would want Subban or Weber. Yes he is not as Physical or as (defensive but the gap is minimal), but he can skate and carry the puck and make players around him better, he can create his own scoring chances and create for others. 

Let someone else have the one dimentional player. If they can sell how good he is we should easily be able to get 2 or 3 upcoming stars in different positions. That would benefit us more. 

 

Thats not what we were talking about though.  The point was that his goal totals were inflated because he scored so many EN goals. I posted the stats showing that they really arent.

As ive said many many times before, Pacioretty has his faults. I have no problem trading him - and, in fact - if we are trading anyone on this roster HE is the guy i would move right now:   he plays a position we are actually strong at, he has 1 1/2 years left and then will require a huge raise and he's yet to show he's a big game player.   

But that doesnt change the fact that my post was directly related to him and his empty net goals being somehow "ridiculously high" which is untrue. 

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34 minutes ago, maas_art said:

 

I think - and perhaps this is just how im interpreting it - he's saying that for his line to be at its most effective, he is better with at least one player who goes to the net.  Now its shaw, it used to be Gallagher, it has been Cole.    If he plays with 2 other 'perimeter players' (which actually i think is the wrong description of AG and JD) then his line wont be as effective. He feels like having a 'mucker' on his line helps and he's probably right actually 

A fair enough assessment of his comment ... however, I dislike that he made the comment at all.    When you're struggling or in a dry spell you don't point fingers at the other 2 players on your line.   To me this just reinforces my impression that Patches is a prima dona and a bigger problem than Subban ever was or could have been.    He has no personal accountability it seems and consistently has some "excuse".     He's a good top 6 winger ... probably a 1st line winger on most teams.    But he is light years away from being the dominant offensive player that makes other teams sit up and notice.        To me he's your 3rd guy on the top line, not your top 2.

 

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36 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

A fair enough assessment of his comment ... however, I dislike that he made the comment at all.    When you're struggling or in a dry spell you don't point fingers at the other 2 players on your line.   To me this just reinforces my impression that Patches is a prima dona and a bigger problem than Subban ever was or could have been.    He has no personal accountability it seems and consistently has some "excuse".     He's a good top 6 winger ... probably a 1st line winger on most teams.    But he is light years away from being the dominant offensive player that makes other teams sit up and notice.        To me he's your 3rd guy on the top line, not your top 2.

 

this relates to what I have been trying to say.  The comments were inopportune and one just piled on top of the other, like excuses and sour grapes.  Who cares if the first line was getting the better matchups.  Why would he say that in an interview?  And, like I said, when he had those breakaways that he shot right into the goalie, was that also the matchups issue or was that Max the perfectionist trying too hard?  

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yes, start an argument, lose an argument - complain about the platform of the argument. Sounds about right.   The only person who came in here negative & guns-a-blazing was you.  Go back and read the thread. 


And when you say 'fact' but then you post inaccurate stats, expect to be called on it.  

 

I didn't "start an argument".  I made comments about Max's replies to the interviewer that I thought were shocking, and several people disagreed.  Of those who disagreed, only you were Edit.   Not sure where you think I lost the argument..  

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2 hours ago, Ravadak said:

 

Let someone else have the one dimentional player. If they can sell how good he is we should easily be able to get 2 or 3 upcoming stars in different positions. That would benefit us more. 

Im not a big fan  of MP ( I don't care either way ) but You wont get upcoming stars , you 'll get draft picks , prospects , young guys " with so called potential " .

And when players come to Montreal they usually don't meet their potential

 If they were sure  bet up coming stars teams wouldn't trade them unless they have Issues ( see Seguin and Subban )

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13 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Im not a big fan  of MP ( I don't care either way ) but You wont get upcoming stars , you 'll get draft picks , prospects , young guys " with so called potential " .

And when players come to Montreal they usually don't meet their potential

 If they were sure  bet up coming stars teams wouldn't trade them unless they have Issues ( see Seguin and Subban )

you get the most important thing of all. 9 million $ in cap space that could be used on a real star player

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8 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Taken off the top PP unit finally. 

Finally and deservedly. Apparently, he has no 5-on-4 goals in 50 games. His only PP goal in that span came 4-on-3. He hasn't produced there, and he might just be a big reason why our PP has struggled. I don't know that Byron is the answer there, nor do I think Shaw should be on the first wave. Right now, I think the first wave should be Drouin, AG, BG, Mete, and one of Weber/Petry.

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1 hour ago, ramcharger440 said:

Wonder what it is going to take to get him going.

He's almost always been a 'second half' player.  Right now he's on pace for 23g 23a and 46 points.  I suspect that as the season goes on, he'll get on a hot streak and score at a much higher clip & end up with 35+ goals.  I am curious if it will be with this club though since (as has been outlined a few times) we have a plethora of LW and could probably trade him for 2 players (#2c and #1LD) to fill much more pressing needs.  Plus there's that looming contract in a year and a half...

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interestingly a few commentators in the media seem to think he's more likely to be traded than AG.  

The thinking is that MB would trade Galchenyuk for the right player(s) but that he hasnt had the offers & will not undervalue him (thank goodness).  Pacioretty, despite his slow start, is believed to still have a lot of value.  

If MB can land a top 2 centre and a top 4 defenseman (even one on an expiring contract) the thought is that he may well do so & then move Drouin back to the vacated LW spot.  

The problem is that there arent a lot of teams who could offer roster players that actually need Pacioretty.   MIght have to be a 3 way deal. Edmonton could offer up the players but they would be more interested in a steady defenseman than a scoring winger. 

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50 minutes ago, maas_art said:

interestingly a few commentators in the media seem to think he's more likely to be traded than AG.  

The thinking is that MB would trade Galchenyuk for the right player(s) but that he hasnt had the offers & will not undervalue him (thank goodness).  Pacioretty, despite his slow start, is believed to still have a lot of value.  

If MB can land a top 2 centre and a top 4 defenseman (even one on an expiring contract) the thought is that he may well do so & then move Drouin back to the vacated LW spot.  

The problem is that there arent a lot of teams who could offer roster players that actually need Pacioretty.   MIght have to be a 3 way deal. Edmonton could offer up the players but they would be more interested in a steady defenseman than a scoring winger. 

Pittsburgh! We could get Tinordi back! :ph34r:

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

Pittsburgh! We could get Tinordi back! :ph34r:

Haha.  Too bad they dont really have what we need, because im sure they would jump at the chance to get Patches.   Bergevin could probably land Letang +  for him but Letang is so fragile it would be a big risk.  The bigger issue is that their +  Would likely be a prospect winger because, like us, they dont really have any great centre prospects in their system.  Unlike us, they do already have 2 of the 4 or 5 best centres in the league on their roster though ;)

Maybe MB could do some voodoo magic:

Pacioretty + Alzner + a 4th rounder (gotta give a little :P)
for
Malkin + Letang   :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

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All stats are dated back from 2011-Present

1.) Pacioretty is 5th in league scoring. Ovechkin(280) Stamkos(215) Tavares(201) Pavelski (199) Pacioretty (197).

2.) Pacioretty is 2nd in the league in GWG. Ovechkin (47) Pacioretty (42)

3.) Pacioretty is 2nd in the league in SOG. Ovechkin (2,175) Pacioretty (1,729)

4.) Pacioretty is 2nd in the league in even-strength goals. Ovechkin (160) Pacioretty (147)

5.) Of Pacioretty's 197 goals, there were 335 associated teammate assists. Of those 335 assists, 228 of them (68%) came from a player who has since been traded away from MTL.

6.) Between 2011-2016, Pacioretty's shooting % was 11.9%. So far this season it is 5.8%

7.) Between 2011-2016, Pacioretty averaged 3.63 shots per game. So far this season his average is 4.03 shots per game.

8.) Combined, Pacioretty has averaged 3.66 shots per game, ranking 4th. Ovechkin(4.52) E.Kane (3.90) Kovalchuk (3.80)

9.) So far this season, two players on MTL have more than 1 assist to Pacioretty Weber (2) Petry (2).

10.) Of Pacioretty's 197 goals, only 6 of them have been unassisted.

These statistics are extremely eye-opening to me. Pacioretty has been an absolute rock star for us for so long. He's been a lock for 30 goals a year and has put up numbers surpassing the likes of Crosby, Kane, Kessel, etc etc. These numbers tell me two important pieces of information. Pacioretty's helpers have not been there this season. As a result, the statistics show that he is trying to over-compensate by shooting more. This is just my opinion, but point #5 concerns me the most. We've completely stripped him of his support-cast, and are now left wondering why he isn't producing. He has a whopping 6 unassisted goals, it adds up imo; he needs those playmakers that can put him in a good scoring position.

What are your thoughts? Is it his fault?

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1 hour ago, loyalhabsfan said:

All stats are dated back from 2011-Present

1.) Pacioretty is 5th in league scoring. Ovechkin(280) Stamkos(215) Tavares(201) Pavelski (199) Pacioretty (197).

2.) Pacioretty is 2nd in the league in GWG. Ovechkin (47) Pacioretty (42)

3.) Pacioretty is 2nd in the league in SOG. Ovechkin (2,175) Pacioretty (1,729)

4.) Pacioretty is 2nd in the league in even-strength goals. Ovechkin (160) Pacioretty (147)

5.) Of Pacioretty's 197 goals, there were 335 associated teammate assists. Of those 335 assists, 228 of them (68%) came from a player who has since been traded away from MTL.

6.) Between 2011-2016, Pacioretty's shooting % was 11.9%. So far this season it is 5.8%

7.) Between 2011-2016, Pacioretty averaged 3.63 shots per game. So far this season his average is 4.03 shots per game.

8.) Combined, Pacioretty has averaged 3.66 shots per game, ranking 4th. Ovechkin(4.52) E.Kane (3.90) Kovalchuk (3.80)

9.) So far this season, two players on MTL have more than 1 assist to Pacioretty Weber (2) Petry (2).

10.) Of Pacioretty's 197 goals, only 6 of them have been unassisted.

These statistics are extremely eye-opening to me. Pacioretty has been an absolute rock star for us for so long. He's been a lock for 30 goals a year and has put up numbers surpassing the likes of Crosby, Kane, Kessel, etc etc. These numbers tell me two important pieces of information. Pacioretty's helpers have not been there this season. As a result, the statistics show that he is trying to over-compensate by shooting more. This is just my opinion, but point #5 concerns me the most. We've completely stripped him of his support-cast, and are now left wondering why he isn't producing. He has a whopping 6 unassisted goals, it adds up imo; he needs those playmakers that can put him in a good scoring position.

What are your thoughts? Is it his fault?

Could be part of MB's master plan to have his stats nosedive this season so he can renegotiate one of his bargain bin deals. That or he just wants to lower his trade value so he has an excuse when he gets close to nothing for him. :rolleyes:

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^^ Some of it is Pacioretty's fault, yes. We've seen him whiff on quite a few great scoring chances or put pucks directly into the goalie. That being said, it was clear before the season started that our D corps was going to be completely insufficient at moving pucks up to our offence to create scoring off the rush. I posted elsewhere that a lot of the forwards who are scoring at rates we'd expect are players like Gallagher, Shaw, Danault, etc. who create much of their offence via the forecheck and sustained in-zone pressure. Players like Pacioretty are more adept at scoring off the rush, and that just hasn't happened as much this year. So yeah, that's part of it that's on Marc Bergevin. Pacioretty has also always has more success when he has a right winger who drives the net with the puck. He did really well with Erik Cole. He did well with Radulov. This year, he's spent time with the likes of Shaw and Lehkonen and Galchenyuk on the other side... the former is not much of a puck carrier, the latter two are not guys who really drive at the defence. So he hasn't really had that complementary winger on the other side either. As for his shooting percentage, it's clear he's taking as many shots as he usually did, even more, but my gestalt from watching him is that his shot quality has dropped off. He's just shooting the puck from wherever he can, often just after he breaks into the zone and from the wide part of the ice. I think he's simply just trying to throw pucks on net to see if something goes in, but it's not working out as well.

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