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2017-18 The Rumors Thread


BigTed3
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17 minutes ago, habsisme said:

in terms of point production, Pacioretty is clearly better. Also better contract, one more on an amazing deal. I honestly think that there are a bunch of teams that want him, there has to be. He is the best player available. Only issue is he didn't have the best season THIS YEAR (still better than Nash) and he's a winger (so is Nash) and I think smart GMs value Centers and Dmen much more than wingers. 

actually i think the only issue is whether MB is willing to trade him or not.  Im still not sold he will. 

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19 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Pacioretty may be younger but he's not better than Nash.

 

13 minutes ago, habsisme said:

in terms of point production, Pacioretty is clearly better. Also better contract, one more on an amazing deal. I honestly think that there are a bunch of teams that want him, there has to be. He is the best player available. Only issue is he didn't have the best season THIS YEAR (still better than Nash) and he's a winger (so is Nash) and I think smart GMs value Centers and Dmen much more than wingers. 

We're not talking about prime Rick Nash here. Rick Nash in the past couple of years has had worse production than Ryan Spooner, never mind Max Pacioretty, who has blown him out of the water the past couple of seasons.

I also think there will be a ton of potential suitors for MP. If you believe the rumors, so far we've heard about LA, Ana, SJ, Dal, Stl, Fla, NYI, NYR, and Nas all having interest, and there are likely more teams we haven't heard about. Given the market that's been set, the haul for Pacioretty should be huge.

I think the best clues are to follow the scouts. Mtl was heavily scouting Tor and Wpg, and those ended up being two of the key suitors for Plekanec. We also know Mtl has been heavily scouting SJ, Min, and the Isles. I know Minnesota has said they won't give up a 1st rounder in a trade, and they're rumored to be interested in Galchenyuk, not Pacioretty. But I still wonder about a possible Galchenyuk for Brodin based deal, which would not be good for us. If it's Pacioretty they're discussing, then Eriksson-Ek has to be the key piece coming back. No matter what, MB should have options and because MP isn't a UFA this summer, MB really controls the timing of a trade and should be able to demand a king's ransom.

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Ilya Kovalchuk has told Russian reporters he plans to leave the KHL and return to the NHL next season. He will be a full-fledged UFA this time around, no more dealing through NJ to get his rights. Doesn't really gel with our current situation, BUT we do have cap space... so IF you can sign Tavares (big if), then maybe he's a guy you entice to come along and then suddenly your top 6-9 is very different and fairly strong...

Drouin-Tavares-Kovalchuk

Hudon-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

Lehkonen-Danault-Shaw

Scherbak-Byron-Carr

... assuming MP traded of course but once again emphasizing that Habs need to deal wingers to get centers and LHD.

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Rumblings that Stl, who had previously said they wouldn't include Robert Thomas in a trade, may now be budging slightly on this. You have to wonder how much the "Thomas is untouchable" statement is real and how much is to try and boost his value in a trade... essentially a game of chicken, as to whether MB lowers his price on Pacioretty or Ottawa on Karlsson to make a deal happen or whether they hold firm. In any case, Stl down 3-0 to Nas right now and on their way to a 6th straight loss. They have a California road trip coming up soon. So in a season where they could challenge for a Cup, they're starting to see things slip away. That team absolutely needs to make a move to save their season, and Pacioretty is likely the best fit of any potentially available player.

Again, I think MB has got all the leverage here. MP's contract isn't expiring. MB has other potential suitors here. There really aren't a lot of elite goal scoring wingers available... Kane isn't as consistent and has questions about personality/off-ice problems. Hoffman isn't clearly on the market. And Nash is already gone. So if I'm MB, I'd say to Stl,, you're our first choice, we want Thomas, but if you're not prepared to do that, then we'll go elsewhere to get our center prospect. A B level prospect isn't good enough. A non-center prospect isn't good enough. Any deal HAS to include Thomas and another prospect and a 1st... and given Stl has already dealt their 1st rounder from this year, then I'd say it becomes a 2019 1st or else that piece becomes the most 1st-round equivalent you have, which is Kyrou too. That's a tough ask for Stl, but as I said, MB is in the position of power here and Stl is fading and now has its back against the wall. A good GM would pounce on them for their desperation right now. Maybe you settle for Thomas and Kyrou alone. Maybe you settle for Thomas, Barbashev, and Dunn. Maybe you settle for Thomas, Dunn, and a 2nd. I don't know. But if there's even a glimmer of hope that Stl bites on Thomas being on the table now, you have to make that work somehow. Otherwise, move on to working on Vilardi or Necar or so on.

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18 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Rumblings that Stl, who had previously said they wouldn't include Robert Thomas in a trade, may now be budging slightly on this. You have to wonder how much the "Thomas is untouchable" statement is real and how much is to try and boost his value in a trade... essentially a game of chicken, as to whether MB lowers his price on Pacioretty or Ottawa on Karlsson to make a deal happen or whether they hold firm. In any case, Stl down 3-0 to Nas right now and on their way to a 6th straight loss. They have a California road trip coming up soon. So in a season where they could challenge for a Cup, they're starting to see things slip away. That team absolutely needs to make a move to save their season, and Pacioretty is likely the best fit of any potentially available player.

For sure.  "Thomas is untouchable" may simply be trying to bring Bergevin down from his ask (say, Thomas, Dunn and a pick) to just (Thomas + Pick) because "hey, he was untouchable.."

 

I agree about St Louis. You could really swing for the fences with them too - include a couple of complimentary pieces like Benn or similar & possibly come away with several pieces + Thomas. 

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1 minute ago, maas_art said:

For sure.  "Thomas is untouchable" may simply be trying to bring Bergevin down from his ask (say, Thomas, Dunn and a pick) to just (Thomas + Pick) because "hey, he was untouchable.."

 

I agree about St Louis. You could really swing for the fences with them too - include a couple of complimentary pieces like Benn or similar & possibly come away with several pieces + Thomas. 

I like that idea, Benn, and Byron too, could be nice complimentary pieces for a team like STL

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Good posts, it sure does seem like STL and MTL can help each other out (BT3).  

STL get assets they need to bolster for a Cup run in the short term, and MTL get assets for the long run.

If it takes a few other bits to make it go (maas_art) then fine, just come out with that 1C.

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10 hours ago, Windoe said:

Good posts, it sure does seem like STL and MTL can help each other out (BT3).  

STL get assets they need to bolster for a Cup run in the short term, and MTL get assets for the long run.

If it takes a few other bits to make it go (maas_art) then fine, just come out with that 1C.

There theoretically should be a fit. Word around the NHL is that Doug Armstrong is very reluctant to part with prospects and has already traded his 1st's from last year and this year. But that said, look at his team: Tarasenko is 26, which is fine, but Bouwmeester is 34, Steen is 33, Stastny is 32, Sobotka 30, Berglund 29, Pietrangelo 28, Jake Allen is 27... yes they have good prospects coming up through the pipeline as well, but a large chunk of that core is at or past prime. If Armstrong isn't going all in at a time when they're competitive, then what is he waiting for? Either you're a buyer or a seller, but the worst thing you can do is what the Habs did and run through the prime years of its core without giving them the needed parts to be a Cup challenger. It would be a mistake for St. Louis to do the same with the number of skill players they have on the roster.

So maybe Armstrong feels really strongly about not trading Thomas, but by the time Thomas and Kyrou are good, regular NHL players, that's at least 2-3 years away and then your best defender is on the wrong side of 30 and half your current line-up is no longer as good. Pacioretty is really an ideal fit for them because it helps them immediately, yet he's also there on a reasonable contract next season, when you'd expect St. Louis to remain competitive.

i wonder if adding Price in to the mix would change Armstrong's mind... Stl has had average goaltending but nothing to write home about. But if you offer them Pacioretty AND Price, does that make it easier for Armstrong to go all in? Is he more willing to part with prospects at that point? It might hurt us in terms of value to deal both guys together, but ask them for all their best futures in exchange for our best players now...

Pacioretty, Price, and Benn to St. Louis

for

Robert Thomas

Jordan Kyrou

Vince Dunn

Ivan Barbashev

Jake Allen

2019 1st rounder

 

Worth a shot?

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Its a quiet time in rumourland so Eklund of course has to come up with something very salacious. He suggests that the kings are going to make a huge push for Karlsson at hte draft and will trade Doughty to make room.  Of course we are linked to being interested in Doughty.  

Obviously this is probably all hogwash, but just to play along:

- it seems crazy that LA would let one of the 5 best dmen in the league go, so they can acquire a different top 5 dman.  Albeit i think most of us would put Karlsson ahead of Doughty but not my much. We're talking about two elite players here.  Doughty is 6 months younger than Karlsson so its not an age thing. 

- if we were indeed interested in him, we'd have to move one of Weber or Petry since all 3 of them shoot right. Does LA want Weber? Probably not. So now you'd be in the same situation as LA, moving a top end dman to make room for another (although in our case the advantages are obvious, getting several years younger in the process). 

- and if they dont want Weber who are we giving to LA to get the deal done? If its Pacioretty or something then fine, but im assuming they'd want more.

 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Its a quiet time in rumourland so Eklund of course has to come up with something very salacious. He suggests that the kings are going to make a huge push for Karlsson at hte draft and will trade Doughty to make room.  Of course we are linked to being interested in Doughty.  

Obviously this is probably all hogwash, but just to play along:

- it seems crazy that LA would let one of the 5 best dmen in the league go, so they can acquire a different top 5 dman.  Albeit i think most of us would put Karlsson ahead of Doughty but not my much. We're talking about two elite players here.  Doughty is 6 months younger than Karlsson so its not an age thing. 

- if we were indeed interested in him, we'd have to move one of Weber or Petry since all 3 of them shoot right. Does LA want Weber? Probably not. So now you'd be in the same situation as LA, moving a top end dman to make room for another (although in our case the advantages are obvious, getting several years younger in the process). 

- and if they dont want Weber who are we giving to LA to get the deal done? If its Pacioretty or something then fine, but im assuming they'd want more.

 

For what it's worth, if I'm not mistaken, on HNIC, Don Cherry called Karlsson one of the worst D-men in the league. I'm assuming he meant his defensive play.

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

For what it's worth, if I'm not mistaken, on HNIC, Don Cherry called Karlsson one of the worst D-men in the league. I'm assuming he meant his defensive play.

Don Cherry is an idiot of the largest magnitude but what he actually said was "Last year he was one of the best defencemen, this year he's one of the worst" - so he was more speaking to how rough a year Karlsson has had, which i dont think anyone would dispute. Its been a bad year by Karlsson standards but that still puts him in among the best in the league most nights. 

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Jimmy Murphy (who is the Eklund or Tony Marinaro of Boston) says talk around the NHL is that Bergevin is willing to listen to trade offers for Price in the summer. Take it with a grain of salt because

1. Murphy is pretty unreliable as a source

2. Listening doesn't mean he will trade him

But if it's true then it's a good sign the Habs understand they need a serious re-tool.

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14 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Jimmy Murphy (who is the Eklund or Tony Marinaro of Boston) says talk around the NHL is that Bergevin is willing to listen to trade offers for Price in the summer. Take it with a grain of salt because

1. Murphy is pretty unreliable as a source

2. Listening doesn't mean he will trade him

But if it's true then it's a good sign the Habs understand they need a serious re-tool.

Absolutely.  Honestly seeing what Waite could get out of guys like Lindgren and Neimi makes you think that trading Price is the absolute best thing we could possibly do.   You have to think he's worth an established #1C (Draitsaitl, Barzal, Barkov) and possibly more.  If we went the route of blue chip prospects I think you could ask forThomas/Vilardi type quality AND a #1Dman propsect AND a #2C.     Maybe we dont resign Neimi (or another UFA) and bring back their #1 in the deal. Lots of options. 

One move could change the face of this franchise.  Ideally you'd also move Weber but baby steps.  Even listening to offers for Price is more than I would have expected from MB. 

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43 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Jimmy Murphy (who is the Eklund or Tony Marinaro of Boston) says talk around the NHL is that Bergevin is willing to listen to trade offers for Price in the summer. Take it with a grain of salt because

1. Murphy is pretty unreliable as a source

2. Listening doesn't mean he will trade him

But if it's true then it's a good sign the Habs understand they need a serious re-tool.

The retool starting with MB being let go hopefully.

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Dreger and McKenzie were talking about the possibility of a sign & trade for Tavares. 

The idea being that NY may know they cant sign him, so rather than lose him as an UFA they trade him before July 1st.    Its possible there's no chance of this (if JT actually wants to hit the open market) but its also possible that if the isles are willing to let him talk to other teams early, they can do a sign & trade.

In years past, trading for rights of an UFA is pretty minimal:  2nd - 4th round pick usually.  But in this case we are talking about sign & trade - meaning you dont get the exclusive rights to JT, you get a signed JT which is worth a lot more. How much more? dunno.   There's still a very small window (between when he can be traded and when all teams have the right to talk to him freely) so its not like they're going to get Alex Galchenyuk for him, but possibly a decent roster player or a decent prospect.     

What would you offer for a signed John Tavares?  If he was signed & traded, does that mean we could get him on an 8 year deal? Or would we actually still only be able to do 7 years? 

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2 hours ago, Noob616 said:

I'd trade any player in the organization for a signed Tavares in a heartbeat.

Yeah i guess the question is whether they can ask as much for Tavares knowing he's only a couple of weeks from UFA.  Meaning: sure a signed Tavares is worth a lot but how many teams would just risk waiting a couple of weeks and sign him then.  If he's really willing to sign with us (and we would probably have a pretty good idea from his agent being MB's close friend) then do we offer up Max Pacioretty for him a few weeks earlier than UFA? or do we risk it, try to sign him and then trade Max for LD help?  

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If you're Tavares, there's really only one advantage to a sign-and-trade... it's that you get the 8th year of the extension. Otherwise, not much reason for JT to agree to it unless it's to the team of his choice.

In his interview today, GM said that the team didn't have a franchise player (I guess Carey doesn't count any more and Subban's in Nashville) but that it presented an "opportunity" to get one... don't really know what that opportunity is, but a lot of people believe he was referring to Tavares. There are a lot of clues that the Habs are really hoping to go after Tavares. Not much of a plan.

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12 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

In his interview today, GM said that the team didn't have a franchise player (I guess Carey doesn't count any more and Subban's in Nashville) but that it presented an "opportunity" to get one... don't really know what that opportunity is, but a lot of people believe he was referring to Tavares. There are a lot of clues that the Habs are really hoping to go after Tavares. Not much of a plan.

One good thing about this statement is that maybe - just maybe - we will consider trading Price then.  I love Price, he's one of my favourite habs, but its pretty clear that the way this team is structured we are probably better off turning him into assets that fill more of our holes.  Plus it seems like Waite can pretty much make any 'tender useful so....

Interesting they dont consider Weber a franchise player considering we traded a different one , one-for-one for him...

In terms of the "plan" the only thing that would make sense is if Brisson and Bergevin already have a handshake deal in place.  I dont trust anything MB says any more so who knows.  We can hope. 

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https://news.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/rumors-of-a-huge-player-for-player-deal-between-the-senators-and-oilers?ref=jo

so much talk about hoffman for nuge, not a peep about patch. 

we need a center bad, they want a scoring winger, its the same deal with the same logic, if anything its makes more sense since we have zero centres at least sens have duchene.....

if that happens bergevin should get fired on the spot (as if he shouldnt already be ) 

then again, maybe as I suspected, nobody wants a guy who is invisible for 85% of the season and 100% of the playoffs

 

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18 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

https://news.hockeyfeed.com/nhl-news/rumors-of-a-huge-player-for-player-deal-between-the-senators-and-oilers?ref=jo

so much talk about hoffman for nuge, not a peep about patch. 

we need a center bad, they want a scoring winger, its the same deal with the same logic, if anything its makes more sense since we have zero centres at least sens have duchene.....

if that happens bergevin should get fired on the spot (as if he shouldnt already be ) 

then again, maybe as I suspected, nobody wants a guy who is invisible for 85% of the season and 100% of the playoffs

 

Well said. 100% Agreed.

Although unfortunately, Bergevin will NOT get fired because we have a clueless, intransigent Owner who like our GM, has contempt for the fan-base.

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So I was watching the game last and admired how Jullsen and Lernout played with and without the puck. How their only option was not to bang it off the wall but skate it out, make a short first pass or skate and hold until a defender actually challenged them. I thought Petry was possibly our worst deeman. So I started to think. Lekonen, Gallagher, Galchenyk, Droiun,  Patches, Byron, Hudon, Shaw.  Eight wingers add 4 centers and that is a very, very very  good 4 lines.

So my thought was how about either price to Edmonton for RNH, DN and their goalie. Or Price to St Louis for Thomas, Dunn and their goalie. You can add Petry maybe get a good second round pick possibly first. Never mind trading Weber or Patches

You now have 10 million to dangle to Tavares and two wingers in MAX Pactorietyy and Gallagher or Galchenyk, to play with Tavares...

Patches Tavares and GAlchenyk/Gallager

Droiun RNH or Thomas and Gallager/Galchenyk

Lekonen Hudon Sherbak

Byron Danualt Shaw

Delauries, Poeling/Ikonen, MCCarrons, Del A rose,

Darnel/Dunn/Reilly and Weber

First pick Montreal/Mete, Jullsen

Alsner/Valiev -Lernout/First pick Montreal

LIndgregan/Talbot or jake Allen

 

I actually believe this team could be very good. And you remain quite young...

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According to Georges Laraque, the Habs are a front-runner for Tavares and he placed the odds of JT coming here at 50%, which is reasonably high. He argues that GM and MB must know something we don't, with all their hints about needing a franchise player and there being an opportunity to get one. He also talks about the Bergevin-Brisson relationship as being an in for inside information that could give the Habs the belief they have a good shot.

We've discussed this before, but in our favor...

- We can afford to pay him

- We have the cap space to do so

- We have several of his higher-profile teammates from Team Canada (Weber, Price) as well as another high-profile client of Brisson's (Pacioretty)

- We are one of the few teams with the above cap space/money that has an opening for a 1C.

- A number of media people have suggested we'd be among the favorites to land him if he walks

No one knows exactly what's going through Tavares' mind, but a lot of people believe he wants to go somewhere he can win a Cup. Unlike the Stamkos situation where he re-signed in Tampa, it's less likely the Isles will be a true contender and they're missing just as many pieces as we are. So I'd agree with the sentiment that it is more likely JT leaves NY than it was Stamkos leaves TB. Does that make it likely? No, not necessarily. But there's more of an opening to slide in than there was with SS.

So IF IF IF Tavares wants to play in a hockey city and if he wants to remain a 1C (and even in Long Island Barzal is pushing him for that job) and if he wants to be paid, then we're near the top of the list. The big question then remains whether he believes we can win with the core we have if you add him to it and maybe 1-2 other decent moves. but let's say for argument's sake that the Habs win the lottery and draft Dahlin. And let's say for argument's sake that they deal one of Galchenyuk, Drouin, Pacioretty, Gallagher, or so on for a player like RNH or so on. Is that enough for JT to look at our roster and feel like we're close. We're far away now, but with the parity in the league, it doesn't take a lot to swing from one end to the other. So imagine even without trading our Big Aging Three of Pacman, Price, and Weber that we do win the lottery and we're offering JT this potential line-up

Pacioretty-Tavares-Gallagher

Drouin-RNH-Scherbak

Hudon-Danault-Lehkonen

Carr-McCarron-A. Shaw

Byron, DLR

 

Dahlin-Weber

Mete-Petry

Reilly-Juulsen

Benn or Valiev

 

Price

Lindgren or Niemi

 

Well, just by subtraction of the dead weight (Schlemko, Alzner, Froese, Deslauriers, L. Shaw, Morrow, etc.) this team is already better than it was this year. Suddenly, you've got a very decent top 4 D. You've got young players with talent. You have an all-world goalie. It's not unreasonable for JT to think that's a good landing spot, where he's a clear 1C, he's got a decent supporting cast, and he's on a team with both veteran stars and young guys who will get better. Sure, you're banking on Price to find his form, but if you ask around the NHL, to a man, every single person expects him to and feels like he's still a top 3 goalie in the league. So you don't need to sell Tavares on that to get him here. I don't think you're going to have to sell him on Weber, whose reputation also exceeds his actual worth/performance. Players love these guys as teammates, so even though we may not see it, they're going to be draws to get JT here. We can't control the lottery though, we can't control JT's sense of whether we can win, and we can't control what every other team pitches to him. But it's a near lock we'll give him a max contract (or there about), so like with Stamkos, IF he makes it to market, I think we're going to be one of the teams with the top 3-4 odds of getting him.

 

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