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4 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

It's like they're writing about me.  I never went so far as to get a tattoo so there's nothing to remove, but I've made a point to tell my family that I'm not really interested in any more Habs kitsch for stocking stuffers.  I still try to catch games when I can but it's becoming a less and less frequent occurrence.  When management does things that make watching the games less fun, it shouldn't come as any surprise that fewer people are going to be watching.

It is amazing.   I mean we went through some dark times in the 90s but there was a sense that while Houle messed things up, the BOG stepped in (way too late, mind you) and then we spent a decade plus trying to right the ship.   We finally got a really good mix of veterans and prospects (right around the time both BG and PG were fired) and then there were such high hopes with the hiring of MB.  

Now, 6 years later, I am not convinced we're even as good as we were then, let alone better. 

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5 hours ago, maas_art said:

It is amazing.   I mean we went through some dark times in the 90s but there was a sense that while Houle messed things up, the BOG stepped in (way too late, mind you) and then we spent a decade plus trying to right the ship.   We finally got a really good mix of veterans and prospects (right around the time both BG and PG were fired) and then there were such high hopes with the hiring of MB.  

Now, 6 years later, I am not convinced we're even as good as we were then, let alone better. 

The odds of us winning a Cup in the next 5 years are definitely worse now than when MB took over. He's made a huge mess of a very promising situation.

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Bergevin seems to get and get rid of the players his coach wants. His major mistake, was hiring Therrien. Eller might still be here, and Pk would but that is done and over with. Crying over spilled milk doesn't clean up the mess. The defense he seems to be building is a defense that Julien wants; a 2011 bruins wall of defense. I'm of the mind that maybe he is holding out to let some of the young guns make the team (Hudon, Reway, Scherbak, Etc). Up front the scoring is Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Pacioretty, Drouin, Lehkonen, "Plekanec" maybe Byron, and Hemsky will probably get 10 to 15. The other Forwards will probably get 1 lol. There are a lot of shot blockers to help Price. The real problem that created this quagmire are the politics and taxes in Quebec. I like to believe or pretend that Bergevin is doing what he can. 

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

The odds of us winning a Cup in the next 5 years are definitely worse now than when MB took over. He's made a huge mess of a very promising situation.

for sure.  Is it possible we could win? yes.  Is it likely? no.   In order for us to win, with the roster we have right now, we would most likely need career seasons from guys who are clearly in the decline, breakout seasons from young players and Price to stand on his head for 4 playoff rounds.  

So is it possible? yes.  But it sure aint the way to build a team. 

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The deal is this: even if MB was replaced today with someone with an actual vision, what's the goal? Is it to win a Cup immediately or is it to re-build on the fly? To win now, we have some parts, but we're in dire need of 1-2 top 6 centers and 1-2 puck-moving LHD. The scoring depth is not balanced (lots of wingers, not enough centers) and the D has been completely revamped but not in a good way (too old and slow for the current NHL). So again, I'll come back to what I would keep if I were taking over as GM:

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

Drouin-_______-Lehkonen

Hudon-Danault-Hemsky

Carr-McCarron-Shaw

Mitchell

 

I don't really see a role for Plekanec or Byron or Martinsen. Looking at that group, you could argue the majority will still be useful for the next few years in those roles, with the exception of Hemsky and maybe Mitchell. But at least up front, if you can grab a scoring center in his early to mid 20's, you have the core there. You just have to be willing to use AG at center.

The bigger problem is on D. I'd retain

_____ - Weber

_____ - Petry

Schlemko-Benn

Davidson or Jerabek

But look at those holes. I'd be fine with Alzner as the 3rd LHD too, but why overpay someone to play that position when you have others who can do it for cheaper? Can Davidson or Jerabek surprise and move into the top 4 eventually? Maybe but not likely. Could Juulsen make the jump? Doubtful, and he's a righty. Mete? One of the guys we just drafted? Sure, these guys could all be options down the line but to be a true top 4 D man now, you need to be able to skate and move the puck, and only Petry does that on our current roster. Finding two guys to fill these voids will be tough sledding, and by the time you do this, your current set of guys will be too old and even slower. How many of those guys will still be here and effective in 3 years or 5 years? Maybe none. It's a huge issue that MB has handicapped us with. If he had kept Subban, Beaulieu, Sergachev, and Pateryn, you have 4 guys who could have filled out your D for the next 3-5 years easily, probably as your top pairing (Sergachev-Subban and lower pairing Beaulieu-Pateryn). Can't say the same for the guys we have left...

 

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

The deal is this: even if MB was replaced today with someone with an actual vision, what's the goal? Is it to win a Cup immediately or is it to re-build on the fly? To win now, we have some parts, but we're in dire need of 1-2 top 6 centers and 1-2 puck-moving LHD. The scoring depth is not balanced (lots of wingers, not enough centers) and the D has been completely revamped but not in a good way (too old and slow for the current NHL). So again, I'll come back to what I would keep if I were taking over as GM:

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

Drouin-_______-Lehkonen

Hudon-Danault-Hemsky

Carr-McCarron-Shaw

Mitchell

 

I don't really see a role for Plekanec or Byron or Martinsen. Looking at that group, you could argue the majority will still be useful for the next few years in those roles, with the exception of Hemsky and maybe Mitchell. But at least up front, if you can grab a scoring center in his early to mid 20's, you have the core there. You just have to be willing to use AG at center.

The bigger problem is on D. I'd retain

_____ - Weber

_____ - Petry

Schlemko-Benn

Davidson or Jerabek

But look at those holes. I'd be fine with Alzner as the 3rd LHD too, but why overpay someone to play that position when you have others who can do it for cheaper? Can Davidson or Jerabek surprise and move into the top 4 eventually? Maybe but not likely. Could Juulsen make the jump? Doubtful, and he's a righty. Mete? One of the guys we just drafted? Sure, these guys could all be options down the line but to be a true top 4 D man now, you need to be able to skate and move the puck, and only Petry does that on our current roster. Finding two guys to fill these voids will be tough sledding, and by the time you do this, your current set of guys will be too old and even slower. How many of those guys will still be here and effective in 3 years or 5 years? Maybe none. It's a huge issue that MB has handicapped us with. If he had kept Subban, Beaulieu, Sergachev, and Pateryn, you have 4 guys who could have filled out your D for the next 3-5 years easily, probably as your top pairing (Sergachev-Subban and lower pairing Beaulieu-Pateryn). Can't say the same for the guys we have left...

 

Respectfully, I have to disagree with your whole premise. This team, IMHO, has 3 legit top 6 forwards in its line-up who are the three you list as the top line. However, GallyA has not shown he is a legit top 6 centre. Drouin and Lehkonen have shown potential but top 6 on a contending team? I think not. The rest are interchangeable drek that any team in the league can match or best.

Defence is a disaster area which soon will require a visit from the Prime Minister wearing a concerned look, a hard hat, and a hazmat suit. Weber MUST be traded now in order to realize any decent value for him! In order to fix the mess you rightfully point out that has been made with this team, one must be bold and think outside the box! We cannot fix anything by being committed to same old same old and expect good things to happen. The environment is too competitive and too many other teams have smart and forward thinking GM's with a plan to better their teams, not bail out the Canadiens.

You say we need a young scoring centre ... actually we need two ..... but let's start with one. Draisaitl fits the bill and he has not yet re-upped ...... so let's act now! First ... Bergevin must be fired because he will never trade Weber and thereby close the book on what the rest of the hockey universe already knows was one of the worst hockey trades ever made ...... Ironically ... if he could turn Weber and a top pick and say Gallagher into Draisaitl, he would successfully have applied some Chantelle #5 onto this festering boil of a trade! All of a sudden our top 6 looks a lot better as we would have one of the best young centres in the league anchoring our top line.

But that would leave us far from finished as the defense is now a bigger mess and we have an over priced position in goal. I love Carey but we have had him for 10 years and won zip with him. Plus .... he is about to get horrendously expensive and his long term health worries me. So ..... TRADE HIM NOW....... if there are any takers. This would be VERY tricky as his new contract may scare away most if not all GM's and worst of all, that boat anchor of a contract diminishes his trade value unless you can find just the right team which is close to contending but need goaltending ....... HALLO Winnipeg!!!!!!!!!!! Winnipeg have Steve Mason and Hellebyck so perhaps a deal for Price where we take back Mason and say Jacob Trouba ... a serviceable young "D" which would see about a net $3MM to Wpg's cap hit when Price's new contract kicks in ... we might have to also throw in a pick and or a drek defenseman to balance out. NOW ... with the Price contract off the books and Lindgren and Mason manning the pipes ... you can go big game hunting ... not this year .... but next year with Plekanec's cap hit also falling away ........

Our defensive situation this season would be fluid and weak but that is why it is called rebuilding and next season we go in with probably a decent lottery pick and great cap room to re-arm our arsenal ..... Rebuild? Yes ... but hope for the future just around the corner .......

  

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56 minutes ago, eldag said:

Respectfully, I have to disagree with your whole premise. This team, IMHO, has 3 legit top 6 forwards in its line-up who are the three you list as the top line. However, GallyA has not shown he is a legit top 6 centre. Drouin and Lehkonen have shown potential but top 6 on a contending team? I think not. The rest are interchangeable drek that any team in the league can match or best.

Defence is a disaster area which soon will require a visit from the Prime Minister wearing a concerned look, a hard hat, and a hazmat suit. Weber MUST be traded now in order to realize any decent value for him! In order to fix the mess you rightfully point out that has been made with this team, one must be bold and think outside the box! We cannot fix anything by being committed to same old same old and expect good things to happen. The environment is too competitive and too many other teams have smart and forward thinking GM's with a plan to better their teams, not bail out the Canadiens.

You say we need a young scoring centre ... actually we need two ..... but let's start with one. Draisaitl fits the bill and he has not yet re-upped ...... so let's act now! First ... Bergevin must be fired because he will never trade Weber and thereby close the book on what the rest of the hockey universe already knows was one of the worst hockey trades ever made ...... Ironically ... if he could turn Weber and a top pick and say Gallagher into Draisaitl, he would successfully have applied some Chantelle #5 onto this festering boil of a trade! All of a sudden our top 6 looks a lot better as we would have one of the best young centres in the league anchoring our top line.

But that would leave us far from finished as the defense is now a bigger mess and we have an over priced position in goal. I love Carey but we have had him for 10 years and won zip with him. Plus .... he is about to get horrendously expensive and his long term health worries me. So ..... TRADE HIM NOW....... if there are any takers. This would be VERY tricky as his new contract may scare away most if not all GM's and worst of all, that boat anchor of a contract diminishes his trade value unless you can find just the right team which is close to contending but need goaltending ....... HALLO Winnipeg!!!!!!!!!!! Winnipeg have Steve Mason and Hellebyck so perhaps a deal for Price where we take back Mason and say Jacob Trouba ... a serviceable young "D" which would see about a net $3MM to Wpg's cap hit when Price's new contract kicks in ... we might have to also throw in a pick and or a drek defenseman to balance out. NOW ... with the Price contract off the books and Lindgren and Mason manning the pipes ... you can go big game hunting ... not this year .... but next year with Plekanec's cap hit also falling away ........

Our defensive situation this season would be fluid and weak but that is why it is called rebuilding and next season we go in with probably a decent lottery pick and great cap room to re-arm our arsenal ..... Rebuild? Yes ... but hope for the future just around the corner .......

  

What does a feminist Prime Minister know about grit and character? Keep him far, far away. Things are bad enough.

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Gallagher

Drouin-_______-Lehkonen

Hudon-Danault-Hemsky

Carr-McCarron-Shaw

Mitchell

 

_____ - Weber

_____ - Petry

Schlemko-Benn

Davidson or Jerabek

I agree with pretty much all you're saying here BT, although I believe Alzner will be ok on that second pairing with Petry.   I do think we absolutely, positively need to fill that spot next to Weber.  There is NO ONE on this roster I feel comfortable having there for the sort of minutes we need of him.  I would even take an older #1LD if i felt there were 2 - 3 years left in the tank because lets be honest, thats all we've got (if that) with this roster.  If you're uncomfortable with Alzner in your top 4 you could always move Benn up beside Petry and then put Juulsen on the #3 RD position although im not sure he's quite ready. 

Up front I think we might be able to limp by if Plekanec can bounce back. Its not ideal to hang your season on that but if the alternative is MB trading Galchenyuk for Duchene or something I see it as a downgrade even though he's probably a better 2 way centre than AG.  If we can somehow get a package of a top 2 centre and a puck moving defensman, id think about moving Galchenyuk although at this point i really wish we had some trade piece that would allow us to fill those holes while not losing any of our young core players. 

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http://www.rds.ca/hockey/canadiens/lnh-jaroslav-spacek-prepare-jakub-jerabek-pour-son-arrivee-avec-le-canadien-de-montreal-1.4600608

Paraphrasing: Jerabek sees himself as a skilled dman with solid positioning and a good first pass. He'll need time to adjust though because he hasn't played on smaller ice in quite a while. Jaroslav Spacek, who's assistant coach of the Czech national team, describes Jerabek as a complete player and good stickhandler who can also be used on special teams.

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State of the Habs eh? Where to begin?...

With last season I suppose. What a bummer those playoffs were huh? I really thought we had a solid, solid chance at doing something special. So much for that!

But ah well, a new year, a new season. I am definitely looking forward to seeing what we can do with a full training camp with CJ. Liked what I saw down the stretch last year a lot. If we can continue in that direction, I think we can be quite fierce.

All in all, I guess I’d say that IMO, the state of the Habs is looking pretty good.

GO HABS!

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9 hours ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

State of the Habs eh? Where to begin?...

With last season I suppose. What a bummer those playoffs were huh? I really thought we had a solid, solid chance at doing something special. So much for that!

But ah well, a new year, a new season. I am definitely looking forward to seeing what we can do with a full training camp with CJ. Liked what I saw down the stretch last year a lot. If we can continue in that direction, I think we can be quite fierce.

All in all, I guess I’d say that IMO, the state of the Habs is looking pretty good.

GO HABS!

Positive thoughts. Refreshing.:6280:

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On 8/6/2017 at 11:13 AM, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

I am definitely looking forward to seeing what we can do with a full training camp with CJ. Liked what I saw down the stretch last year a lot. If we can continue in that direction, I think we can be quite fierce.

I agree. Its a huge bonus to have a quality NHL caliber coach again - something we've been missing since 2011 (Martin). 

I am still seriously worried about our hole at LD  but I suspect MB is going to make one more big move before preseason. Unfortunately i think it will involve Chucky going the other way, but if the return is a bonefide top pairing LD and a top 2 centre, then I can live with it. 

Apprehensive... but excited... for the season. 

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6 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I agree. Its a huge bonus to have a quality NHL caliber coach again - something we've been missing since 2011 (Martin). 

I am still seriously worried about our hole at LD  but I suspect MB is going to make one more big move before preseason. Unfortunately i think it will involve Chucky going the other way, but if the return is a bonefide top pairing LD and a top 2 centre, then I can live with it. 

Apprehensive... but excited... for the season. 

I'm not even sure what would be out there that we could pull off with a trade like that, that would sufficiently fill that void. One for one maybe, But I can't see how anything we could get in a two for one would be of any value to us. not immediately, anyways. Maybe a one for one + a prospect or pick.

But I think any trade involving Chuck is a tricky one. If we trade him for defense, were stuck on offense (and more specifically C). If we trade for a more center minded center, what do we have left to swap for defense? Tricky indeed...

Also, what out there is even potentially available? I feel like we might have better luck finding a center than a puck carrying, left shooting defensemen with top pair potential.

What are some of the players that you would target? 

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1 hour ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

I'm not even sure what would be out there that we could pull off with a trade like that, that would sufficiently fill that void. One for one maybe, But I can't see how anything we could get in a two for one would be of any value to us. not immediately, anyways. Maybe a one for one + a prospect or pick.

But I think any trade involving Chuck is a tricky one. If we trade him for defense, were stuck on offense (and more specifically C). If we trade for a more center minded center, what do we have left to swap for defense? Tricky indeed...

Also, what out there is even potentially available? I feel like we might have better luck finding a center than a puck carrying, left shooting defensemen with top pair potential.

What are some of the players that you would target? 

I think you'd have to either give up age, or look at risk.  For example,  you could trade with edmonton (who needs wingers more than centres) and look at something like:

Galchenyuk + ________ (whichever third pairing guy they want, not named Benn)

for

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins + Sekara

We give up the most dynamic player but we get back a bonefide top 2 centre, and a mobile top pairing D.   Sekara is clearly not goign to get any better, but you should get a few decent years out of him.  So we give up the future but we get stronger immediately.

Or, you go the risk route and you target Sanheim in Philly, who is very much like Sergachev.   You would get back an established centre but you know that would mean someone like Girioux who's contract would be an absolute albatross in a couple of years.   Sanheim may be very very good for us for a while - or he may flame out.  Is he Subban or is he Beaulieu?  Nobody knows for sure at this point. 

You're definitely not getting back two young, quality players but if our window is open now, its the type of move you probably have to make. 
 

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On 8/9/2017 at 7:48 PM, maas_art said:

think you'd have to either give up age, or look at risk.  For example,  you could trade with edmonton (who needs wingers more than centres) and look at something like:

Galchenyuk + ________ (whichever third pairing guy they want, not named Benn)

for

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins + Sekara

We give up the most dynamic player but we get back a bonefide top 2 centre, and a mobile top pairing D.   Sekara is clearly not goign to get any better, but you should get a few decent years out of him.  So we give up the future but we get stronger immediately.

Or, you go the risk route and you target Sanheim in Philly, who is very much like Sergachev.   You would get back an established centre but you know that would mean someone like Girioux who's contract would be an absolute albatross in a couple of years.   Sanheim may be very very good for us for a while - or he may flame out.  Is he Subban or is he Beaulieu?  Nobody knows for sure at this point. 

You're definitely not getting back two young, quality players but if our window is open now, its the type of move you probably have to make.

Not bad, I could get with something along those lines for sure.

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19 hours ago, jeff33 said:

https://wingsnation.com/2017/08/12/the-salary-cap-isnt-the-only-reason-elite-talent-wont-come-to-detroit/

interesting read. sound familiar? kind of therapeutic. we should make a joint support forum

Interesting read Jeff ... thanks. It kind of hurts when you realize how much of this applies to Montreal's situation. The world of player agents and GM's and the players is a very small one and word spreads fast. You do not have to be a genius to figure out whether a team has a commitment to winning or not .....

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2 hours ago, eldag said:

Interesting read Jeff ... thanks. It kind of hurts when you realize how much of this applies to Montreal's situation. The world of player agents and GM's and the players is a very small one and word spreads fast. You do not have to be a genius to figure out whether a team has a commitment to winning or not .....

As much as I dislike a lot of what Bergevin has done, I'm actually not sure that I'd say he doesn't have a commitment to winning.  Like the Wings he doesn't exactly build a team in what you'd call the modern style, but he's also not afraid to make the big move if he thinks that it can put the team over the top.  I do believe that the Subban trade was partly based on a personality conflict with Bergevin and Therrien (which is a terrible reason to make a trade), but I also have no doubt that Bergevin truly believed that he was getting the better player at the time the deal was made.  Sergachev for Drouin is another move that we might hate in a few years but was absolutely all about winning now.

And Bergevin isn't alone in his mindset, either.  I remember when the Subban/Weber trade went down that many of the players interviewed (a surprising number, in my opinion) were pretty stoked to see Weber leaving the Western Conference and talked about how great he was.  It seems like there are still plenty of players/GMs out there that share Bergevin's view of the world. 

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2 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

As much as I dislike a lot of what Bergevin has done, I'm actually not sure that I'd say he doesn't have a commitment to winning.  Like the Wings he doesn't exactly build a team in what you'd call the modern style, but he's also not afraid to make the big move if he thinks that it can put the team over the top.  I do believe that the Subban trade was partly based on a personality conflict with Bergevin and Therrien (which is a terrible reason to make a trade), but I also have no doubt that Bergevin truly believed that he was getting the better player at the time the deal was made.  Sergachev for Drouin is another move that we might hate in a few years but was absolutely all about winning now.

And Bergevin isn't alone in his mindset, either.  I remember when the Subban/Weber trade went down that many of the players interviewed (a surprising number, in my opinion) were pretty stoked to see Weber leaving the Western Conference and talked about how great he was.  It seems like there are still plenty of players/GMs out there that share Bergevin's view of the world. 

100% agree. I would even say that not only are there some GMs who share his view, id suggest he's probably in the majority.  At the time of the Subban trade, Bob McKenzie did an informal Q & A with about 20 GMs asking them who won the trade & it was split - but with a slight edge to Montreal. 

I think the vast majority of us disagreed vehemently with the trade - and many of MB's moves - but that doesnt mean we think he's doing it to fail. He clearly thinks he's making the right moves... I just think his whole talent assessment is way off in today's NHL.  Maybe 15 years ago.   Its the same reason why, MT made me want to pull out my hair - but - i do think he genuinely felt he was doing the right things... he just wasnt a very good coach.

So if the coach is 'doing his best' but still not getting the results because he's not a great coach, the GM fires him.  At some point (as we now head into year 6 of MB's 5 year plan) its probably time for Molson to realize MB is not doing a great job & step in.   Dont know if that will happen any time soon though. 

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8 hours ago, Manatee-X said:

As much as I dislike a lot of what Bergevin has done, I'm actually not sure that I'd say he doesn't have a commitment to winning.  Like the Wings he doesn't exactly build a team in what you'd call the modern style, but he's also not afraid to make the big move if he thinks that it can put the team over the top.  I do believe that the Subban trade was partly based on a personality conflict with Bergevin and Therrien (which is a terrible reason to make a trade), but I also have no doubt that Bergevin truly believed that he was getting the better player at the time the deal was made.  Sergachev for Drouin is another move that we might hate in a few years but was absolutely all about winning now.

And Bergevin isn't alone in his mindset, either.  I remember when the Subban/Weber trade went down that many of the players interviewed (a surprising number, in my opinion) were pretty stoked to see Weber leaving the Western Conference and talked about how great he was.  It seems like there are still plenty of players/GMs out there that share Bergevin's view of the world. 

If MB really thought he was getting the better player he has no business being an NHL general manager.

Of course players didn't bad mouth Weber, it's a tight knit community, they're all friends. Heck, I bet Mike Richards wouldn't bad mouth PK today. 

 

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10 hours ago, habs1952 said:

If MB really thought he was getting the better player he has no business being an NHL general manager.

Of course players didn't bad mouth Weber, it's a tight knit community, they're all friends. Heck, I bet Mike Richards wouldn't bad mouth PK today. 

 

On the first line, I definitely agree :).

On the second, it wasn't so much that I expected anybody to badmouth him, but there are different levels of praise and I remember thinking at the time that a lot of it sounded genuine.  Something along the lines of "both guys are great players, I'm happy I won't have to face Weber in the corners anymore, etc." would be expected from anybody - it's pretty much just the polite, cliché thing to say.  But a lot of the comments were clearly going Weber's way and suggesting that Montreal won the trade.  Now maybe it's just that most of these guys had played against Weber and being from the West hadn't seen as much of PK, but for the purposes of this discussion it still goes to show that some of the things that we perceive as obvious terrible moves are not seen that way by a lot of people in the hockey community.  I'm sure that our 'old-school' philosophy probably does dissuade some players, but I'd also think that there are just as many others who would love to come play with the Man-Mountain in such a stable system.

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