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2017-18 If I Were GM


BigTed3
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18 minutes ago, eldag said:

okay here's an easy one I'll lob Bergevin's way ............... :4845:

 

Weber, Patches, and one of GallyA/Drouin plus our first 2018 draft pick for Karlssen. Karlssen is gonzo so there is no doubt Ottawa needs to deal. That leaves a big hole on their "D" and they cannot hope to land an equivalent offensive talent to replace Erik so presto ... you get the ultimate shut down guy who plays big minutes and bring in the scoring with Patches and GallyA or Drouin plus a high pick. They won't do much better than 3 high roster players from anywhere else and Montreal has the cap space for Karlssen. The beauty for Bergevin is he can justify trading Weber on this deal and in one fell swoop get rid of GallyA (possibly) or Drouin who is a bust and replace the offense and flair he lost with Subban leaving making people forget all about two disasterous trades plus saving his job!!!!!   I believe Karlssen is the one player who might turn the sad sack Habs into a contender again and he is still young enough to be a cornerstone. Not a bad core to start with the best defenseman and best goalie on the planet ......

 

I forgot to balance out the money component for Bergevin so he doesn't have to think about this too much. So we would be sending about $18MM in contracts to Ottawa and taking back $6.5MM. We have to absorb about $11.5MM. So we eat about $5MM between the contracts going their way and take on a Phaneuf or a Bobby Ryan contract ... both about $7MM deals lasting another 3 years give or take. We throw them a Jarobek or a Lehkonen depending on who we take back from them ... okay ... maybe Mete and not Jarobek ..... I tried.

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20 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

An aging veteran on a bad long-term contract with a recurring foot injury? That Shea Weber?

depends how desperate they are, but i would try to move him to a contender, he's still a top defenceman and could help any team on a cup run now. minus us ofcourse

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57 minutes ago, jwlk said:

depends how desperate they are, but i would try to move him to a contender, he's still a top defenceman and could help any team on a cup run now. minus us ofcourse

Yeah I have no doubt you could get assets for him.  It would probably be a mix of a young player, a bad contract (to offset cap) and a bunch of picks/prospects but I really dont think it would be tough to move him and get good value.

I do not believe MB will do it though because he's just delusional about this team it seems. 

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Elliotte Friedman reporting that Calgary is shopping for a winger... wonder if Pacioretty could be a fit there. They're reportedly disappointed in Sam Bennett, albeit they aren't enthusiastic about dealing him when his stock is low. But I wonder if we couldn't finagle a nice package out of the Flames in exchange for Pacioretty. Something like

Sam Bennett

Klimchuk

Valimaki

1st round pick 2018

 

We'd be getting 3 guys with lots of potential, the first perhaps deemed by some as a bust already but who might benefit from a change of scenery; the 2nd a potential 2nd line LW, and the 3rd a top-tier LHD prospect. Again, if Duchene can command the number of prospects and picks he did, this isn't really a stretch to ask for a package of this sort for Pacioretty...

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16 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Elliotte Friedman reporting that Calgary is shopping for a winger... wonder if Pacioretty could be a fit there. They're reportedly disappointed in Sam Bennett, albeit they aren't enthusiastic about dealing him when his stock is low. But I wonder if we couldn't finagle a nice package out of the Flames in exchange for Pacioretty. Something like

Sam Bennett

Klimchuk

Valimaki

1st round pick 2018

 

We'd be getting 3 guys with lots of potential, the first perhaps deemed by some as a bust already but who might benefit from a change of scenery; the 2nd a potential 2nd line LW, and the 3rd a top-tier LHD prospect. Again, if Duchene can command the number of prospects and picks he did, this isn't really a stretch to ask for a package of this sort for Pacioretty...

I like it & the return is pretty reasonable but I wish we could somehow get a centre out of the deal instead of Klimchuk or Bennett.  We'd be addressing a big hole at LD and between Valimaki, Jerabak & Mete our LD future suddenly looks waaaaay better.   But we'd be moving maybe our best trade piece & not getting a centre back.   I think we may have a couple of guys in the system (Ikonen, Poehling) who look to project as solid centres but Id like to add to that total & play the numbers a bit since our player development system seems to leave a lot to be desired... ;)

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

I like it & the return is pretty reasonable but I wish we could somehow get a centre out of the deal instead of Klimchuk or Bennett.  We'd be addressing a big hole at LD and between Valimaki, Jerabak & Mete our LD future suddenly looks waaaaay better.   But we'd be moving maybe our best trade piece & not getting a centre back.   I think we may have a couple of guys in the system (Ikonen, Poehling) who look to project as solid centres but Id like to add to that total & play the numbers a bit since our player development system seems to leave a lot to be desired... ;)

This is critical.  We have blown it already twice with subban and sergachev.  Look at Nashville. When they gave up Seth Jones they did it for Johansen.  Its been a big mistake trading our 2 absolute best trade chips without getting a center back. (yes I know drouin is playing center but he wasnt really one, and hasnt been able to convincingly fill the role)

It is a solid package which is also critical, which is also hard to swallow when thinking back on the subban trade. Like, if we absolutely had to get rid of him, it should have been a D, a C and a 1st coming back, instead of a declining old guy with a horrible contract. Anyway, I dont know how anyone can look at the duchene package and not want that instead of captain invisible. 

Isnt Bennett a center? I wish Edm would just give us the Nuge. 

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39 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

This is critical.  We have blown it already twice with subban and sergachev.  Look at Nashville. When they gave up Seth Jones they did it for Johansen.  Its been a big mistake trading our 2 absolute best trade chips without getting a center back. (yes I know drouin is playing center but he wasnt really one, and hasnt been able to convincingly fill the role)

It is a solid package which is also critical, which is also hard to swallow when thinking back on the subban trade. Like, if we absolutely had to get rid of him, it should have been a D, a C and a 1st coming back, instead of a declining old guy with a horrible contract. Anyway, I dont know how anyone can look at the duchene package and not want that instead of captain invisible. 

Isnt Bennett a center? I wish Edm would just give us the Nuge. 

i agree 100% we keep giving up good pieces and not fixing what has been one of our biggest issues for about 20 years a top center! if we are going to move Max we better get a center!

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Sam Bennett is a center. He's been moved around to wing the way Drouin and Galchenyuk have, but he prefers to play center. Maybe we've heard that tune before, but I think no matter what trade you make, you're taking a gamble. If we deal Pacioretty, either we're getting a lesser player or else we're getting a guy with potential who can grow into the position. I don't see teams in contention trading for Pacioretty and dealing away a key cog in their plan (i.e. Calgary is not trading us Monahan). Teams not in contention probably see less of a need for Pacioretty. If you're looking to make a 1-for-1 swap, like Pacioretty for RNH or for MacKinnon or for O'Reilly, it's likely more a hockey deal that you make in the off-season, when the other team is re-setting and able to re-sign Pacioretty to an extension at the time of the trade. If we're looking at an in-season trade, I think the goal is to get a haul of younger players and picks to fill multiple needs. I'd personally rather get 3-4 young pieces rather than 1 center the same age as Pacioretty.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Sam Bennett is a center. He's been moved around to wing the way Drouin and Galchenyuk have, but he prefers to play center. Maybe we've heard that tune before, but I think no matter what trade you make, you're taking a gamble. If we deal Pacioretty, either we're getting a lesser player or else we're getting a guy with potential who can grow into the position. I don't see teams in contention trading for Pacioretty and dealing away a key cog in their plan (i.e. Calgary is not trading us Monahan). Teams not in contention probably see less of a need for Pacioretty. If you're looking to make a 1-for-1 swap, like Pacioretty for RNH or for MacKinnon or for O'Reilly, it's likely more a hockey deal that you make in the off-season, when the other team is re-setting and able to re-sign Pacioretty to an extension at the time of the trade. If we're looking at an in-season trade, I think the goal is to get a haul of younger players and picks to fill multiple needs. I'd personally rather get 3-4 young pieces rather than 1 center the same age as Pacioretty.

I agree with this too just have to make sure a very good future center prospect is among them.

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2 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree with this too just have to make sure a very good future center prospect is among them.

For me, it could be either a possible #1 center or a #1 D man. If Tampa offered me Sergachev back for Pacioretty, I'd make the deal. If Columbus offered Seth Jones or Werenski plus something else, I'd make the deal. If Colorado offered Makar or Ottawa offered Chabot or so on (and those teams won't do that, but just as examples), I'd be very interested. We have such a hole on our D that it's also a need frankly. Whether we address the center hole or the D hole first bothers me less, as long as we're making a good trade for a younger player who can fill a top-end position for a long time. Unfortunately, out strength right now is at wing, and we all know that D and center are more important positions. A #1 D man is on the ice for 26-28 minutes a night and can really dictate the flow of the game.

As for the Calgary deal I threw out, I'm not even saying that's the best deal out there nor the one I'd make. I just threw that one out because of the rumor that Calgary wanted to go after a scoring winger, so there could be a fit there as a trade partner. Ideally, you want to address both the D and center issues if you can do it with one trade and while Bennett is far from my first choice, I think going after a Bennett and a Vilimaki, along with some other pieces, gives you some buffer to have at least one guy you land be a hit. That's the thing with the trade though, we deal a sure thing and a win-now piece on a very good contract in Pacioretty in exchange for future pieces that are less of a sure thing but with upside for the future. I think you could also see what teams like Winnipeg and St. Louis and Edmonton are willing to offer, for example. They also have a lot of interesting younger NHL players in their systems that could be good fits for us.

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27 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

For me, it could be either a possible #1 center or a #1 D man. If Tampa offered me Sergachev back for Pacioretty, I'd make the deal. If Columbus offered Seth Jones or Werenski plus something else, I'd make the deal. If Colorado offered Makar or Ottawa offered Chabot or so on (and those teams won't do that, but just as examples), I'd be very interested. We have such a hole on our D that it's also a need frankly. Whether we address the center hole or the D hole first bothers me less, as long as we're making a good trade for a younger player who can fill a top-end position for a long time. Unfortunately, out strength right now is at wing, and we all know that D and center are more important positions. A #1 D man is on the ice for 26-28 minutes a night and can really dictate the flow of the game.

As for the Calgary deal I threw out, I'm not even saying that's the best deal out there nor the one I'd make. I just threw that one out because of the rumor that Calgary wanted to go after a scoring winger, so there could be a fit there as a trade partner. Ideally, you want to address both the D and center issues if you can do it with one trade and while Bennett is far from my first choice, I think going after a Bennett and a Vilimaki, along with some other pieces, gives you some buffer to have at least one guy you land be a hit. That's the thing with the trade though, we deal a sure thing and a win-now piece on a very good contract in Pacioretty in exchange for future pieces that are less of a sure thing but with upside for the future. I think you could also see what teams like Winnipeg and St. Louis and Edmonton are willing to offer, for example. They also have a lot of interesting younger NHL players in their systems that could be good fits for us.

With 8 goals in 34 games I'm not convinced a 29 year old Pacioretty is a sure thing anymore. I wouldn't expect 'too' much  for him in a trade.

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4 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

With 8 goals in 34 games I'm not convinced a 29 year old Pacioretty is a sure thing anymore. I wouldn't expect 'too' much  for him in a trade.

I guarantee you there's a market for a perennial 30-goal scorer who's still under 30 years old and on a friendly contract that has no long-term risk.

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20 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

As for the Calgary deal I threw out, I'm not even saying that's the best deal out there nor the one I'd make. I just threw that one out because of the rumor that Calgary wanted to go after a scoring winger, so there could be a fit there as a trade partner. Ideally, you want to address both the D and center issues if you can do it with one trade and while Bennett is far from my first choice, I think going after a Bennett and a Vilimaki, along with some other pieces, gives you some buffer to have at least one guy you land be a hit. 

2

Hey Ted. Trust me I'd loove it if this trade went through, I just don't see Calgary biting on it. First, they don't have a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft due to the Hamonic trade. They already have a bonafide #1 LW, Patches has two years left on his contract, Bennett is on a short but recent tear, Valimaki is an offensive beast, idk I just don't think they pull the trigger on that. I don't know if you partake on reddit much but I posted something earlier on the r/Habs page about Pacioretty. I'll head over to the Pacioretty player thread and plug it there, was curious what your thoughts are on it. 

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21 hours ago, habs1952 said:

With 8 goals in 34 games I'm not convinced a 29 year old Pacioretty is a sure thing anymore. I wouldn't expect 'too' much  for him in a trade.

Completely agree. Based on how he has been playing the return for him alone will be underwhelming. 

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2 hours ago, loyalhabsfan said:

Hey Ted. Trust me I'd loove it if this trade went through, I just don't see Calgary biting on it. First, they don't have a 1st round pick in the upcoming draft due to the Hamonic trade. They already have a bonafide #1 LW, Patches has two years left on his contract, Bennett is on a short but recent tear, Valimaki is an offensive beast, idk I just don't think they pull the trigger on that. I don't know if you partake on reddit much but I posted something earlier on the r/Habs page about Pacioretty. I'll head over to the Pacioretty player thread and plug it there, was curious what your thoughts are on it. 

I don't know what Calgary will or will not accept. Obviously, if they don't have a 1st rounder next year, that would need to be adjusted. But you see this deal as too big an ask, others see this as not enough because there's no established center in the trade. But look at what Colorado got for Duchene: a ton of top prospects and picks. Sure, we'd be getting a number of top-end prospects, but there's no sure thing in there, whereas Pacioretty is an established elite scorer in the league and still under 30. Even if he's struggling, there's a market for him. The ask I suggested is just a starting point for a trade, obviously subject to negotiation. But it's essentially the equivalent of 4 first rounders, which is what a team would owe us if they were to sign a player like Pacioretty as an RFA. As I said, just one example of something we can envision asking for if we decide to deal Pacioretty. The same can be said to a lesser degree about dealing Weber or Price... we're under no obligation to trade them, but I think we are under obligation to ask around about what we can get for them.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't know what Calgary will or will not accept. Obviously, if they don't have a 1st rounder next year, that would need to be adjusted. But you see this deal as too big an ask, others see this as not enough because there's no established center in the trade. But look at what Colorado got for Duchene: a ton of top prospects and picks. Sure, we'd be getting a number of top-end prospects, but there's no sure thing in there, whereas Pacioretty is an established elite scorer in the league and still under 30. Even if he's struggling, there's a market for him. The ask I suggested is just a starting point for a trade, obviously subject to negotiation. But it's essentially the equivalent of 4 first rounders, which is what a team would owe us if they were to sign a player like Pacioretty as an RFA. As I said, just one example of something we can envision asking for if we decide to deal Pacioretty. The same can be said to a lesser degree about dealing Weber or Price... we're under no obligation to trade them, but I think we are under obligation to ask around about what we can get for them.

You will never, ever, get 4 first rounders for Pacioretty. You would be lucky to get a 1st, a 2nd and some spare parts.

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3 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

You will never, ever, get 4 first rounders for Pacioretty. You would be lucky to get a 1st, a 2nd and some spare parts.

You never know. I might have said the same thing about Duchene, but Colorado got the equivalent of 2 firsts, 3 seconds, a third, and a back-up goalie. In his favor, Duchene is two years younger and is a center, but Pacioretty is a better offensive player and on a better contract over the same amount of leftover term. So I don't think it's completely out of the question. Teams get desperate around the trade deadline. If you're a club that feels it's one or two players away from being a Cup favorite and you have the ability to find an elite scorer who you can fit under the cap easily, well you might just pay more for that convenience. Not saying it will happen, but how many players of Pacioretty's caliber are going to be available at the deadline? I don't think there's any harm in making a big ask and seeing which teams are willing to bid against each other.

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3 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

You never know. I might have said the same thing about Duchene, but Colorado got the equivalent of 2 firsts, 3 seconds, a third, and a back-up goalie. In his favor, Duchene is two years younger and is a center, but Pacioretty is a better offensive player and on a better contract over the same amount of leftover term. So I don't think it's completely out of the question. Teams get desperate around the trade deadline. If you're a club that feels it's one or two players away from being a Cup favorite and you have the ability to find an elite scorer who you can fit under the cap easily, well you might just pay more for that convenience. Not saying it will happen, but how many players of Pacioretty's caliber are going to be available at the deadline? I don't think there's any harm in making a big ask and seeing which teams are willing to bid against each other.

From what I've seen of Pacioretty so far this season I'd say you're overrating him.

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3 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

From what I've seen of Pacioretty so far this season I'd say you're overrating him.

Based on this one season, yes. But I don't think GM's will look only at this one season. They'll look at his body of work and they'll look at his contract as being a friendly solution to scoring at the deadline. Look at recent history... Ottawa just paid a boatload for Duchene, who wasn't good at all last year. Bergevin threw a truckload of money and term to Alzner based on what? The Oilers gave a lot of money to Lucic for a mediocre body of work. Boston went after David Backes after he had a down year, and he was even worse last season after they signed him. The Isles did the same signing Andrew Ladd. The point being that teams will overpay guys and overpay for guys based on their recent pasts, not just on what they've done this season. I personally don't believe Pacioretty is done. I think he might still get to 25-30 goals this year, and I certainly feel like he's capable of 30+ next year no matter what happens this season. Maybe not everyone will, but I think there are GM's who don't feel he's done and who think he could be a key cog on a good contract to complement an already-strong line-up. Throw Pacioretty next to Monahan-Gaudreau or put him next to Crosby or next to McDavid or Stamkos or Matthews or Johansson or Jamie Benn and Seguin and I think there are GM's who will feel they have the linemates to put him back on track.

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46 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

From what I've seen of Pacioretty so far this season I'd say you're overrating him.

I m not a big fan of the guy but in all fairness he doesn't have a legitimate # 1C nor does he have ANY D men who feed him the puck . The one he had last yr is PLaying in Russia and the one the yr before is playing in Nashville.

Looks like JD and AG aren't cut out for being C's

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