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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

I sort of feel like the only way we come out of this without another abysmal season is if MB gets ridiculously lucky.  As in:

- We get 1st overall & sign dahlin.    
- We sign Tavares
- We trade Pacioretty for a guy like RNH or similar.

We would probably be competitive right away but thats banking on adding a #1 dman via lottery, a #1 centre via free agency and a #2 centre via trade.  None of those are completely controllable (albeit Pacioretty for some #1a-2 centre is probably doable) and we will need a lot of stars aligning to make it happen.   But i fear thats "the plan."

RNH isn't what we need ... I live in Edmonton and see a lot of him, he's a 2nd line center at best and frankly I think he's a bust based on his pre-NHL projections

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43 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

RNH isn't what we need ... I live in Edmonton and see a lot of him, he's a 2nd line center at best and frankly I think he's a bust based on his pre-NHL projections

Thing is we don't really have a 2nd line center either. The Habs aren't really in a position to be choosy when it comes to top 6 centers IMO. 

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53 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

RNH isn't what we need ... I live in Edmonton and see a lot of him, he's a 2nd line center at best and frankly I think he's a bust based on his pre-NHL projections

Yeah, I dont think RNH is the answer but him (or more likely a player like him because i dont see Edmonton wanting Pacioretty) plus the other holes filled (#1c and #1LD) would make us competitive.

You can argue that its too little too late (as in, we'd have a couple of years to try to win the cup & if we didnt we'd be in big trouble with a bunch of unmovable contracts) but I do think that MB's "plan" (which is really no plan at all) is to sign Tavares, add another centre (like RNH) and draft a #1LHD.

 

As far as RNH in general, I agree that he's a bust as a #1 overall pick but im not sure any of the guys in the first round would have been better.  It was a weakish draft - lots of good 2nd line centres, top 6 wingers and 2-3 dmen but not really anyone that stands out as elite.   The biggest thing that has always worried me about RNH is his durability.  He's injured a lot. 

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yeah, I dont think RNH is the answer but him (or more likely a player like him because i dont see Edmonton wanting Pacioretty) plus the other holes filled (#1c and #1LD) would make us competitive.

You can argue that its too little too late (as in, we'd have a couple of years to try to win the cup & if we didnt we'd be in big trouble with a bunch of unmovable contracts) but I do think that MB's "plan" (which is really no plan at all) is to sign Tavares, add another centre (like RNH) and draft a #1LHD.

 

As far as RNH in general, I agree that he's a bust as a #1 overall pick but im not sure any of the guys in the first round would have been better.  It was a weakish draft - lots of good 2nd line centres, top 6 wingers and 2-3 dmen but not really anyone that stands out as elite.   The biggest thing that has always worried me about RNH is his durability.  He's injured a lot. 

Right, the draft had a decent amount of depth but only a handful of guys you would call top-end talent. The biggest names going in were RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau, Larsson, and Couturier, who slipped quite a bit after being a projected #1 overall when rankings first came out. If you were going to re-draft now, Scheifele would probably come out near the top among 1st rounders though, and later picks included Nikita Kucherov, Vincent Trocheck, Brandon Saad, and Johnny Gaudreau. So definite talent there but hard to find, and a lot of those guys weren't highly-regarded by scouts at the time. Lots of people favored RNH as the best player in the draft, but with concerns over whether his slight frame would hold up in the NHL.

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5 hours ago, maas_art said:

You can argue that its too little too late (as in, we'd have a couple of years to try to win the cup & if we didnt we'd be in big trouble with a bunch of unmovable contracts) but I do think that MB's "plan" (which is really no plan at all) is to sign Tavares, add another centre (like RNH) and draft a #1LHD.

The main flaw in MB's "plan" ... is that I think there's zero chance Tavares signs here given the current state of affairs.   In fact I'd say there's zero chance we get ANY UFA's this summer based on how he treated Radulov and Markov.   We may have had a shot at JT if this was last summer before the tire fire the Habs turned into came about ... if Tavares signs somewhere it'll be a team that has a chance at a cup in 2019

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7 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

The main flaw in MB's "plan" ... is that I think there's zero chance Tavares signs here given the current state of affairs. 

I heard one of local radio stations, with the usual hockey guys , talking about JT and how the Habs are going to throw the brink truck at him  but he'd be crazy to go to Montreal as they are in worse shape than the Islanders. SJ and the NYR were mentioned as possible destinations

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

The main flaw in MB's "plan" ... is that I think there's zero chance Tavares signs here given the current state of affairs.   In fact I'd say there's zero chance we get ANY UFA's this summer based on how he treated Radulov and Markov.   We may have had a shot at JT if this was last summer before the tire fire the Habs turned into came about ... if Tavares signs somewhere it'll be a team that has a chance at a cup in 2019

But look how well he treated Alzner! A lot of washed up free agents would sign here for that kind of cash. LOL

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12 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

  In fact I'd say there's zero chance we get ANY UFA's this summer based on how he treated Radulov and Markov.

Thing is though, this gets said ALL the time. But it never happens. There's no black hole of UFA signings and there's no team that gets all the good ones either.  Sure, some teams are more aggressive and get a few extras but in the end, players, GMs (and fans) seem to have very short term memories)... 

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5 hours ago, maas_art said:

Thing is though, this gets said ALL the time. But it never happens. There's no black hole of UFA signings and there's no team that gets all the good ones either.  Sure, some teams are more aggressive and get a few extras but in the end, players, GMs (and fans) seem to have very short term memories)... 

Actually seems to me ... and it might be ancedotal ... but US teams get far more quality signings than Canadian teams ... and that in the last 10-15 years I'd say Habs have never signed anyone of an elite quality if they were available.

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56 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Actually seems to me ... and it might be ancedotal ... but US teams get far more quality signings than Canadian teams ... and that in the last 10-15 years I'd say Habs have never signed anyone of an elite quality if they were available.

That`s true. Probably due to lower taxes and warmer climates.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

Actually seems to me ... and it might be ancedotal ... but US teams get far more quality signings than Canadian teams ... and that in the last 10-15 years I'd say Habs have never signed anyone of an elite quality if they were available.

Well to be honest there really hasn't been many elite UFAs available in the past 10-15 years. Chara and Hossa are really the only two elite players I can think of in the last 10ish years. Pronger/Niedermayer if you go back a bit further but there were other circumstances there beyond taxes/weather and both players were in their mid 30s by then. Honestly I can't think of too many big name UFAs I wish the Habs signed in perfect hindsight. Niskanen and Stralman but beyond that there's not too much else at the top end that doesn't look bad by now. Lucic, Richards, Drury, Leino, Ehrhoff, Grabovski, Okposo, Ladd, Beleskey, Clarkson, Callahan, etc (....and Gomez). 

Honestly I don't think the Habs have done too badly with UFA signings in the past 10 years or so. Hamrlik was solid even when he had to play a bigger role than initially planned after Markov's injuries. Cole had a great season and was a solid trade piece before the contract would have turned bad. Cammalleri and Gionta were both solid value for top 6 forwards, Spacek and Gill both played solid fringe top-4 minutes. Kovalev was exceptional and probably still the best Habs forward of the 2000s. 

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Actually seems to me ... and it might be ancedotal ... but US teams get far more quality signings than Canadian teams ... and that in the last 10-15 years I'd say Habs have never signed anyone of an elite quality if they were available.

Who though?  I mean there are almost never really "elite" guys available.  Plus the problem is that as fans we always see it as "he didnt sign here" but its either us, or 29 (now 30) other teams.  Its not like every single good UFA is signing with one particular team. Its getting spread out.   In terms of Canadian teams losing out,  7 canadian teams, 24 american teams - no real wonder it seems that way. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

Well to be honest there really hasn't been many elite UFAs available in the past 10-15 years. Chara and Hossa are really the only two elite players I can think of in the last 10ish years. Pronger/Niedermayer if you go back a bit further but there were other circumstances there beyond taxes/weather and both players were in their mid 30s by then. Honestly I can't think of too many big name UFAs I wish the Habs signed in perfect hindsight. Niskanen and Stralman but beyond that there's not too much else at the top end that doesn't look bad by now. Lucic, Richards, Drury, Leino, Ehrhoff, Grabovski, Okposo, Ladd, Beleskey, Clarkson, Callahan, etc (....and Gomez). 

Honestly I don't think the Habs have done too badly with UFA signings in the past 10 years or so. Hamrlik was solid even when he had to play a bigger role than initially planned after Markov's injuries. Cole had a great season and was a solid trade piece before the contract would have turned bad. Cammalleri and Gionta were both solid value for top 6 forwards, Spacek and Gill both played solid fringe top-4 minutes. Kovalev was exceptional and probably still the best Habs forward of the 2000s. 

agreed.  And if you look at Hossa and Chara as the two most elite players to make it to UFA, in both cases it had to do with joining a team they thought would win the cup, not money or taxes or weather.  

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3 hours ago, maas_art said:

agreed.  And if you look at Hossa and Chara as the two most elite players to make it to UFA, in both cases it had to do with joining a team they thought would win the cup, not money or taxes or weather.  

Which circles right back to ... this team is not going to be much better next year thus my statement I doubt we attract anyone of note other than has beens (Alzner) or over hyped fringe players (Schlemko).

 

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12 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Well to be honest there really hasn't been many elite UFAs available in the past 10-15 years. Chara and Hossa are really the only two elite players I can think of in the last 10ish years. Pronger/Niedermayer if you go back a bit further but there were other circumstances there beyond taxes/weather and both players were in their mid 30s by then. Honestly I can't think of too many big name UFAs I wish the Habs signed in perfect hindsight. Niskanen and Stralman but beyond that there's not too much else at the top end that doesn't look bad by now. Lucic, Richards, Drury, Leino, Ehrhoff, Grabovski, Okposo, Ladd, Beleskey, Clarkson, Callahan, etc (....and Gomez). 

Honestly I don't think the Habs have done too badly with UFA signings in the past 10 years or so. Hamrlik was solid even when he had to play a bigger role than initially planned after Markov's injuries. Cole had a great season and was a solid trade piece before the contract would have turned bad. Cammalleri and Gionta were both solid value for top 6 forwards, Spacek and Gill both played solid fringe top-4 minutes. Kovalev was exceptional and probably still the best Habs forward of the 2000s. 

U can add radulov to that list as well, I think we have done quite well in the area of UFA. there are always exceptions,  now it’s either drafting or developing or a little of both. Not to mention having probably the worst management in the league who just  give away our best players. I have no problem trading any player. But you trade to make ur team stronger not weaker

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I guess it depends what you're willing to call elite... if by elite, we mean generational player or future HOF, then no, those guys aren't available very often, but there are also fewer of them in the league (akin to the argument as to why Canadian teams are out-numbered by American teams and thus don't get the same free agents by absolute numbers). But if we're calling a top pairing D man or top line forward an elite signing, then we could also include players like Brad Richards, Brian Campbell, Brian Rafalski, and so on. The common theme to a lot of those elite signings is the destination... the recurring cities we see players headed to are Chi, Bos, Det, NYR... those are original 6 franchises, they're teams with deep pockets and solidified ownership, they're teams who for the most part have been successful at the time the players signed there, and they're American. We meet a lot of those criteria, except we're not American and we're laden down by high taxes.

All that said, top-tier players don't become available in their prime very often, which is why the Subban trade for an older player was dumb as heck.

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29 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I guess it depends what you're willing to call elite... if by elite, we mean generational player or future HOF, then no, those guys aren't available very often, but there are also fewer of them in the league (akin to the argument as to why Canadian teams are out-numbered by American teams and thus don't get the same free agents by absolute numbers). But if we're calling a top pairing D man or top line forward an elite signing, then we could also include players like Brad Richards, Brian Campbell, Brian Rafalski, and so on. The common theme to a lot of those elite signings is the destination... the recurring cities we see players headed to are Chi, Bos, Det, NYR... those are original 6 franchises, they're teams with deep pockets and solidified ownership, they're teams who for the most part have been successful at the time the players signed there, and they're American. We meet a lot of those criteria, except we're not American and we're laden down by high taxes.

All that said, top-tier players don't become available in their prime very often, which is why the Subban trade for an older player was dumb as heck.

The list goes on... Marian Gaborik, Dan Hamhuis, Paul Martin, Nathan Horton, Ryan Suter or Zach Parise. Those guys certainly aren't considered 'elite', but there's no denying that they are/were legit star players in this league and highly sought-after free agents at the time. Those guys usually don't end up in Montreal, for various reasons.

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3 hours ago, ChiLla said:

The list goes on... Marian Gaborik, Dan Hamhuis, Paul Martin, Nathan Horton, Ryan Suter or Zach Parise. Those guys certainly aren't considered 'elite', but there's no denying that they are/were legit star players in this league and highly sought-after free agents at the time. Those guys usually don't end up in Montreal, for various reasons.

Agreed. We did have that big splash year when we signed Gionta, Cammalleri, Gill, Moen, etc. and we landed Radulov, albeit on a one-year prove-it deal. But in general, we've had to overpay to be able to compensate for our high taxes, and that hurts us when we get into bidding wars.

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I guess it depends what you're willing to call elite... if by elite, we mean generational player or future HOF, then no, those guys aren't available very often, but there are also fewer of them in the league (akin to the argument as to why Canadian teams are out-numbered by American teams and thus don't get the same free agents by absolute numbers). But if we're calling a top pairing D man or top line forward an elite signing, then we could also include players like Brad Richards, Brian Campbell, Brian Rafalski, and so on. The common theme to a lot of those elite signings is the destination... the recurring cities we see players headed to are Chi, Bos, Det, NYR... those are original 6 franchises, they're teams with deep pockets and solidified ownership, they're teams who for the most part have been successful at the time the players signed there, and they're American. We meet a lot of those criteria, except we're not American and we're laden down by high taxes.

All that said, top-tier players don't become available in their prime very often, which is why the Subban trade for an older player was dumb as heck.

yeah but if you're talking about guys of that caliber then you have to look at our signings of guys like Hamrlik, Radulov, Gionta, Cammaleri, etc.  Even guys like Semin, Briere, and Alzner - while they didnt work out - were considered to be top 5 or 10 most high profile UFA signings in their respective years.

The original argument was that high end or high profile players dont sign with us - or sign with us at a lesser rate than other teams - but its untrue.

UFAs tend to go where they have the best chance to win (which unless we can really sell ourselves) is not us.  The money is usually pretty close everywhere anyway.  Sure you may have to pay higher taxes on Montreal but you also can make oodles of money racing a horse on TV or having a crazy burger named after you. Not many markets in the US can boast even close to the type of endorsement opportunities you can get in Montreal or Toronto for a star UFA player. 

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8 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Agreed. We did have that big splash year when we signed Gionta, Cammalleri, Gill, Moen, etc. and we landed Radulov, albeit on a one-year prove-it deal. But in general, we've had to overpay to be able to compensate for our high taxes, and that hurts us when we get into bidding wars.

Radulov is an outlier ... a lot of teams didn't want to take chance on him due to his reputation.

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35 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Radulov is an outlier ... a lot of teams didn't want to take chance on him due to his reputation.

True for some teams, but the rumors were that there were other teams interested as well. I'm not sure if we offered more money (which seemed to be important to him on his next contract...).

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