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7 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

No kidding, didn't we get Andrew Shaw because he just goes out and wins cups (or something like that)? Clearly needs better coaching to repeat that past achievement.

Almost as if Andrew Shaw wasn't the reason Chicago won Cups. #patrickkane

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

The new memo from up top is "Pretend we'll be a good team with good management to get people to keep their season tickets for 2018-2019."

When in fact the Habs could potentially end up with their lowest point total in the modern era...

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13 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

When in fact the Habs could potentially end up with their lowest point total in the modern era...

Its shocking how many futility records we've broken this year.   Remember just a couple of years back the fast and talented young team we had?  How the heck did MB mess this up so badly? 

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3 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Its shocking how many futility records we've broken this year.   Remember just a couple of years back the fast and talented young team we had?  How the heck did MB mess this up so badly? 

Because he's not very good at his job.

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3 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Hey but Molson says MB is very good at his job, is a great evaluator of talent and knows how to build a team in today`s NHL. :4224:

The mental patients are running the asylum. :blink:

As far as I can tell Molson may also believe we are living on a 6,000 year old flat planet being run by reptilian overlords

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6 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Hey but Molson says MB is very good at his job, is a great evaluator of talent and knows how to build a team in today`s NHL. :4224:

The mental patients are running the asylum. :blink:

Wait a minute ... I think I've made sense of all this. Molson clearly has a dry sense of sarcasm and we just missed it. Everything he said makes perfect sense now.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

After reading this :

https://recrutes.ca/trevor-timmins-drafting-record-top-class/

I'm convinced Timmins and a francophone should be made co-GM's ... with Timmins still in charge of scouting and drafting.

But that's pretty much how it is now. TT does the drafting, save for MB overriding him on things like McCarron apparently. The drafting has been decent. The development has been poor, and the pro scouting has been dreadful. That is where we need to improve, and that's squarely on Bergevin.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

After reading this :

https://recrutes.ca/trevor-timmins-drafting-record-top-class/

I'm convinced Timmins and a francophone should be made co-GM's ... with Timmins still in charge of scouting and drafting.

That's a good article, but I think it misses the drafting/development issue of the past decade: the lower-rounds

Just eye-balling the "games played" column (granted this data looks to be almost 2 years out of date) on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montreal_Canadiens_draft_picks

It's easy to see why Timmins was regarded so highly before - not sure exactly when he joined the team, but from 2001 to 2008 we were constantly drafting useful NHLers after the first round - some of these never amounted to more than depth players while others were core parts of the team, but either way it's hard not to look at those years as quite successful. 

Then starting 2008 things took an ugly turn.  Gallagher was a great pick in the 5th round of 2010, Mete and Lehkonen could certainly look like steals if they continue to develop, and some players like Hudon, de la Rose and Andrighetto are decent depth pieces with some potential. And of course it's too early for the last few years of drafts.  But for a decade worth of drafting, this isn't good results.

It's interesting that the two best looking non-first-rounders currently on the team both skipped our farm system ...

 

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7 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

Wait a minute ... I think I've made sense of all this. Molson clearly has a dry sense of sarcasm and we just missed it. Everything he said makes perfect sense now.

I certainly hope you`re right for all of our sakes and for the sake of the team. Otherwise if this is his sincere opinion of MB then we are all screwed for yet another season.

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7 hours ago, Graeme-1 said:

That's a good article, but I think it misses the drafting/development issue of the past decade: the lower-rounds

Just eye-balling the "games played" column (granted this data looks to be almost 2 years out of date) on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Montreal_Canadiens_draft_picks

It's easy to see why Timmins was regarded so highly before - not sure exactly when he joined the team, but from 2001 to 2008 we were constantly drafting useful NHLers after the first round - some of these never amounted to more than depth players while others were core parts of the team, but either way it's hard not to look at those years as quite successful. 

Then starting 2008 things took an ugly turn.  Gallagher was a great pick in the 5th round of 2010, Mete and Lehkonen could certainly look like steals if they continue to develop, and some players like Hudon, de la Rose and Andrighetto are decent depth pieces with some potential. And of course it's too early for the last few years of drafts.  But for a decade worth of drafting, this isn't good results.

It's interesting that the two best looking non-first-rounders currently on the team both skipped our farm system ...

 

In fact, most of the best players in the Timmins/Bergevin era skipped our farm system... Galchenyuk, Mete, and Sergachev went directly to the NHL from junior. Lehkonen played in Europe but never the AHL. Subban had a brief stint in the AHL before Lefebvre got there.

Before this season, I think the only guy SL graduated to the team as a regular was Nathan Beaulieu. Under Julien, we've seen more young guys get a shot, with Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Juulsen, and then Carr, Lernout, and McCarron to a lesser degree. So the question is whether SL has just been extremely poor at developing players or whether Michel Therrien was just averse to giving them real chances. In either case, it falls on Bergevin's shoulders to make sure his organization is developing draft picks, and he's simply failed to do that. It shouldn't take 6 years to start graduating players up to the NHL.

As for TT, I agree with you that games played doesn't tell the whole story. That said, the number of players picked outside the top 10-15 guys who become stars in the league is not high. Yes, you see the Nick Lidstrom and Pavel Datsyuk and Nikita Kucherov and so on from time to time, but at the end of the day, there are probably under 1% of the players chosen from rounds 2-7 who go on to be elite players. A lot of the dominant teams in the league in the past decade or so have built their franchises around 2-3 top players chosen near the top of the draft. Chicago with Toews and Kane. Pittsburgh with Crosby, Malkin, and MAF. Tampa with Lecavalier and then Stamkos. Washington with Ovechkin and Backstrom. Edmonton hasn't had as much team success, but their stars are all top choices for the most part. Nasvhille has been more of the exception, simply because their GM was able to fleece other teams for the likes of Forsberg and Subban. But in general, the best teams simply have hit when they've picked in the top 10... TT has chosen Carey, he's chosen Galchenyuk, he's chosen Sergachev, and now he'll get another crack at the top 10. Looking back, Carey was the best player available at pick 5, so TT hit a homerun. AG is arguably the best player in his draft, albeit Forsberg is in the process of stealing that title. But to grab one of the top two guys at slot 3 is still a hit. And Sergacgev may well prove to be one of the top 3-5 picks in his draft year too. So when given the chance, I think TT has been good near the top of the draft. Not really his fault that he hasn't had a Kane, Crosby, Ovi, or McDavid available to select.

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Galchenyuk ending the season on a high note, scoring 17 points in his last 18 games.   Really hoping that the stubbornness to keep him away from centre subsides soon.  Its really ridiculous. You have poor Jonathan Drouin looking like he's over his head playing centre and you have Galchenyuk looking like he needs more opportunities playing LW.  

An encouraging sign is both AG's  recent point totals and also Julien's kind words about him. He's said he has made great strides lately in his overall game (praising his defensive game especially) and as that all falls into place you have to think they cant keep AG away from centre forever.

I suppose by next year MB can allow Julien to play him there & then say "well sure, he's great now, because we helped mold him into the player he is." 

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8 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Galchenyuk ending the season on a high note, scoring 17 points in his last 18 games.   Really hoping that the stubbornness to keep him away from centre subsides soon.  Its really ridiculous. You have poor Jonathan Drouin looking like he's over his head playing centre and you have Galchenyuk looking like he needs more opportunities playing LW.  

An encouraging sign is both AG's  recent point totals and also Julien's kind words about him. He's said he has made great strides lately in his overall game (praising his defensive game especially) and as that all falls into place you have to think they cant keep AG away from centre forever.

I suppose by next year MB can allow Julien to play him there & then say "well sure, he's great now, because we helped mold him into the player he is." 

After screwing him up in the first place. 

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13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 AG is arguably the best player in his draft, albeit Forsberg is in the process of stealing that title. 

I am not sure how you can argue that?  I get you like AG, but come on Ted. Forsberg has been clearly better then AG

The last 4 season Forsberg has 113 goals, 133 assists, 246 points,  two 30 plus goal seasons and over 60 points in 3 of the 4 seasons

AG has 86 goals and 111 assists and 197 points. Has yet to have a 60 point season and reached 30 goals once

Forsberg is not in the process he stole that four seasons ago. 

Players Like Teuvo and Tanner are in the process.

Teuvo has 104 points over this season and last, AG has 95 points

Tanner Pearson has 85 points but 39 goals to AG 36

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38 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

I am not sure how you can argue that?  I get you like AG, but come on Ted. Forsberg has been clearly better then AG

The last 4 season Forsberg has 113 goals, 133 assists, 246 points,  two 30 plus goal seasons and over 60 points in 3 of the 4 seasons

AG has 86 goals and 111 assists and 197 points. Has yet to have a 60 point season and reached 30 goals once

Forsberg is not in the process he stole that four seasons ago. 

Players Like Teuvo and Tanner are in the process.

Teuvo has 104 points over this season and last, AG has 95 points

Tanner Pearson has 85 points but 39 goals to AG 36

Not sure why you conveniently left out the beginning of Galchenyuk's career. AG has 255 career points. Forsberg 252. I fully agree that Forsberg is the better player right now. But if you're looking at the value of a draft pick and the job the scout did in making that selection, it's what did he do for your team over the course of his career. AG has been able to contribute over a longer period of time from a younger age. He's been productive despite being given a lesser role than Forsberg has gotten with Nashville. And so evaluating their ENTIRE careers and not just the part that's convenient for you, AG is arguably the better draft pick up until now, which is what I said, with Forsberg in the process of taking over that title.

Your opinion of when he took over the title of best player? Well four years ago, Forsberg had played a grand total of 18 NHL games and had 1 goal and 5 assists. So no, he wasn't in the process of being crowned best player in his draft year then.

Put another way, if both players had their careers cut short by injury tomorrow, which player has done more in his career? Forsberg has done more lately, but Galchenyuk has done just as much spread out over a longer period of time. And so while Forsberg has more value today as a player, it doesn't mean he was clearly the better draft pick through the past 6 years.

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15 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

In fact, most of the best players in the Timmins/Bergevin era skipped our farm system... Galchenyuk, Mete, and Sergachev went directly to the NHL from junior. Lehkonen played in Europe but never the AHL. Subban had a brief stint in the AHL before Lefebvre got there.

Before this season, I think the only guy SL graduated to the team as a regular was Nathan Beaulieu. Under Julien, we've seen more young guys get a shot, with Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Juulsen, and then Carr, Lernout, and McCarron to a lesser degree. So the question is whether SL has just been extremely poor at developing players or whether Michel Therrien was just averse to giving them real chances. In either case, it falls on Bergevin's shoulders to make sure his organization is developing draft picks, and he's simply failed to do that. It shouldn't take 6 years to start graduating players up to the NHL.

As for TT, I agree with you that games played doesn't tell the whole story. That said, the number of players picked outside the top 10-15 guys who become stars in the league is not high. Yes, you see the Nick Lidstrom and Pavel Datsyuk and Nikita Kucherov and so on from time to time, but at the end of the day, there are probably under 1% of the players chosen from rounds 2-7 who go on to be elite players. A lot of the dominant teams in the league in the past decade or so have built their franchises around 2-3 top players chosen near the top of the draft. Chicago with Toews and Kane. Pittsburgh with Crosby, Malkin, and MAF. Tampa with Lecavalier and then Stamkos. Washington with Ovechkin and Backstrom. Edmonton hasn't had as much team success, but their stars are all top choices for the most part. Nasvhille has been more of the exception, simply because their GM was able to fleece other teams for the likes of Forsberg and Subban. But in general, the best teams simply have hit when they've picked in the top 10... TT has chosen Carey, he's chosen Galchenyuk, he's chosen Sergachev, and now he'll get another crack at the top 10. Looking back, Carey was the best player available at pick 5, so TT hit a homerun. AG is arguably the best player in his draft, albeit Forsberg is in the process of stealing that title. But to grab one of the top two guys at slot 3 is still a hit. And Sergacgev may well prove to be one of the top 3-5 picks in his draft year too. So when given the chance, I think TT has been good near the top of the draft. Not really his fault that he hasn't had a Kane, Crosby, Ovi, or McDavid available to select.

Ya I really don't blame drafting & development for the lack of elite forwards (and we did draft an elite goaltender and defensman). Unfortunately that's just hard to do with lower first rounders,   Some of the late first rounders were bad, but that above article does make a good case that those tended to be either in weak drafts or likely due to management pressure to draft a certain way.

But from 2000 to 2007 after the first round we did draft & develop players like Plekanek, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Halak, Emelin, Grabovski, Streit, Latendresse, D'agostini, S. Kostitsyn, White, Weber (not that one), and of course Subban, which just doesn't seem to be happening anymore. I wonder if part of the issue is that the guys taken later in the draft tend to be more raw / less naturally gifted and are more dependent on solid coaching (especially in the AHL) to take the next step?

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Not sure why you conveniently left out the beginning of Galchenyuk's career. AG has 255 career points. Forsberg 252. I fully agree that Forsberg is the better player right now. But if you're looking at the value of a draft pick and the job the scout did in making that selection, it's what did he do for your team over the course of his career. AG has been able to contribute over a longer period of time from a younger age. He's been productive despite being given a lesser role than Forsberg has gotten with Nashville. And so evaluating their ENTIRE careers and not just the part that's convenient for you, AG is arguably the better draft pick up until now, which is what I said, with Forsberg in the process of taking over that title.

Your opinion of when he took over the title of best player? Well four years ago, Forsberg had played a grand total of 18 NHL games and had 1 goal and 5 assists. So no, he wasn't in the process of being crowned best player in his draft year then.

Put another way, if both players had their careers cut short by injury tomorrow, which player has done more in his career? Forsberg has done more lately, but Galchenyuk has done just as much spread out over a longer period of time. And so while Forsberg has more value today as a player, it doesn't mean he was clearly the better draft pick through the past 6 years.

I actually think caperns had the better comparison, just comparing total points in a career is never my favorite: I'll take 10 forty goal seasons over 40 ten goal seasons any day.  This is kind of similar to the HOF argument for guys like Bure and Lindros who didn't have great career totals but were dominant when the played (I'm in the pro-hall-of-fame camp)

Galchenyk gave us a couple decent years as a teenager while Forsberg was in Europe and the AHL (mostly) - that's some amount of value I suppose, but I don't think the fact we brought him up earlier really makes him a better or worse pick - at most perhaps he was more NHL ready? In the four years both have been full-time NHLers, Forseberg has statistically been pretty clearly the better players (especially accounting for goals being more valuable than assists)

Basically f you told gave me a time machine and told me Galcnhenyk spending two more years in junior meant he'd have put up Forseberg's points the last 4 years, I'd take that deal in a second.

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