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#67 Max Pacioretty 2017-18


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On 12/27/2017 at 9:47 PM, kinot-2 said:

Won't get much for him in a trade right now. 

 

11 hours ago, jwlk said:

He's still got tons of value on his contract, Just this system is not working with the players on the roster

Dreger and Friedmann and a bunch of others have all stated that Pacioretty would have a ton of value on the market. I think Dreger's words were something along the line of "even if he's having a down year, teams will pay 100 cents on the dollar to get Pacioretty. The Habs will get full value for him. Just about every American team wants him and every GM feels like a change of scenery would be enough to get him back to his previous goal-scoring status."

So I don't think we need to worry... he's a proven commodity, he's still close to his prime, and he's on a bargain contract with no long-term commitment. Ideal trade chip, as long as we do it now and don't wait until he's signed an extension for 8M a year.

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Dreger and Friedmann and a bunch of others have all stated that Pacioretty would have a ton of value on the market. I think Dreger's words were something along the line of "even if he's having a down year, teams will pay 100 cents on the dollar to get Pacioretty. The Habs will get full value for him. Just about every American team wants him and every GM feels like a change of scenery would be enough to get him back to his previous goal-scoring status."

So I don't think we need to worry... he's a proven commodity, he's still close to his prime, and he's on a bargain contract with no long-term commitment. Ideal trade chip, as long as we do it now and don't wait until he's signed an extension for 8M a year.

The problem is the tool making the trade! not the sharpest chisel in the box!

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27 minutes ago, ramcharger440 said:

The problem is the tool making the trade! not the sharpest chisel in the box!

Right. One of the suggestions from the TSN insiders was that Mtl had a lot of interest in Letang and that MB might consider a Pacioretty for Letang move. Once again, we'd be getting the older, less healthy player on a worse contract. But that's Bergevin for you. It would be a very short-sighted and frankly idiotic move. I don't think the Pens have much to offer us in trade return personally. I'd much rather deal with teams like the Isles, Oilers, Flames, Leafs, Flyers, Devils, Stars, etc. who have top-tier prospects to offer back. Teams like the Pens and Rangers have depleted a lot of their prospect pool and I don't see much of interest to take back from them. Certainly not Letang. If we're taking on Letang's contract, it's because they're taking Alzner back or because they're taking Weber and giving us more than Letang.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Pacioretty for Letang move. It would be a very short-sighted and frankly idiotic move. 

Hard disagree here. Letang is 30 and has a very reasonable contract (4Y/7.25M). Pacioretty is 29 and either needs to be traded or will be signed to something like 7.5M for 7-8 years. It's not like Letang is another Weber that's declining and signed forever, he's an elite defender signed from age 30-34 at a reasonable cap hit.

Letang for Pacioretty is the kind of move that might reopen the Habs' cup window, Letang-Weber-Petry is a really good core to build a defense around. Obviously losing Pacioretty from a team that struggles to score would be an issue but Letang is a big net improvement IMO. He's not Subban but he's one of a handful of guys on the planet that are in that discussion.

To me the Habs have two paths right now. Either moving on from the Pacioretty/Price/Weber core and retooling, or doubling down and trying to win while Price is still Price and Weber's still solid. It's fine if you think the better path is rebuilding but if you can add Letang to a team with a still near-prime Price, Petry, and Weber I don't think that's an idiotic move and it puts you a 1C away instead of a 1C and 1D away.

I also don't think it's so obviously cut and dried that the Habs should do a full scorched earth rebuild. Blowing the team up and getting tons of high picks and futures for Weber/Price/Pacioretty is tempting but by the time that rebuild starts to bear fruit your younger core of Drouin/Galchenyuk/Gallagher are all going to be pushing 30 and need new contracts and you're just back in the same situation. 

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4 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Hard disagree here. Letang is 30 and has a very reasonable contract (4Y/7.25M). Pacioretty is 29 and either needs to be traded or will be signed to something like 7.5M for 7-8 years. It's not like Letang is another Weber that's declining and signed forever, he's an elite defender signed from age 30-34 at a reasonable cap hit.

Letang for Pacioretty is the kind of move that might reopen the Habs' cup window, Letang-Weber-Petry is a really good core to build a defense around. Obviously losing Pacioretty from a team that struggles to score would be an issue but Letang is a big net improvement IMO. He's not Subban but he's one of a handful of guys on the planet that are in that discussion.

To me the Habs have two paths right now. Either moving on from the Pacioretty/Price/Weber core and retooling, or doubling down and trying to win while Price is still Price and Weber's still solid. It's fine if you think the better path is rebuilding but if you can add Letang to a team with a still near-prime Price, Petry, and Weber I don't think that's an idiotic move and it puts you a 1C away instead of a 1C and 1D away.

I also don't think it's so obviously cut and dried that the Habs should do a full scorched earth rebuild. Blowing the team up and getting tons of high picks and futures for Weber/Price/Pacioretty is tempting but by the time that rebuild starts to bear fruit your younger core of Drouin/Galchenyuk/Gallagher are all going to be pushing 30 and need new contracts and you're just back in the same situation. 

Letang is a guy who gets injured a lot. He's had some really serious health issues, and I just don't see him ageing well. There's a reason Pittsburgh thinks they can move on from him. To me, grabbing guys who are 30-34 is not a great move. In today's NHL, with the speed of the game, the wear on the players with time, and the cap, players are hitting prime and becoming more important to their teams at earlier ages. Prime for forwards is now probably something like 21-24. Prime for D men is probably somewhere like 24-27.

Why do I see that potential trade as idiotic? Well for one, I'm not convinced the current core can win as is. I don't think swapping Pacman for Letang fixes that. Sure, you get a guy who's a top pairing D now, but for how long? Weber was sold to us as a #1 D man, but while he's still very good and an excellent powerplay asset, the numbers also suggest he's slowed down quite a bit, and he's not a guy you can throw out with just any partner. Markov hit a decline in his early 30's and he learned how to adapt, but he wasn't a #1 or probably even #2 guy for the past few years. Hamrlik hit decline. And maybe the best example would be Tomas Kaberle, who like Letang, was really one of the top D men in the game for a long time with a similar skillset. But he hit a wall and his game just dropped off because he couldn't keep up with the speed any more. That happened around 30-32.

So I look at Pacioretty, and I don't see lots of value in signing him for 7 years at 7-8M a season, which is what I think he'll get on the open market. But I do see him as having a pretty high trade value, which is something a lot of the insiders are saying too. So I'm comparing a Letang trade (where we get the older player on the worse contract now) to other potential deals we could make. Could you ask for Bennett and Vilimaki from Calgary? Could you ask for Beauvillier, a 1st, and a good prospect from the Isles? You might not get as proven a commodity, but I think you could get 2-3 blue chip assets who are 19-23 years old and potentially fill both your 1C and top pairing D holes with one trade, albeit on a gamble. We got Pacioretty via a trade where we dealt an ageing asset for a 1st rounder. That's how other teams have traded for the likes of Iginla, Seguin, etc. at a young age and found stars. No one's dealing us Stamkos or McDavid in their prime, so if you want to find star pieces, you use a great asset like Pacioretty to find top-tier prospects and high picks. I floated the idea of dealing Pacman for Barzal plus before the season. Too late now. But that's the type of trade you look at that can maybe land you a great player for years to come.

Comparatively, dealing for Letang doesn't make sense to me. Sure you fill the D hole, but there's risk there too that Letang gets hurt again or that he simply declines (which is more likely). And you STILL have to fill your 1C and 2C slots and you now have to do it without having Pacioretty as a trade asset. And if your core is Price, Petry, Weber, Letang, then you are frankly on a tight clock to fill all those other holes quickly. So are you then also dealing Drouin or Galchenyuk to find a true 1C? Are you trading a couple of 1st rounders to make that happen? I just don't think we have enough assets in our organization now to be able to patch all our holes, so I think the best approach is to deal the veteran assets we do have (Pac, Weber, maybe Petry or Price or so on) and try to build up enough younger, cheaper assets with high ceilings so that we can take a real shot in 2-3 years. I don't think a re-build has to be long nor a full roster change. We have plenty of useful young assets... AG, JD, Gallagher, Lehkonen, Hudon, Danault, Mete, Jerabek, Lindgren... I think you can work all those guys in. So now go out and find young blue chippers who can become top 6 forwards or top 3 D men. Again, it doesn't take that long to develop younger guys and get them into their prime. This makes a lot more sense to me than dealing your best trade asset for another past-prime player on a big contract, when the odds of winning this year are nil and next year are slim without 2-3 other major changes and few assets to make those happen.

 

 

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I do feel bad for Pacioretty. He clearly cares and wants to make this better. But how many times can he give the same interview? Seems like every game he's talking about how it's been hard and how he feels responsible and how the team needs to work hard and do the little things right, etc.

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1 minute ago, BigTed3 said:

I do feel bad for Pacioretty. He clearly cares and wants to make this better. But how many times can he give the same interview? Seems like every game he's talking about how it's been hard and how he feels responsible and how the team needs to work hard and do the little things right, etc.

I screamed at my TV "Maybe you should have gotten along with PK you prima donna"

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Max - you need a couple of REAL Centres and a couple of REAL D men

You got wingers playin C  , and 3 rd , 4 th line C playing 1 st and 2 n line

and your D is atrocious

Work hard and do the little things right aint gonna do anything .

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40 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Considering Nashville had to shutup PK during last years playoffs and did consider trading him before Ellis got hurt....you don't think 'maybe' IT WAS PK being PK !

And you have sources for these assertions, right?

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40 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

And you have sources for these assertions, right?

I don't know if he does, but I am aware of what he's referring to. I didn't look for anything on the trade speculation, but I think it occurred in the beginning of the season. Here is a source of Nashville silencing pk. http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/nhl/predators/2017/06/11/barry-melrose-predators-hypocritical-silencing-p-k-subban/387844001/

 

 

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14 minutes ago, ThinkOutsidethebox said:

I don't know if he does, but I am aware of what he's referring to. I didn't look for anything on the trade speculation, but I think it occurred in the beginning of the season. Here is a source of Nashville silencing pk. http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/nhl/predators/2017/06/11/barry-melrose-predators-hypocritical-silencing-p-k-subban/387844001/

 

 

read that article and to me it doesn't sound like Nashville had any issues with PK, they just weren't making him available to the media.     There's no context in that article other than Barry Melrose whining that the Preds weren't making him available.

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29 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

read that article and to me it doesn't sound like Nashville had any issues with PK, they just weren't making him available to the media.     There's no context in that article other than Barry Melrose whining that the Preds weren't making him available.

like i said in the other thread.....if half the team hated him you trade that half of the team including nonfactoretty if he was in the mix

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10 hours ago, jeff33 said:

like i said in the other thread.....if half the team hated him you trade that half of the team including nonfactoretty if he was in the mix

Yup totally on the same page as you.       In the end I think it came down to PK Subban and 2 guys in the room.    Max and Pleks.     Both of which are more easily replaceable than an elite dman like PK

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11 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

read that article and to me it doesn't sound like Nashville had any issues with PK, they just weren't making him available to the media.     There's no context in that article other than Barry Melrose whining that the Preds weren't making him available.

It actually came during the playoffs. It happened in the finals when he started yapping at Crosby who had been silent until Subban stirred him up. It was reported during a US broadcast game that an interview that had been scheduled the team said Subban wasn't to be interviewed at that point on (final two games) It was also reported in local news paper and TV and "Hockey Feed.com" that the coach and "other' players were upset with him. Not his first time against Tampa ranted on about how Bishop was just lucky who then outplayed Price and his team (Tampa) rallied behind him. My niece now lives in Nashville and still keeps up on hockey. He wasn't given the Captaincy there this year when available either? He went in the second round partly because of perceived attitude issues. Babcock during the Olympics said "players" need to check their ego at the door. He wasn't a Subban fan. If it was a once off it would be one thing but when over his career and several coaches? Then maybe it's the individual. He's dynamic he's done great community work, but that doesn't mean his "big" personality doesn't have it's own issues. No one player wins the cup it does have to be a "team" not a bunch of individuals. It was before Ellis got hurt that Nashville did consider trading Subban but Colorado wanted Subban plus for Duchene. Which Nashville wasn't going to do. It was Subban as the offer though not their other defenseman. I also have not seen any report anywhere about it being Max and Pleks the only ones that had issues with Subban. That also is just speculation by the Subban fans. It was a team vote not two players who voted for the Captain of the team.   

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4 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

 Babcock during the Olympics said "players" need to check their ego at the door. He wasn't a Subban fan. If it was a once off it would be one thing but when over his career and several coaches? Then maybe it's the individual. 

First, the whole Nashville drama ... I did an extensive google search, went to their forums etc etc ... and this was a non-story.      Nashville, their management and coaches seem to have no issues with PK.    The fans are a mixed reaction mostly because he's making 9m and somwhat under performing in their eyes (he's anchored to Emelin lol). 

Babcock and "several other coaches" ...  yeah old school and white.     You look around the league and see the exact same personality as PK Subban and the Hockey establishment (coaches, media, pundits) don't rag on them ... they celebrate them.     And then there's the Darren Pang clip of him talking about why Pieterangelo belonged on that Olympic team over PK. 

"Alex Pietrangelo also representing Canada is also 21 year old, first round pick and he does everything on the ice, off the ice, THE WHITE WAY, the right way and he endears himself to his teammates because of that. You almost feel bad for “P. K.” cause he’s got a lot of personality but its time to settle things down a little bit and play hockey and be a pro." - Darren Pang

Most so easily dismiss this as a slip of the tongue, a mental fart ... but to me that was just the proof in the pudding that the establishments true problems with PK Subban had nothing to do with his personality but rather the colour of his skin.    They hypocritically praise some players while berating PK for the same or similar behaviour.    I vividly remember a playoff year where PK Subban had a give away that cost the Canadians the game.     The all white commentators on english media, pundits and analysts spent 30 minutes going over how PK Subban was terrible, how he was too high a risk to have out there late in a tight game, how he was a defensive liability (despite evidence to the contrary).      Clip after clip of PK mistakes from the season.

Flip to the LA Kings series and Drew Doughty makes the identical mistake, play for play, that costs the Kings their game.     The media and pundits ... "thats the type of mistake, that you watch, next game Doughty will have a huge game" (he didnt) ... and it was almost embarassing how they fawned over how incredibly awesome Drew Doughty was and lets show all the GOOD plays he made that game ... and no this wasn't an American station, it was still TSN/Sportsnet/CBC.     

Or any Ottawa vs MTL game ... where regardless of how defenisvely poor Karlsson was playing he was a demi-god and PK Subban was a risk.

 

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So, to answer my own question... No you don't have any sources, only conjecture and speculation. Okay.

21 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

He went in the second round partly because of perceived attitude issues.

How about for this one?

21 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

It was before Ellis got hurt that Nashville did consider trading Subban but Colorado wanted Subban plus for Duchene.

Still.

21 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I also have not seen any report anywhere about it being Max and Pleks the only ones that had issues with Subban. That also is just speculation by the Subban fans.

?

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32 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

How about for this one?

Friedmann wrote something about rumors of a potential Duchene-Subban deal, but afaik there was never any talk about Subban not being enough, which would have been a huge ask for a player like Duchene... and after reading Friedmann's piece I really doubt it:

In fact, a couple of players said they heard this summer about rumours of a Duchene for PK Subban deal. Neither GM would comment, but before everyone goes insane, let’s go through a couple things. First, with Ryan Ellis out until Christmas, the Predators are not dealing any of their other elite defenders. Second, from what I understand, it’s entirely possible Colorado inquired about all four of Ellis, Subban, Mattias Ekholm and Roman Josi. It’s Nashville’s biggest strength, and you can’t blame the Avalanche for asking. Asking, however, is a lot different than acquiring. The defending Western Conference champions won’t gut themselves to get him.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-making-sense-matt-duchenes-situation/

 

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46 minutes ago, habs_93 said:

So, to answer my own question... No you don't have any sources, only conjecture and speculation. Okay.

How about for this one?

Still.

?

Well Hockeyfeed.com is one source that is easily googled. (everyone can choose to believe whatever source they want as each does..so many well so and so said it like than it didn't matter because it's a source they don't like, but then gets posted when it's something they agree with) George Laroche (wrong spelling) along with another reported about the issues (and yes he's even black but for those that think it's a racial issue) Even scouting when he was drafted noted he had "attitude" issues probably why he went second round not first. During an NHL broadcast it was reported also when he was all of a sudden not made available for an interview that had been scheduled during intermission. It was the US NHL TV Network that had reported the trade rumors about Subban for Duchene , but that Colorado had wanted Subban plus and Nashville didn't agree than Ellis needed surgery and then Subban was off the table. The exact date and whom said it I don't remember but I watch the US NHL Network everyday, and listen too XM Radio NHL Network whom has several ex NHL players and coaches and gm's and analysis on everyday all the time. Both great Networks for News and Information. Do I write down or record everything when I hear it no , a lot of time I'm driving. I actually think that may be the reason that this forum even has a section called "Rumors" not facts!  It was also reported locally (which google doesn't always have local news especially when it's in a market that hockey doesn't make much news in June!) It doesn't make him a bad player but to say he's never had an issue or been the cause when over his career from several coaches & GM's "old school " or not either not choose him or make comments well where there's smoke there's fire. Of course I know people like Babcock (how many on this forum wanted him as coach?) are just jealous or prejudice is a ridicules claim also. Either way it's called "hindsight" for a reason! It's in the past! Also has anybody ever thought that if your coach GM owner don't want someone outspoken or not playing their system or way that the player can adjust? It may not be the way the fans would want it , but the player actually works for the coach/GM/Owner and what they want (even if we disagree) is what they're supposed to do. Try not doing what your boss wants even if you disagree.

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7 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

George Laroche (wrong spelling)

Not even close to credible.

7 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

(and yes he's even black but for those that think it's a racial issue)

What does this mean?

8 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Even scouting when he was drafted noted he had "attitude" issues probably why he went second round not first.

Again: Do you have an actual source for this or not?

 

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