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2017-18 The Rumors Thread


BigTed3
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53 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I think its unfair to think we could regain our former glory. With the number of teams and salary cap its basically impossible.

I beg to differ on that one. If we get our house in order without the restraints of politics, and we get to building a solid team based on the skill that is required for today's NHL, I think we would have a very good chance indeed.

This of course would be predicated on the fact that we would need a different GM & Owner.

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42 minutes ago, maas_art said:

For sure - and this will vary by player to player - but i dont think that is a massive deal breaker for a lot of guys.  Its not like we're talking about a $50k salary vs $65k.  These guys are set for life. The "money" is more about "I am one of the 5 best players in the world and i want to be paid as one of the 5 best players in the world" for a lot of them.  Ive heard more than one player say that what is important is gross pay, not net.  Gross pay shows what they are 'worth' and how they are valued.   I am sure there are plenty of players who are more interested in net too. 

So while i agree - on money alone, no one can compete with say, Vegas, there are other factors.   Like habsisme Id be worried about signing in LV because as good as they've played i dont see it as sustainable. Right now they are running on adrenaline, game in, game out. Every single player is playing the best hockey of their career. That most likely wont continue  into next year (although they've been proving us all wrong for a full season!) 

I think the real question in terms of us, is how good he (JT) believes players like Weber and Price are.  We can sit and criticize them all we want but in last year's poll of NHL players they were both ranked highly as players you dont want to play against and players you want on your team.  So while the stats and the eye test may say otherwise, a lot of NHL players still consider them to be elite.  

It would be nice to know what JT wants.  He obviously keeps a lot of things close to his chest but there are some contradictory reports out there.  Some say he's looking for a hockey city - original 6 - while others say he doesnt like the limelight at all.      So at this point its tough to call.    I am still holding out a glimmer of hope that he signs with us but its just a dream for now.  I guess in like 5+ weeks we'll know for sure :)

I suppose gross pay is important in terms of a players value, but... as an example, 11 million per season for 7 years amounts to a gain of over 10 million if you choose Vegas. Nashville is another organization that can compete on net pay... and an organization that could be interested. Nashville can also boast a few consecutive years of being competitive and looking like they're going to be competitive again next season.

It's a long, long way until July 1st. It would be hilarious if he resigns now because of the Lou thing.

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I suppose gross pay is important in terms of a players value, but... as an example, 11 million per season for 7 years amounts to a gain of over 10 million if you choose Vegas.

Totally. Im not saying its not 'real dollars' because it is, but its also tough to understand those kinds of numbers for most of us. I have several very very wealthy family members (not that they ever think of me!! haha) but they do tend to look at money differently than those of us that go to work every day.

So far JT has made $44.25m over his career (Gross).   A 7 year deal anywhere is most likely to net him $77-84m (gross).  So we're talking about a LOT of money but its not like $10m over the next ten years is peanuts. Thats a substantial amount.   But I think most - most, not all - players would be willing to forgo that if they felt they were putting themselves in the best position to win a cup.

2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Nashville is another organization that can compete on net pay... and an organization that could be interested. Nashville can also boast a few consecutive years of being competitive and looking like they're going to be competitive again next season.

Totally. And Nashville scares me in terms of the fact there's really no way we compete against them unless he's totally sold on a "hockey market"      I do think Nashville may have trouble with his salary in a few years too, but they could do it now i think.  

 

1 hour ago, booboo_mtl said:

Probably really need a key player, like JT, to come out and admit he’s signing with team B partly due to net pay. That’s probably the only way this issue will ever get addressed 

There have been lots of players who have said they took lower offers because they liked the team, the philosophy or their chances of winning.  You dont see it as much with role players but plenty of big name players have done this & been vocal about doing so.  

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51 minutes ago, maas_art said:

There have been lots of players who have said they took lower offers because they liked the team, the philosophy or their chances of winning.  You dont see it as much with role players but plenty of big name players have done this & been vocal about doing so.  

Yes but I can't think of any that said they chose Dallas or wherever because of the tax implications. They use the team/philosophy/winning a cup/family...... just never heard the taxman as an influence in any decision. 

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

Totally. Im not saying its not 'real dollars' because it is, but its also tough to understand those kinds of numbers for most of us. I have several very very wealthy family members (not that they ever think of me!! haha) but they do tend to look at money differently than those of us that go to work every day.

So far JT has made $44.25m over his career (Gross).   A 7 year deal anywhere is most likely to net him $77-84m (gross).  So we're talking about a LOT of money but its not like $10m over the next ten years is peanuts. Thats a substantial amount.   But I think most - most, not all - players would be willing to forgo that if they felt they were putting themselves in the best position to win a cup.

Totally. And Nashville scares me in terms of the fact there's really no way we compete against them unless he's totally sold on a "hockey market"      I do think Nashville may have trouble with his salary in a few years too, but they could do it now i think.  

 

There have been lots of players who have said they took lower offers because they liked the team, the philosophy or their chances of winning.  You dont see it as much with role players but plenty of big name players have done this & been vocal about doing so.  

Every player will approach the importance of salary differently. I think it's like that in the "real world" as well. Some people will seek employment opportunities that give them the highest pay, others will place more importance on working conditions, co-workers, proximity to family, being in a certain location, or so on. The salary cap, as I've said before, restricts clubs with higher taxation from being able to catch up and adjust for that by simply spending more in absolute dollars. The wildcard for Tavares is that we don't know whether Montreal or Toronto would give him more potential revenue from marketing opportunities than other cities. Maybe, maybe not.

Nashville, I think, gives Tavares a much better shot at winning now than us. But again, they'd have work to do to make the cap work, and the biggest question is how they manage the center depth. Ryan Johansen is a number 1 center, maybe not as good as Tavares, but he's a clear number 1. So at the very least, having Johansen is going to cut into Tavares' ice time and his PP usage. Sure, JT will get his chances, but if he struggles, there's someone to take over his role. In Montreal, he's pretty much the go-to guy at center, as he has been with the Isles. He's likely to get bigger minutes here. Nashville also has Turris, who underwhelmed down the stretch, but who is signed to a long extension at 6M a year. He's probably a hard contract to trade at this time, so if Nashville signs JT, are they going to pay him 10-12+M and then have 25M tied up in three centers? And is Bonino then going to be the 4th line center, making over 4M a year? Personally, I think Nashville's got other areas of need, and while they could still sign JT and then trade someone else, it might be hard to deal Turris and not desirable to trade Johansen.

if JT were going to go to a Toronto or Nashville or San Jose, I wonder if he signs a 1 or 2 year deal, a la Marian Hossa, for a high cap hit but without the commitment, so he tries to win a Cup right away and then moves on for his long-term contract thereafter. Might be easier for a club like Toronto to find cap space for one season than to have him locked in long-term, but it's a big risk for Tavares to not have protection against injury when he could break the bank for 7-8 years now.

 

3 hours ago, booboo_mtl said:

Yes but I can't think of any that said they chose Dallas or wherever because of the tax implications. They use the team/philosophy/winning a cup/family...... just never heard the taxman as an influence in any decision. 

 

Radulov went to Dallas for the exact same contract offer but with less tax loss, if you believe the rumors. Bergevin has stated that pretty much to a tee, just depends how much you're inclined to believe MB.

 

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8 hours ago, maas_art said:

For sure - and this will vary by player to player - but i dont think that is a massive deal breaker for a lot of guys.  Its not like we're talking about a $50k salary vs $65k.  These guys are set for life. The "money" is more about "I am one of the 5 best players in the world and i want to be paid as one of the 5 best players in the world" for a lot of them.  Ive heard more than one player say that what is important is gross pay, not net.  Gross pay shows what they are 'worth' and how they are valued.   I am sure there are plenty of players who are more interested in net too. 

So while i agree - on money alone, no one can compete with say, Vegas, there are other factors.   Like habsisme Id be worried about signing in LV because as good as they've played i dont see it as sustainable. Right now they are running on adrenaline, game in, game out. Every single player is playing the best hockey of their career. That most likely wont continue  into next year (although they've been proving us all wrong for a full season!) 

I think the real question in terms of us, is how good he (JT) believes players like Weber and Price are.  We can sit and criticize them all we want but in last year's poll of NHL players they were both ranked highly as players you dont want to play against and players you want on your team.  So while the stats and the eye test may say otherwise, a lot of NHL players still consider them to be elite.  

 

It would be nice to know what JT wants.  He obviously keeps a lot of things close to his chest but there are some contradictory reports out there.  Some say he's looking for a hockey city - original 6 - while others say he doesnt like the limelight at all.      So at this point its tough to call.    I am still holding out a glimmer of hope that he signs with us but its just a dream for now.  I guess in like 5+ weeks we'll know for sure :)

LOL........I can't recall an NHL player disrespecting another player unless that player was Sean Avery. Most of the players know each other, it's a small community, and are too diplomatic to say bad things about each other. Afterall, they could become teammates at some point in time.

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

LOL........I can't recall an NHL player disrespecting another player unless that player was Sean Avery. Most of the players know each other, it's a small community, and are too diplomatic to say bad things about each other. Afterall, they could become teammates at some point in time.

and how exactly does that have anything to do with the survey I was referring to? 

Players were allowed to write down ANY player as "hardest to play against" or "who you'd want on your team" and they picked price for several of them and weber for a few.    That isnt "not trying to offend someone" that is them (the majority of the players polled) believing - rightly or wrongly - that those two are still extremely important and effective players. 

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19 hours ago, maas_art said:

So far JT has made $44.25m over his career (Gross).   A 7 year deal anywhere is most likely to net him $77-84m (gross).  So we're talking about a LOT of money but its not like $10m over the next ten years is peanuts. Thats a substantial amount.   But I think most - most, not all - players would be willing to forgo that if they felt they were putting themselves in the best position to win a cup.

Totally. And Nashville scares me in terms of the fact there's really no way we compete against them unless he's totally sold on a "hockey market"      I do think Nashville may have trouble with his salary in a few years too, but they could do it now i think.  

There have been lots of players who have said they took lower offers because they liked the team, the philosophy or their chances of winning.  You dont see it as much with role players but plenty of big name players have done this & been vocal about doing so.  

Ted made a good case against Nashville (too many centers), but... I would think Nashville could find a way to ditch Bonino or Turris if necessary. I just feel like, if I'm Tavares, and Montreal and Nashville make me similar offers... Let's say, around $12 million/season for 7 years. I go with Nashville. More competitive team, more net pay, better management, less media scrutiny, etc. Hopefully Tavares does value Montreal, but I'm not holding my breath. Sure, maybe he sees Price and Weber as elite and thinks this season was an anomaly.

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51 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Ted made a good case against Nashville (too many centers), but... I would think Nashville could find a way to ditch Bonino or Turris if necessary. I just feel like, if I'm Tavares, and Montreal and Nashville make me similar offers... Let's say, around $12 million/season for 7 years. I go with Nashville. More competitive team, more net pay, better management, less media scrutiny, etc. Hopefully Tavares does value Montreal, but I'm not holding my breath. Sure, maybe he sees Price and Weber as elite and thinks this season was an anomaly.

Yeah i totally get what you're saying & thats why, in the end, it really comes down to what is going on in JT's head. 

I think that winning has got to be a high priority to him.  There are no guarantees of course (ask Hossa who signed a 1 year deal with the pens and lost to the wings in the finals then signed a 1 year deal with the wings & lost to the pens in the final the very next year... 3rd time was a charm with chicago mind you) but you would have to think that any sane person would see the Preds as much more likely to contend for a cup championship than us.

But, some people dont see it that way.  Some might say we are a John Tavares a way from being legit contenders.  Maybe MB has a whole set of plans he would lay out to JT.  I have no idea.

 

Im sure he does see last year as an anomaly  - and in some ways it was. I mean we arent anywhere near good enough to be considered legit cup contenders but does anyone actually believe we're as bad as we were last year?  With Weber healthy and price back to reasonable form?  Now, if you believe Weber will continue to miss games and Price will never be good again, thats a big problem because thats nearly $20m off our cap and two very key players.  But, assuming they do rebound, we move up from 28th to like 20th or 15th probably.  Add a JT to the roster, move JD either to wing or #2Centre and somehow (trade, signing etc) manage to get a puck moving LHD and maybe we're  a top 10 team.   Maybe MB can sell us as even better than that (true or not, it doesnt matter, what matters is whether the UFA believes it).   Add in a second centre like Stastny signed as an UFA and suddenly we're looking a  lot better. 

Its interesting to speculate about - and obviously we all hope he would actually sign here - but at this point its hard to even gauge how likely it is without knowing more about what really matters to him. 

 

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I'll play devil's advocate to the Nashville vs. Montreal thing again:

1. Price and Weber, rightly or wrongly, are valued more highly by players than they are by us as fans. This is especially true of guys who have been their teammates on Team Canada. Hard to say how much of a factor that is for JT.

2. The incremental increase in team success from Tavares coming to Mtl is significantly higher than his going to Nashville. If he goes to Nas, Johansen and he duke it out for 1 vs. 1A, Turris moves from 2C to 3C, Bonino from 3C to 4C, etc. But the upgrade from Johansen-Turris to Tavares-Johansen is smaller than the upgrade we get from Drouin-Danault to Tavares-Drouin. So you have to figure JT knows that he fills a hole on our team that greatly increases our chances just because of him. Nashville may not improve that much with him compared to without him.

3. I talked about the cap issues at center. I think trading Turris' 6 years x 6M contract after his season may be hard (albeit watch MB jump all over him if he doesn't get JT). But look at the team as a whole as well. 67.5M already tied up in cap money. Let's say Suaros signs for a conservative 1.5M and Hartman for 3M (and these numbers could be higher). That's now 72M spent. Ellis is a UFA after this season, and he's going to see his 2.5M increase to something likely in the 6-7M range, which likely accounts for any savings you get from Rinne leaving. Fiala and Sissons will also be due raises, which is a product of team success.So decisions would need to be made... if you sign JT now, someone's got to go this off-season. Is it worth it to Nashville to go all in on JT if it means they're giving up someone like a Turris or Ellis or Smith/Fiala to make it happen? Maybe, but I don't think it's as obvious as the decision is for us.

4. The other interesting cap question is the Shea Weber story and how it affects Nashville. The Preds could theoretically be hit with a 10-20M cap hit per season in 6-7 years. So if JT is on your roster at 12M per year and you have a cap recapture penalty of the same amount, you're roster might just be cooked down the line. Again, maybe Poile doesn't care what the next GM has to manage in 5 years, but maybe it's a factor too.

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Ted made a good case against Nashville (too many centers), but... I would think Nashville could find a way to ditch Bonino or Turris if necessary. I just feel like, if I'm Tavares, and Montreal and Nashville make me similar offers... Let's say, around $12 million/season for 7 years. I go with Nashville. More competitive team, more net pay, better management, less media scrutiny, etc. Hopefully Tavares does value Montreal, but I'm not holding my breath. Sure, maybe he sees Price and Weber as elite and thinks this season was an anomaly.

Why would Tavares want to come to a losing team with an idiot GM who never takes responsibility for his own mistakes, and constantly throws his players under the bus, along with a benign owner who supports him and at the same time seems to know nothing about hockey in today's NHL???

Rhetorical question of course.

As for Price & Weber acting as a lure for him to come here, there's much to be desired from those two IMO.

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4 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

4. The other interesting cap question is the Shea Weber story and how it affects Nashville. The Preds could theoretically be hit with a 10-20M cap hit per season in 6-7 years. So if JT is on your roster at 12M per year and you have a cap recapture penalty of the same amount, you're roster might just be cooked down the line. Again, maybe Poile doesn't care what the next GM has to manage in 5 years, but maybe it's a factor too.

I think Poile intends to be GM indefinitely.  He's already been there for all 21 years of their franchise's existence.

I have a sneaking suspicion that if Weber decides to retire down the line, someone will trade him back to Nashville.  Rather than pay an insane recapture fee, they would probably give up a 1st rounder or top prospect to get him back & bury him somehow. 

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3 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Ted made a good case against Nashville (too many centers), but... I would think Nashville could find a way to ditch Bonino or Turris if necessary. I just feel like, if I'm Tavares, and Montreal and Nashville make me similar offers... Let's say, around $12 million/season for 7 years. I go with Nashville. More competitive team, more net pay, better management, less media scrutiny, etc. Hopefully Tavares does value Montreal, but I'm not holding my breath. Sure, maybe he sees Price and Weber as elite and thinks this season was an anomaly.

I just read on the bulletproof source of information that is  eklund that the rumour is nash might trade for his rights and the trade would include turris so there you do.

I could actually really see it.  preds have a very complete deep team but no one to get them that crucial goal when it came down to it. forsberg is great but not quite that level. I think that having a real star like scheifele had a lot to do with how the jets were able to come out on top

and hey if they need to trade a center after they know who to call lol, id take turris happily

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43 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

I just read on the bulletproof source of information that is  eklund that the rumour is nash might trade for his rights and the trade would include turris so there you do.

I could actually really see it.  preds have a very complete deep team but no one to get them that crucial goal when it came down to it. forsberg is great but not quite that level. I think that having a real star like scheifele had a lot to do with how the jets were able to come out on top

and hey if they need to trade a center after they know who to call lol, id take turris happily

Turris for the rights to Tavares seems steep but Poile is no stranger to 3 way deals so maybe.  If he somehow pulled that off they would be scarier than they already are. 

 

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4 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Why would Tavares want to come to a losing team with an idiot GM who never takes responsibility for his own mistakes, and constantly throws his players under the bus, along with a benign owner who supports him and at the same time seems to know nothing about hockey in today's NHL???

Rhetorical question of course.

As for Price & Weber acting as a lure for him to come here, there's much to be desired from those two IMO.

Why would Price re-sign here long-term?

Why would Subban have signed a long-term deal here when he was personally disrespected by Bergevin in negotiations twice?

Why would Alzner rush to sign here as his first choice?

I don't know. But some players like playing here. Maybe they like the city, the team's history, the teammates they will have, the coach, the atmosphere at games. Some European players like the fact Montreal has more of a European feel than a lot of other NHL cities. Some Canadian players like playing in Canada in hockey-centric cities. So I agree, players likely aren't coming here because of Bergevin but they may well be coming here despite him.

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

Turris for the rights to Tavares seems steep but Poile is no stranger to 3 way deals so maybe.  If he somehow pulled that off they would be scarier than they already are. 

 

It's not steep if JT agrees to sign with the Preds before the trade is made. Nashville would probably have to add something to the deal but I could see it happening.

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7 hours ago, maas_art said:

 

Im sure he does see last year as an anomaly  - and in some ways it was. I mean we arent anywhere near good enough to be considered legit cup contenders but does anyone actually believe we're as bad as we were last year?  With Weber healthy and price back to reasonable form?  Now, if you believe Weber will continue to miss games and Price will never be good again, thats a big problem because thats nearly $20m off our cap and two very key players.  But, assuming they do rebound, we move up from 28th to like 20th or 15th probably.  Add a JT to the roster, move JD either to wing or #2Centre and somehow (trade, signing etc) manage to get a puck moving LHD and maybe we're  a top 10 team.   Maybe MB can sell us as even better than that (true or not, it doesnt matter, what matters is whether the UFA believes it).   Add in a second centre like Stastny signed as an UFA and suddenly we're looking a  lot better. 

 

 

I do. Unless drastic changes are made to the defense we'll be right where we were this year. We're in a deep hole. To fix a problem in one area we'll need to subtract from another area which is not something we can afford to do. Decimating the defense in one year has absolutely killed any hopes this team has for years.

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16 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I do. Unless drastic changes are made to the defense we'll be right where we were this year. We're in a deep hole. To fix a problem in one area we'll need to subtract from another area which is not something we can afford to do. Decimating the defense in one year has absolutely killed any hopes this team has for years.

This is the bottom line. You can sign Tavares and trade for another center, but if your D still features Alzner, Schlemko, and Benn, you're done. You can't have a D man who is too slow to keep up with the play on every shift. It's pretty much like you're playing the entire game short-handed.

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17 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I do. Unless drastic changes are made to the defense we'll be right where we were this year. We're in a deep hole. To fix a problem in one area we'll need to subtract from another area which is not something we can afford to do. Decimating the defense in one year has absolutely killed any hopes this team has for years.

I would like to see more done but have to say. Weber healthy, Mete a full year under his belt Jullisen and others got a lot of valuable minutes and Petry got a lot of top minutes. All I believe will help these players moving forward. So I hope there is more help but I already see our defense better than we started last year. I think a lot of young players Hudon ect. that were able to stay the season will only get stronger and better also. Yes we have some issues we need addressed but I definitely think we'll do better than we did. It would also be hard to believe Price would have another year with as big of drop off as he did.  

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52 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

I would like to see more done but have to say. Weber healthy, Mete a full year under his belt Jullisen and others got a lot of valuable minutes and Petry got a lot of top minutes. All I believe will help these players moving forward. So I hope there is more help but I already see our defense better than we started last year. I think a lot of young players Hudon ect. that were able to stay the season will only get stronger and better also. Yes we have some issues we need addressed but I definitely think we'll do better than we did. It would also be hard to believe Price would have another year with as big of drop off as he did.  

should we expect incremental improvements from middling developing players? sure.

should we expect that to change the fact that best players for best players there is a good argument that we have the worst team in the league? not at all. This is a very bad team.

unless we make a big overhaul, which you know we wont....ill be amazed if mr.incompetence even manages to trade patchy.....your looking at the same pop gun offence and porous defence. could carey steal us a few more games? i guess, but as is this is still a lottery team even with some better luck.

 

 

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Unless they get a legitimate # 1 C and first pairing D man - Im expecting much of the same as last year . If they get those  2 then maybe I could see a battle for a wildcard.

This team goes as Carey goes ,

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If I were Nashville I would just make a major pitch for Tavares and figure the rest out after. That's an organization that wants to win now. Tavares and Johansen down the middle could make that happen. I was unimpressed with Turris in the post-season, so an upgrade at center ice could be a great idea for Nashville. You have a lot of things working in your favor. If Tavares says, "yes," then perhaps you let Ryan Ellis walk. Perhaps you trade Turris or Bonino.

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10 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Unless they get a legitimate # 1 C and first pairing D man - Im expecting much of the same as last year . If they get those  2 then maybe I could see a battle for a wildcard.

This team goes as Carey goes ,

I'm doubtful we'll get both, so... perhaps we can start a, "How long 'til MB is fired," poll to begin 2018-2019?

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