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2017-18 If I Were GM


BigTed3
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I meant Pacioretty isn't enough for Klefbom and RNH. Full agreement he's miles better than RNH but

2 hours ago, maas_art said:

I know what you're saying and I think it would take a smart GM to spin it, but I honestly think you're undervaluing Pacioretty.  
Goals scored in the NHL In the last 5 years:

Oh yeah no argument from me here, I certainly don't think Pacioretty should be traded just for the sake of it. I meant Pacioretty isn't enough for both Klefbom and RNH. He's miles better and more valuable than RNH for sure but I think we'd have to add for both RNH and Klefbom.

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

I know what you're saying and I think it would take a smart GM to spin it, but I honestly think you're undervaluing Pacioretty.  
Goals scored in the NHL In the last 5 years:

1. Ovechkin
2. Pavelski
3. Crosby
4. Pacioretty
5. Benn
6. Tarasenko
7. Kane
8. Seguin
9. Tavares
10. Marchand

Also, Pacioretty is only 4 goals back of both Crosby and Pavelski  - had he'd started off better this year could actually be second. Im not saying he's as good, or better than any of the other names but I think you could demand a lot more than just RNH for him in return. 

Pacioretty is nowhere near the level of those two leaders. 

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1 hour ago, Noob616 said:

Edmonton just sent Yamamoto back to junior. Their RW depth is now Draisaitl and...Kassian?

Gallagher+Pacioretty for Klefbom+RNH lets goooooo

Gallagher+Pacioretty (20 PTs.)for Klefbom+RNH (12 PTs.) Nooooooo :P

 

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On 11/6/2017 at 8:42 AM, Noob616 said:

Edmonton just sent Yamamoto back to junior. Their RW depth is now Draisaitl and...Kassian?

Gallagher+Pacioretty for Klefbom+RNH lets goooooo

Youre giving up way too much there. 

I think you can do Pacioretty +  Pick or prospect and land those 2. 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Youre giving up way too much there. 

I think you can do Pacioretty +  Pick or prospect and land those 2. 

I think the world of Pacioretty but I don't think I'm undervaluing him. We're not getting the 1D and 2C (both age 24 and signed long term) of a team that wants to contend for a soon to be UFA Pacioretty (who they can't afford to re sign) and a prospect. I guess anything could happen, I would have said the same if a Devils fan suggested trading a 2nd pair defender for Taylor Hall, or if a Nashville fan suggested trading......uh..............never mind....but I don't think even Chiarelli would give up two core players for 1.5 years of Pacioretty.

Klefbom is a 24 year old #1D signed for 6 years at 4.1M, he's an insanely valuable asset to a team and the exact kind of player to get back in a Pacioretty trade. In a vacuum I'd rather have Gallagher than RNH but we're still really thin at center and he's 24 and signed for 4 more years, and it's not like RNH is another Danault level player. Drouin-RNH-Danault-Plekanec is good center depth and along with a Klefbom-Petry / Mete-Weber top 4 I think it solves a lot of short and long term issues for the team. 

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4 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

I think the world of Pacioretty but I don't think I'm undervaluing him. We're not getting the 1D and 2C (both age 24 and signed long term) of a team that wants to contend for a soon to be UFA Pacioretty (who they can't afford to re sign) and a prospect. I guess anything could happen, I would have said the same if a Devils fan suggested trading a 2nd pair defender for Taylor Hall, or if a Nashville fan suggested trading......uh..............never mind....but I don't think even Chiarelli would give up two core players for 1.5 years of Pacioretty.

Klefbom is a 24 year old #1D signed for 6 years at 4.1M, he's an insanely valuable asset to a team and the exact kind of player to get back in a Pacioretty trade. In a vacuum I'd rather have Gallagher than RNH but we're still really thin at center and he's 24 and signed for 4 more years, and it's not like RNH is another Danault level player. Drouin-RNH-Danault-Plekanec is good center depth and along with a Klefbom-Petry / Mete-Weber top 4 I think it solves a lot of short and long term issues for the team. 

It is likely patches and I think your likely going to see something like RNH and Nurse or Puuarvi and Nurse.

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1 hour ago, Noob616 said:

I think the world of Pacioretty but I don't think I'm undervaluing him. We're not getting the 1D and 2C (both age 24 and signed long term) of a team that wants to contend for a soon to be UFA Pacioretty (who they can't afford to re sign) and a prospect. I guess anything could happen, I would have said the same if a Devils fan suggested trading a 2nd pair defender for Taylor Hall, or if a Nashville fan suggested trading......uh..............never mind....but I don't think even Chiarelli would give up two core players for 1.5 years of Pacioretty.

Klefbom is a 24 year old #1D signed for 6 years at 4.1M, he's an insanely valuable asset to a team and the exact kind of player to get back in a Pacioretty trade. In a vacuum I'd rather have Gallagher than RNH but we're still really thin at center and he's 24 and signed for 4 more years, and it's not like RNH is another Danault level player. Drouin-RNH-Danault-Plekanec is good center depth and along with a Klefbom-Petry / Mete-Weber top 4 I think it solves a lot of short and long term issues for the team. 

I understand what you're saying but I think that Pacioretty would bring a massive haul in a deal.  Logically, you're right 1.5 years is all you can really count on, but GMs, who may not last that long, often dont see things that way.  What Chiarelli likely sees is a guy who scored (nearly) 40 goals several times playing with Plekanec, Danault and DD.  Imagine him next to McDavid?    

RNH is a great player but has never lived up to his potential and Klefbom has not proven he's a top 2 dman yet. 


Like i said above though, you're going to have to go Pacioretty +  to get them.  Maybe Mete, Maybe a 1st I dont know but i never said it was a 1 for 2 deal. 

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21 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

If I were MB, I would at least entertain the thought of giving Iginla a PTO, with performance bonuses. Give him a 10 game tryout, and see what happens. 

 

2 hours ago, Regis22 said:

Iggy's too slow for the current NHL, IMO.

And Hemsky should be sent to the minors

Ryder. Briere. Parenteau. Semin. Fleischmann. Hemsky. Marc Bergevin has taken shots on a lot of players who used to be pretty decent but who were on the downside of their careers. He hasn't had much success in that department. I don't see Iginla being able to produce, and he's not really fast enough to keep up with the pace of the NHL any more. I don't see how he adds much to our current line-up. MB needs to address the left side of his D and the 2nd line center slot. 3rd/4th line wingers are not a priority.

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On 11/12/2017 at 5:24 PM, BigTed3 said:

 

Ryder. Briere. Parenteau. Semin. Fleischmann. Hemsky. Marc Bergevin has taken shots on a lot of players who used to be pretty decent but who were on the downside of their careers. He hasn't had much success in that department. I don't see Iginla being able to produce, and he's not really fast enough to keep up with the pace of the NHL any more. I don't see how he adds much to our current line-up. MB needs to address the left side of his D and the 2nd line center slot. 3rd/4th line wingers are not a priority.

Yeah, the only player over the past little while I would have taken a chance on was Jagr but for whatever reason MB never wanted to. I imagine he has some sort of personal dislike for him, since that seems to be the basis of a lot of his moves as GM.

I agree with you re: wingers.  We are set on wingers and RD and 3rd pairing D imho.  I think we are possibly ok with our centres (although id really try moving Hudon to centre at this stage)  but our #1LD is a huge problem and it seems like MB either doesnt realize it, or doesnt know how to solve it. 

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yeah, the only player over the past little while I would have taken a chance on was Jagr but for whatever reason MB never wanted to. I imagine he has some sort of personal dislike for him, since that seems to be the basis of a lot of his moves as GM.

I agree with you re: wingers.  We are set on wingers and RD and 3rd pairing D imho.  I think we are possibly ok with our centres (although id really try moving Hudon to centre at this stage)  but our #1LD is a huge problem and it seems like MB either doesnt realize it, or doesnt know how to solve it. 

If you believe the rumors, Bergevin and Jagr apparently didn't get along when they were both players, and MB doesn't want Jagr on his team because he has a personal dislike for him. Who knows...

I think Bergevin does know he has a problem on left D, but he just has a number of problems and doesn't seem to know where to start. At every position, he has opted for the philosophy that quantity equals quality, and that just hasn't worked.

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On 2017-11-02 at 7:06 PM, habs1952 said:

Pacioretty is nowhere near the level of those two leaders. 

No kidding! An easy way to look at a comparison would be to ask the question how many of their current teams would trade their guy for Patches ... straight up?

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8 hours ago, eldag said:

No kidding! An easy way to look at a comparison would be to ask the question how many of their current teams would trade their guy for Patches ... straight up?

1. We're not asking teams to trade their top players for ours.

2. You can't really compare centers and wingers that easily, because a good center is more valuable than a good winger.

What we want is to trade Pacioretty (who is on a very favorable contract) to a contender in exchange for a haul, hopefully as good or better than what Colorado got for Duchene. That should be our becnhmark. Sure Duchene is a center, but Pacioretty is a better scorer and he's on a friendlier contract. Look at what the Pens did by adding Kessel. Flip Pacioretty to a team like Anaheim, St. Louis, Washington, Edmonton, Columbus, the Islanders, or so on and they add a top 6 forward on a cheap contract who could help push them farther through the playoffs. In exchange, we take their picks and prospects.

 

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

1. We're not asking teams to trade their top players for ours.

2. You can't really compare centers and wingers that easily, because a good center is more valuable than a good winger.

What we want is to trade Pacioretty (who is on a very favorable contract) to a contender in exchange for a haul, hopefully as good or better than what Colorado got for Duchene. That should be our becnhmark. Sure Duchene is a center, but Pacioretty is a better scorer and he's on a friendlier contract. Look at what the Pens did by adding Kessel. Flip Pacioretty to a team like Anaheim, St. Louis, Washington, Edmonton, Columbus, the Islanders, or so on and they add a top 6 forward on a cheap contract who could help push them farther through the playoffs. In exchange, we take their picks and prospects.

 

All of which has what to do with my post? I was simply agreeing with another poster’s remarks about the value of this player. Is it the role of a moderator to throw their weight around and intimidate other posters? Seems a strange role for a fan website. Anybody reading my post can see I am not advocating trading Patches for players on the list. My past posts have been complimentary to this player’s contribution to the team and I have advocated trading him for assets while his value is relatively high. What is the purpose of your post? 

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6 hours ago, eldag said:

All of which has what to do with my post? I was simply agreeing with another poster’s remarks about the value of this player. Is it the role of a moderator to throw their weight around and intimidate other posters? Seems a strange role for a fan website. Anybody reading my post can see I am not advocating trading Patches for players on the list. My past posts have been complimentary to this player’s contribution to the team and I have advocated trading him for assets while his value is relatively high. What is the purpose of your post? 

Wasn't a criticism of your post at all. I was pointing out that we don't need to worry about whether Max stacks up against those other top players in a trade because that's not the trade we need to make happen. I don't understand what you're upset about.

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As an exercise for myself. These are the only players I see as keepers right now:

  • Jonathan Drouin
  • Alex Galchenyuk
  • Artturi Lehkonen
  • Victor Mete

Even adding Mete on there is a product of how bad the rest of the defense is. It's sad to consider an entire organization and I can only find four players that I would really, really want to keep.

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2 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

As an exercise for myself. These are the only players I see as keepers right now:

  • Jonathan Drouin
  • Alex Galchenyuk
  • Artturi Lehkonen
  • Victor Mete

Even adding Mete on there is a product of how bad the rest of the defense is. It's sad to consider an entire organization and I can only find four players that I would really, really want to keep.

exactly. and you could maybe throw hudon in there too. how about this....take it a step further. if any of those guys had to be part of a package for lets say a tavares....we wouldnt even care. 

like i said a while back, this is a teardown. top to bottom. every single one of these guys can go. 

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3 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

As an exercise for myself. These are the only players I see as keepers right now:

  • Jonathan Drouin
  • Alex Galchenyuk
  • Artturi Lehkonen
  • Victor Mete

Even adding Mete on there is a product of how bad the rest of the defense is. It's sad to consider an entire organization and I can only find four players that I would really, really want to keep.

I agree with those 4 and would probably add a few guys like Danault, Hudon, Scherbak, Poeling & Ikonen   - not because any of them are untouchable or will ever be elite but I dont think you're ever going to get close to full value for them so there's no point in moving them.  As Jeff said, if you're putting some of them in a package for a guy like Tavares, fine but trading them for the sake of trading them makes no sense.  And anyone else is fair game in my book. 

The crappy part is that i would be pretty confident in saying that one of those guys (Galchenyuk) will most likely be traded when we really should be trying to find dance partners for guys like Pacioretty, Weber etc. 



 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

I agree with those 4 and would probably add a few guys like Danault, Hudon, Scherbak, Poeling & Ikonen   - not because any of them are untouchable or will ever be elite but I dont think you're ever going to get close to full value for them so there's no point in moving them.  As Jeff said, if you're putting some of them in a package for a guy like Tavares, fine but trading them for the sake of trading them makes no sense.  And anyone else is fair game in my book. 

The crappy part is that i would be pretty confident in saying that one of those guys (Galchenyuk) will most likely be traded when we really should be trying to find dance partners for guys like Pacioretty, Weber etc. 



 

This. The guys who still have value to build around for the future are ones who aren't past their prime... so for me, the guys who I'd look to build around (albeit with no untouchables if the right trade comes along) would leave the base of the line-up as

 

Lehkonen-Drouin-???

Hudon-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

???-Danault-???

Carr-???-???

 

And we can argue about whether Drouin or Galchenyuk play center or wing depending on who else you can fill in. But as it is, I think you have at least 6-7 forwards you can keep, many of whom still slot into potential top 6 roles. This isn't to say you can't upgrade on those too, but it's a start. All of these guys can still be playing at a high level for another 4-5 years. The guys you look to trade are Pacioretty, Plekanec, Shaw, Weber, Petry, Schlemko, Alzner, Benn, and Price.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

This. The guys who still have value to build around for the future are ones who aren't past their prime... so for me, the guys who I'd look to build around (albeit with no untouchables if the right trade comes along) would leave the base of the line-up as

 

Lehkonen-Drouin-???

Hudon-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

???-Danault-???

Carr-???-???

 

And we can argue about whether Drouin or Galchenyuk play center or wing depending on who else you can fill in. But as it is, I think you have at least 6-7 forwards you can keep, many of whom still slot into potential top 6 roles. This isn't to say you can't upgrade on those too, but it's a start. All of these guys can still be playing at a high level for another 4-5 years. The guys you look to trade are Pacioretty, Plekanec, Shaw, Weber, Petry, Schlemko, Alzner, Benn, and Price.

Gallagher is a guy id trade even though i love him.  He's having a huge bounce back year, his value is probably as close to as high as its ever been - but - how long can he keep it up? If we could get solid value for him I would absolutely move him although he's young enough to think we can still probably get some good mileage out of him if there are no trades available. 

Craig Button suggested we should pitch trading Carey Price to the oilers.  He seemed to feel like a starting point for fair value would be Draitsatl straight up, or RNH + young dman.   Id definitely be listening if that was the case.  I think Edmonton may be interested.  Im not sure if MB would do it though.   I do like your idea of trading Price to the Preds and then maybe Weber to the Oil though.  With those 2 trades you could Potentially end up with:

Drouin - Draitsatl - Lehkonen
Hudon - Galchenyuk - Gallagher

Nurse/Klefbom - Mete

Thats not a bad top 6 or a bad top pairing going forward. 

 

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