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2017-18 The Rumors Thread


BigTed3
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41 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

I was looking at this possibility last night. I think we have some advantages in that we have some extra bodies right now and extra cap space.  This  allows us to sweeten a deal and make some teams look past the fact Patches will be a UFA in a year. Nyquist is in a similar situations to Patches and taking on Helm's contract may be a good part of the deal.  I know some feel having cap space going into the season is not good, but I think it shows we have a lot of young players in the system on their first or second contracts and in my mind is not necessarily a mismanagement of salaries. If we can use some of that cash to sweeten some deals that is a bonus.. This also appears to align with teams that are interested in Patches. I don't think it is a coincidence that most of the teams interested in Patches are also up against the cap ie St. Louis, Minnesota, Florida, LA, Detroit. and to some extent Chicago. Some of those teams have long term contracts that could hinder future signings. In particular Yandle in Florida, Bouwmeister in St ;Louis, and Seabrook  in Chicago stand out the most. I am not sure Seabrook can continue to be effective in today's game and I could see where our ability to take on some salary  may Help to facilitate moving Patches

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1 hour ago, jeff33 said:

 

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Awesome! Wingers between the ages of 28-31!!! :lol:

Ugg.   Totally not what we need, and completely an MB type of trade.    Nyquist and Helm are both good solid players but slot exactly where on a roster that already boasts Gallagher, Drouin, Domi, Hudon, Lehkonen, Scherbak, Armia and Shaw as far as winger depth?   I know that Nyquist is a natural centre but he hasnt played there for a while has he? 

Now, if we're talking to Detroit I could totally get behind a deal like:

Pacioretty 

for

Nyquist (Who we play at #2C and hope he can go back to that position seamlessly)
High pick
Dennis Cholowski or Filip Hronek or Similar high end prospect. 

I have no problem bringing in an older player like Nyquist as part of the deal, especially if they can take one of those top 2 centre spots, but we HAVE to get a young top end player in this deal. To me thats  more important than the draft pick even.


 

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16 hours ago, maas_art said:

 

Ugg.   Totally not what we need, and completely an MB type of trade.    Nyquist and Helm are both good solid players but slot exactly where on a roster that already boasts Gallagher, Drouin, Domi, Hudon, Lehkonen, Scherbak, Armia and Shaw as far as winger depth?   I know that Nyquist is a natural centre but he hasnt played there for a while has he? 

Now, if we're talking to Detroit I could totally get behind a deal like:

Pacioretty 

for

Nyquist (Who we play at #2C and hope he can go back to that position seamlessly)
High pick
Dennis Cholowski or Filip Hronek or Similar high end prospect. 

I have no problem bringing in an older player like Nyquist as part of the deal, especially if they can take one of those top 2 centre spots, but we HAVE to get a young top end player in this deal. To me thats  more important than the draft pick even.

I'd make the deal for Detroit's first overall next season! However, I'm doubtful they would consider making that deal. I honestly have no idea why Detroit would want to acquire Pacioretty. It makes no sense to me.

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

 I honestly have no idea why Detroit would want to acquire Pacioretty. It makes no sense to me.

Yeah I agree and there have been a few rumours:  Detroit, Buffalo, Arizona, NYR - none of which make much sense to me.   I can defintely see him being of interest on an up and coming team like Florida  or a team trying for a push while its still got a window (Chicago, Nashville, SJ, LA) but a team like Detroit or NYR makes no sense unless its a 3 way deal or, like us, they think they are in a mini retool, not a rebuild but i think only some GMs are that delusional. 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yeah I agree and there have been a few rumours:  Detroit, Buffalo, Arizona, NYR - none of which make much sense to me.   I can defintely see him being of interest on an up and coming team like Florida  or a team trying for a push while its still got a window (Chicago, Nashville, SJ, LA) but a team like Detroit or NYR makes no sense unless its a 3 way deal or, like us, they think they are in a mini retool, not a rebuild but i think only some GMs are that delusional. 

I actually could see Detroit interested because they have a new building they want to keep full and making the playoffs has always been a push for Detroit. Even though it is a good hockey market the Wings still compete against the Tigers , Lions, Pistons and U of M and MSU Notre Dame for advertising gate receipts marketing apparel ect. SW Michigan has a large Hawks fan base and Da' Bears' . Illitch owns both the Tigers and Wings and I'm sure he'd like to see one make the post season. 

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3 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I actually could see Detroit interested because they have a new building they want to keep full and making the playoffs has always been a push for Detroit. Even though it is a good hockey market the Wings still compete against the Tigers , Lions, Pistons and U of M and MSU Notre Dame for advertising gate receipts marketing apparel ect. SW Michigan has a large Hawks fan base and Da' Bears' . Illitch owns both the Tigers and Wings and I'm sure he'd like to see one make the post season. 

There's certainly some arguments to make for a team like detroit (or NYR who are about an hour away from where Max was born - ie, hometown boy) but I still think in the bigger picture both franchises look like they want to go the 'long haul' route... but who knows really. 

I think the bigger thing is that while i think any team would be interested in acquiring Pacioretty,  some of the aforementioned teams would be unlikely to gve up what we seek... although who knows what Mb is truly after. Probably another LW and RD. 

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17 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yikes.   Better hope we can do a sign & trade or its going to be slim pickins. 

I don't see how you can trade Pacioretty for a package like that. It's comparable to what we got for Plekanec, and Pacioretty/Skinner are much better players. The one saving grace is that Skinner had a NTC and apparently vetoed a number of trades, so Carolina might have been pinned into more of a corner. But if that's all you can get, you absolutely can't trade him. You either keep him til the deadline and hope he can boost his value or else you work on a contract extension (either to keep him or as a sign-and-trade). Once again, this reinforces the need to dump Bergevin. Our GM comes right out and says he's not signing him and now what kind of a pickle has he created for himself. Change GM's and then other teams can't hold that "we won't sign him" over your heads any more...

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The nice thing about this (I agree what they got for Skinner wasn't much 3 picks and a warm body) is Skinner is now off the market and If you're looking to add scoring we  are currently best place to shop. The other read I get from this is Bergevin is asking for a little more, otherwise the Sabres would have looked our way.  

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1 minute ago, Habberwacky said:

The nice thing about this (I agree what they got for Skinner wasn't much 3 picks and a warm body) is Skinner is now off the market and If you're looking to add scoring we  are currently best place to shop. The other read I get from this is Bergevin is asking for a little more, otherwise the Sabres would have looked our way.  

Problem is the guy MB is trying to trade , didn't score last year , and MB is probably asking for the moon

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6 minutes ago, Regis22 said:

Problem is the guy MB is trying to trade , didn't score last year , and MB is probably asking for the moon

The moon will definitely be a reach, although Max is a little cheaper he is also older than Skinner. Patches may turn out to be worth as much as Eller (2 second rounders) or less which is a little scarey.  It will be interesting to see if this deal makes Bergevin reflect upon movinf Pacioretty sooner rather than later, because I Max has a bad start and his value drops further this could really get ugly. It will be interesting to see if Skinner signs long term in Buffalo, because if he is refusing to do so that may explain the return Carolina got. 

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12 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't see how you can trade Pacioretty for a package like that. It's comparable to what we got for Plekanec, and Pacioretty/Skinner are much better players. The one saving grace is that Skinner had a NTC and apparently vetoed a number of trades, so Carolina might have been pinned into more of a corner. But if that's all you can get, you absolutely can't trade him. You either keep him til the deadline and hope he can boost his value or else you work on a contract extension (either to keep him or as a sign-and-trade). Once again, this reinforces the need to dump Bergevin. Our GM comes right out and says he's not signing him and now what kind of a pickle has he created for himself. Change GM's and then other teams can't hold that "we won't sign him" over your heads any more...

I just don't get why he would ever come out and say that, even if he was thinking it.  It's not like Bergevin has an aversion to lying or secrecy, so why pick this moment for complete transparency?

Unless maybe he is trying to resign Patches and just wanted some perceived leverage or something?  Because seriously, I really can't see any positive to making it known publicly that you're planning on moving on.

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If the return Carolina got for Skinner is approximately what we'll get for Max, then... UGH. That would be an absolute loss (AGAIN) for Bergevin. But, he's painted himself into the corner, so... what else is he going to do? I agree with Ted, if that's the market, then let's just keep him until the trade deadline.

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17 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Our GM comes right out and says he's not signing him and now what kind of a pickle has he created for himself. 

A number of well respected analysts have said they dont believe MB actually ever said that - which is all good and fine but then if thats true then he HAS to publicly acknowledge that.   Lets say there were rumors all over the place tomorrow that he was shopping Carey Price.  You dont think he'd be calling a press conference to announce he has no plans of doing so?   At first I gave him the benefit of the doubt saying "no one is dumb enough to say he's not going to resign his top trade chip" but even if that part is true, not following up with at least an interview dispelling it, is as bad as starting it in the first place imho. 

16 hours ago, Habberwacky said:

The nice thing about this (I agree what they got for Skinner wasn't much 3 picks and a warm body) is Skinner is now off the market and If you're looking to add scoring we  are currently best place to shop. The other read I get from this is Bergevin is asking for a little more, otherwise the Sabres would have looked our way.  

Agreed. To a degree it establishes a price but it also decreases the number of guys available.  

3 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

If the return Carolina got for Skinner is approximately what we'll get for Max, then... UGH. That would be an absolute loss (AGAIN) for Bergevin. But, he's painted himself into the corner, so... what else is he going to do? I agree with Ted, if that's the market, then let's just keep him until the trade deadline.

Personally i think we can still get a fair bit more for Pacioretty.  We also dont know all the details. For example, lets say that Skinner wants a big UFA payday next year.  He's told Carolina he wont resign and he's told them he wont resign with any team out there.  He wants to go somewhere like Buffalo (who has an elite #1C) and he can hopefully have a career year so he nixes trades to places where there isnt an #1C and an open LW spot but he accepts the move to Buffalo for that reason.

Pacioretty has said he'd sign an extension (although it seems like there are only limited teams but its something) and he has no ntc so we can ship him anywhere.

Obviously best case scenario is still us moving him to a team he negotiates with first & comes up with a contract, but failing that, letting him play, hopefully get on a scoring streak, and then trading him midseason or at the TD is probably the next best option.

However,  I have a feeling MB wont wait till deadline day. There's very strong rumors he wants a new captain on his team & the whole "attitude" thing was directed at Pacioretty - not that he had a bad attitude but that he couldn't coral those who did.   Id be pretty surprised to see him on our roster opening night tbh, even thought it probably makes the most sense. 

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^^ There were reports from pretty well-placed people that MB said outright that he told Pacioretty they wouldn't negotiate with him. Sure, all hearsay all ways around, but given Bergevin's history, it makes a lot of sense. Bergevin painted himself into corners with lots of other players and/or lowered their value through his actions: Subban, Galchenyuk, Briere, Kassian, Radulov, Markov, Desharnais. All players whom he's either publicly denigrated or where he's played hardball in the media or where he waited for their value to be at an all-time low before he finally traded them. No reason to doubt he's done exactly the same with Pacioretty.

At this point, if he hasn't said it, you'd think the smart move would be to come out and say he's negotiating with Pacioretty on a long-term deal and also to actually do that. You don't have to sign anything, but feel out what he wants and maybe make him an offer that makes sense to your club. I don't see the harm in offering Max 5-6 years at 7.5M per season. If he signs it, you have a guy where you're no longer pressed into trading him and where he probably has decent value on that type of contract. And if he doesn't sign it, you at least come out and let it leak to the media that you're negotiating and that you've made him a serious long-term offer (no need to disclose numbers)... the worst thing Bergevin can do is sit still and let Pacioretty's value fall lower and lower, but that's precisely what he seems to be doing.

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3 hours ago, 26NCounting said:

TBH I really hope MB blows the Paks trade, just another nail in his coffin.  I want to see the stands completely empty and this team finish dead last.  Pretty much the only chance we have of seeing this moron fired and let a true rebuild begin!

The problem is, Id bett good money that even that wont see him fired.   He's seemingly convinced Molson that he has a plan and its been bought, hook, line and sinker.   

At this point the best we can hope for is MB "lucking into" success.   Otherwise we're looking at some very very dark years - and a lot of them. The pacioretty trade could be a total bungle, or it could be a good move for the future (multiple young players & picks), or it could be a band-aid fix.   I worry that MB will chose option 1 or 3.  Option 2 is what we should be after. 

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3 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

^^ There were reports from pretty well-placed people that MB said outright that he told Pacioretty they wouldn't negotiate with him. Sure, all hearsay all ways around, but given Bergevin's history, it makes a lot of sense. Bergevin painted himself into corners with lots of other players and/or lowered their value through his actions: Subban, Galchenyuk, Briere, Kassian, Radulov, Markov, Desharnais. All players whom he's either publicly denigrated or where he's played hardball in the media or where he waited for their value to be at an all-time low before he finally traded them. No reason to doubt he's done exactly the same with Pacioretty.

At this point, if he hasn't said it, you'd think the smart move would be to come out and say he's negotiating with Pacioretty on a long-term deal and also to actually do that. You don't have to sign anything, but feel out what he wants and maybe make him an offer that makes sense to your club. I don't see the harm in offering Max 5-6 years at 7.5M per season. If he signs it, you have a guy where you're no longer pressed into trading him and where he probably has decent value on that type of contract. And if he doesn't sign it, you at least come out and let it leak to the media that you're negotiating and that you've made him a serious long-term offer (no need to disclose numbers)... the worst thing Bergevin can do is sit still and let Pacioretty's value fall lower and lower, but that's precisely what he seems to be doing.

7.5 for max ??:6185:

max is the new micheal ryder.  all he has is his shooting, and once that starts tapering off, which we very well may have seen happen last year, he is gonna be as useless as a rubber crutch. on top of that, hes a sulk and a floater.

hes gotta go. the return isnt gonna be anything special, but I dont even care.  we need to move on from captain invisible, and on a deeper level, stop pretending B level players are A's. 

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39 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

7.5 for max ??:6185:

max is the new micheal ryder.  all he has is his shooting, and once that starts tapering off, which we very well may have seen happen last year, he is gonna be as useless as a rubber crutch. on top of that, hes a sulk and a floater.

hes gotta go. the return isnt gonna be anything special, but I dont even care.  we need to move on from captain invisible, and on a deeper level, stop pretending B level players are A's. 

1. You're not going to get Max for less than 7M now. That's the new market. Maybe a year or two ago, he'd be signed to less. Not happening any more. The only place I see wiggle room is term. I think someone on the open market will give him 7x7M. But if you go a bit higher, maybe he goes shorter on term.

2. Max had a bad year last year. I am pretty confident he will rebound. He will almost certainly be a 25+ goal scorer if he's on a team with any talent. We have no top 6 centers and we have little to no ability on our defence in terms of moving the puck. If you can't feed your snipers from either the middle of the ice or the back end, it's pretty hard for them to score. No more Subban, no more Markov, no more Cole or Radulov... much trickier for Max to score, but doesn't mean he isn't good. He's been a 1st line player, an A level player, and a top scorer in the league over the past 5 years.

3. Yes, he probably won't be as good in 3-4 years, but if you can sign him and have him regain 25-30 goal form in the next year or two, he's very tradeable if he's got 3-4 years left on his deal. His value right now isn't fantastic because teams don't want a guy who's only got a year left on his deal and they know Bergevin's backed into a corner.

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3 hours ago, jeff33 said:

7.5 for max ??:6185:

max is the new micheal ryder.  all he has is his shooting, and once that starts tapering off, which we very well may have seen happen last year, he is gonna be as useless as a rubber crutch. on top of that, hes a sulk and a floater.

hes gotta go. the return isnt gonna be anything special, but I dont even care.  we need to move on from captain invisible, and on a deeper level, stop pretending B level players are A's. 

Yup.....he's got a bad attitude.

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7 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

1. You're not going to get Max for less than 7M now. That's the new market. Maybe a year or two ago, he'd be signed to less. Not happening any more. The only place I see wiggle room is term. I think someone on the open market will give him 7x7M. But if you go a bit higher, maybe he goes shorter on term.

2. Max had a bad year last year. I am pretty confident he will rebound. He will almost certainly be a 25+ goal scorer if he's on a team with any talent. We have no top 6 centers and we have little to no ability on our defence in terms of moving the puck. If you can't feed your snipers from either the middle of the ice or the back end, it's pretty hard for them to score. No more Subban, no more Markov, no more Cole or Radulov... much trickier for Max to score, but doesn't mean he isn't good. He's been a 1st line player, an A level player, and a top scorer in the league over the past 5 years.

3. Yes, he probably won't be as good in 3-4 years, but if you can sign him and have him regain 25-30 goal form in the next year or two, he's very tradeable if he's got 3-4 years left on his deal. His value right now isn't fantastic because teams don't want a guy who's only got a year left on his deal and they know Bergevin's backed into a corner.

1. correct. im not saying hes crazy to ask for that, im saying we'd be crazy to give it to him because

2.  "A" players dont need others to make them succeed , they make others succeed.  thats why subban excelled playing with hal gill and alexei emelin and now that we have weber its suddenly a gaping hole. 1st liner, sure,but never a true A level player. patch is not on the level with kane or ovechkin or tavares etc.  patch is on the level of jeff skinner and james van riemsdyk. B.

3. good point. your take on it in this sense is certainly logical, I dont want us to do it because hes been frustrating me for years andi just dont want to see him ever again in a habs jersey. this is admittedly my personal opinion based on my feelings, logically you definitely make a good point

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6 hours ago, jeff33 said:

1. correct. im not saying hes crazy to ask for that, im saying we'd be crazy to give it to him because

2.  "A" players dont need others to make them succeed , they make others succeed.  thats why subban excelled playing with hal gill and alexei emelin and now that we have weber its suddenly a gaping hole. 1st liner, sure,but never a true A level player. patch is not on the level with kane or ovechkin or tavares etc.  patch is on the level of jeff skinner and james van riemsdyk. B.

3. good point. your take on it in this sense is certainly logical, I dont want us to do it because hes been frustrating me for years andi just dont want to see him ever again in a habs jersey. this is admittedly my personal opinion based on my feelings, logically you definitely make a good point

I agree with a lot of what you said. Subban is without a doubt a guy who drives play and Max is a guy who needs some support to do his thing. But that's also a product of the roles they play. If you look at how he ranks as a goal scorer though, he is absolutely an A level player. He's been one of the best scorers in the league and he's been very consistent in that role over the past 5-6 years, last season aside. He's also done it without ever having a true 1C and for that reason he depended on the D to feed him quite a lot. Find me a player who has no talent at center AND no talent on defence to play with and who scores over 30 goals. Ovi's great, but he's got Backstrom and Kuznetsov and Carlson. Kane has had Toews and Hossa and Keith and Panarin and Anisimov and Saad to play with. I fully agree that both guys are better than Pacioretty, but I still think Pacioretty is an A level winger and he's a better player than Skinner and JVR.

It's a funny thing about Max, because I think he's been both underrated and overrated at the same time. I've found it very frustrating how Therrien managed to blame PK and Galchenyuk and Eller for things yet refuse to acknowledge when his favorites like Max and Markov and Plekanec made similar mistakes. So in that regard, I think he spent a lot of time being overrated by the coaching staff. But at the same time, there's a lot of talk about how he's not a top scorer and that's also not true. The numbers suggest he's been very consistently good and one of the top goal scorers in the league, on part with Tavares and Kane and so on. He's not as complete an offensive weapon as those guys but in terms of his ability to put the puck in the net, he's right there.

I think the Habs need to put aside personal feelings and do what's best for the team. Sure, if you can get a 1st rounder and a good prospect, you make the trade, but that doesn't look to be the case. You can't trade someone just for the sake of trading them and being able to say you made a change. It has to be to make the team better. Right now, trading him doesn't look to be a good option to that end. So you keep him to the deadline or you try to re-sign him. I don't necessarily think Max should be here for another 7 years, but term is what scares a lot of teams off from acquiring players, so all I'm saying is that you maybe offer a bit more money per season in exchange for cutting down the term, and that makes him a more tradeable asset than he is right now.

I also think that if Max isn't tradeable right now, the Habs need to do more to ship out Price and Weber in the next year to make it more feasible to retain Max for another couple of years if needed.

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On 8/3/2018 at 7:30 PM, jeff33 said:

7.5 for max ??:6185:

max is the new micheal ryder.  all he has is his shooting, and once that starts tapering off, which we very well may have seen happen last year, he is gonna be as useless as a rubber crutch. on top of that, hes a sulk and a floater.

hes gotta go. the return isnt gonna be anything special, but I dont even care.  we need to move on from captain invisible, and on a deeper level, stop pretending B level players are A's. 

I'm picking up with my fellow newfie here, sorry mods but this is a bonehead comment. Ryder done very well with Montreal and had three good years after he went to boston  and a season high 35 goals in dallas and a very respectable 10 goals in 27 games in his return.  No offence Jeff but Ryder has something patches will never have.  and guess what that is......  

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