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Well said! BigTed3

- I think we can all agree our D needs to be upgraded. Find more guys like Mete and Petry and less guys like Alzner and Benn and Schlemko. It makes it easier for Price and it makes it work better for players like Galchenyuk and Pacioretty and Drouin. Instead of focusing on AG being weak defensively, I would focus on fixing the defence so that AG and JD can concentrate more on producing instead of having to play in their own zone a lot.

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3 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Sure, there have been a lot of different line combos.. so here you've shown me

1. Pacioretty is a very good possession player.

2. Gallagher is a very good possession player.

3. Galchenyuk has posted three lines with Corsi's of 53.49%, 53.23%, and 52.73%. I'm not asking him to be the best possession player on the team, but if he's putting up numbers like those in several different combos AND putting up more points than the majority of his teammates, then he's not hurting us in those roles.

4. I don't see guys like Froese, DLR, Ott, Martinsen, Mitchell, Lehkonen, Flynn, Deslauriers, Drouin, King or so on here and guys like DD, Weise, Byron, Shaw, and Hudon don't seem to be featured here any more than AG is. This whole debate started around the fact that Galchenyuk was on several occasions played less than the likes of Deslauriers, Froese, King, and other 4th-line types. That should probably never happen. Again, this isn't saying AG is the best player on the team, just that he doesn't deserve to be stuck on the 4th line and that it doesn't make sense for the coach to accuse him of slumping when other players fail to produce for longer stretches and no better possession numbers and still get to play (I'm thinking of DD's 30-game+ stretch with no goals where he still got to play the 1C slot next to Pacioretty and still got PP time)...

 

1. Yes

2.Yes

3. At what cost, why have BG/MP Corsi numbers come down for AG there are 8 other forwards who had a better corsi playing with BG/MP, 6 of those forwards are still with us. 

4. Come on big Ted. Lets be a little fairer here. Only two players have more PP time this season then AG, JD and MP.  95% of the time he has played with one at least one of the following forwards, PHILLIP.DANAULT, BRENDAN.GALLAGHER, MAX.PACIORETTY,CHARLES.HUDON,ANDREW.SHAW,ARTTURI.LEHKONEN,PAUL.BYRON,TOMAS.PLEKANEC, JONATHAN.DROUIN. You know what that equates to for 4th line minutes, he has played 572 minutes of 5 on 5, 28.6 minutes. 28.6 minutes. You know how many PP minutes he has received this season 121 minutes. Again only JD and MP have more so when I hear people complain about his 28/29 minutes on the 4th line I have to laugh. He should get that PP time no doubt about it. But complaining about his playing on the 4th line all of 28 minutes is really laughable. To use that because his offensive number are not really that great is also laughable or because his corsi is at 48% please. 

You wanna talk about no have Subban, Markov of a couple of years ago, I get that, but it not only helps Galchenyk it helps all our forwards, Our forwards were playing really well to start the season, we just have a crap dee, no center and price was playing like Nieme. Galchenyk is not our answer. I would start trading the best players first, Price, Patches, Weber and continue down the list. 

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1 hour ago, Ravadak said:

But complaining about his playing on the 4th line all of 28 minutes is really laughable. To use that because his offensive number are not really that great is also laughable or because his corsi is at 48% please. 

 

Except your taking that arguement/statement out of context.    "In the PAST" he's been jerked around the lineup.    This year, 2nd on team in scoring (Patches jumped ahead) when used with somewhat better line matchups etc (Drouin - AG is less than ideal,  AG-Gallagher is much better) and not getting jerked all over the lineup during games.   So his "offensive numbesr are not really that great" ... really? 2nd on team ... where everyone's numbers are terrible this year on the Habs.   If Habs were playing better his numbers would be higher just like everyone else.

I would suggest everyone simply stop responding to you as there is zero point in debating it any longer.   You're EDIT and clearly have an agenda to bash AG and will twist every statement made to support your negative opinion of him.   End of story.

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Both sides have made their points and seem entrenched in their opinions. From what I've read it doesn't look like either party will accept the others arguments. I would suggest everyone involved just agree to disagree. It's been an interesting debate but I see no benefit in moving forward.

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1 hour ago, Ravadak said:

1. Yes

2.Yes

3. At what cost, why have BG/MP Corsi numbers come down for AG there are 8 other forwards who had a better corsi playing with BG/MP, 6 of those forwards are still with us. 

4. Come on big Ted. Lets be a little fairer here. Only two players have more PP time this season then AG, JD and MP.  95% of the time he has played with one at least one of the following forwards, PHILLIP.DANAULT, BRENDAN.GALLAGHER, MAX.PACIORETTY,CHARLES.HUDON,ANDREW.SHAW,ARTTURI.LEHKONEN,PAUL.BYRON,TOMAS.PLEKANEC, JONATHAN.DROUIN. You know what that equates to for 4th line minutes, he has played 572 minutes of 5 on 5, 28.6 minutes. 28.6 minutes. You know how many PP minutes he has received this season 121 minutes. Again only JD and MP have more so when I hear people complain about his 28/29 minutes on the 4th line I have to laugh. He should get that PP time no doubt about it. But complaining about his playing on the 4th line all of 28 minutes is really laughable. To use that because his offensive number are not really that great is also laughable or because his corsi is at 48% please. 

You wanna talk about no have Subban, Markov of a couple of years ago, I get that, but it not only helps Galchenyk it helps all our forwards, Our forwards were playing really well to start the season, we just have a crap dee, no center and price was playing like Nieme. Galchenyk is not our answer. I would start trading the best players first, Price, Patches, Weber and continue down the list. 

- On the first point, the problem is that many of the other forwards can't score. We've scored 22 goals in our last 12 games. Someone posted a stat today about how 9 of those goals came in two games (the Canucks and Isles games) against two of the worst defences in the league. In the other 10 games, we've scored 13 goals. That's pretty pathetic. This team has very little offensive capability past Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, and Gallagher. So we need to find solutions that include the few guys who can reliably put the puck in the net. If the Corsi is 55% instead of 53% because Player X plays with MP and BG instead of AG, I'm not bothered by that too much. We're still getting positive results with Galchenyuk, and I'd rather do what we need to do to focus on producing more offence.

- The fact that AG lines up with at least one of the guys you listed does not mean he wasn't "on the 4th line." There were plenty of times where he was lined up with Drouin or Lehkonen or Scherbak or so on but the line still got less ice than the line that should have been the 4th line. And if I look at 5v5 ice times, AG has played 101 minutes with Byron, 62.5 with DLR, 36 with Deslauriers, 33 with McCarron, 30 with Mitchell, 16 with Carr, 14 with Hemsky, 14 with Scherbak,and 10.5 with Froese. All of those players are conceivably 4th liners when we have a full healthy line-up (our top 9 is theoretically MP, BG, JD, AG, TP, PD, AS, AL, and CH). If you want to say Shaw is the 10th forward instead of Byron, then it's even worse, because he's played 134 minutes with Shaw. That's 317-351 man-minutes of ice time without a top 9 forward on his line; even if we assume AG always had two of those guys at the same time, that's at least 160 minutes of his 562 where he had a 4th liner on his line (and up to 351 if by chance they were always separate), not the 28 you've suggested. You calculated the time based on having at least one of Shaw or Byron or Plekanec or so on as being acceptable. But if he's on with Byron and DLR, or Shaw and Danault, or McCarron and Mitchell, those aren't really offensive lines and they're not being given top 6 minutes. When Pacioretty was with Danault and Shaw, they got more ice time than when AG was paired with that duo and they were on a couple of nights the least-used line.

To boot, I referenced D men. Well AG has played 115 min with Schlemko on, 116 with Morrow, 141 with Alzner, 177 with Benn, 41 with Davidson, 15 with Lernout, and 8 with Streit. Those D men are simply not moving the puck up to put the forwards in position to score. I'd liken it to blaming a wide receiver in football for not gaining yards or scoring touchdowns when he's playing with an awful quarterback. In prior seasons, when AG was playing with "a better quarterback" his numbers were better.

- As for the PP, AG has been one of our best players in that role. He leads the team in points on the PP, and he's been getting a lot of good looks since he was moved to the right circle. He was ineffective there when he was asked to play in the high slot. Pacioretty's been more effective in that spot and was dead weight at the top of the circle, and it took the coaches way too long to make that switch. But yes, AG deserves to remain on the PP. But he also needs to be used appropriately at ES and right now we're not taking advantage of his skill.

 

 

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On 1/17/2018 at 7:20 PM, Ravadak said:

How many new linemates, offensive zone starts, power play time do we need to give him, everybody gets the blame for his results, Its because of his linemates, its because the coaches don't use him properly, its because he doesn't play enough at the end of the game, or not enough at the beginning of the game, his plus minus does not matter, his CF% does matter, they give him the wrong color t shirt, they pick on him when they should caudle him and on and on and on. 

Did you watch the last game. He looked great out there, anyone that watched that game would probably feel that way. Yet for those that checked the stats at the end of the night. He had over 5 minutes of power play time and only registered one more shot then Pleks with 0 PP time, He had 2 assist, only one primary, ended up - 3 on the night worst on the team. I know one game, his linemates, he wasn't playing center, the coach put him on the wrong side of the ice  blah blah blah.

Take off the blinders, take a deep breath go to www.corsica.hockey go to skater stats, Filter habs (montreal) forwards, choose this year last year, the last three yeas it doesn't matter he will be in the bottom group of the forwards in most categories. IT not bad luck, its not his linemates , its not his coaches, its not the cosmic rays, its galchenyk

On 1/17/2018 at 7:20 PM, Ravadak said:

 

I'm a little late but two things.

First of all let's talk about his -3 that game.  On the Beauvillier goal the forwards on the ice which turned over the puck in the offensive zone were Hudon, Byron (who shot wide of the net) and Pacioretty.  Then Pacioretty went off for the change.  Galchenyuk just happens to be the first one off the bench and he got dinged with a -1 the second he stepped on the ice.  If it was Plekanec who just happens to be the one changing, he'd get the -1.  Not to mention, Jerabek made a terrible play which left Beauvillier wide open.

Similarly the Pelech goal.  Once again the forwards were Pacioretty, Byron and Hudon, all of whom went to change.  Hudon is especially guilty here because he went for the big hit on Beauvillier and missed, leading to an odd man rush.  I actually feel bad for Mete too because he got dinged for a -1 too when he had to chase a 2 on 1 as soon as he got on the bench.  Once again, how is this Galchenyuk's fault?  He was nowhere near the play.  If it was anybody's fault it was Hudon and Drouin, first off the bench, and who was right beside Pelech.

With 2 assists I don't even know how Galchenyuk got the -3.  He wasn't on the ice at all when Barzal score.

Now those two goals when he was involved in the play.  On the OT goal, he was marking Hickey at the point when Tavares out-muscled/out-hustled Jerabek.  On the shorty it was his fault.  But even there he was trying to slide the puck back to Petry when it took a weird bounce of the boards.  It was not a defensive play.  So if you're going to say his defensive mistakes lead to goals against, this game did not demonstrate it.  And if the Schlemko goal stood his +/- might even look good.  But that's the point.  +/- is such a tricky stat that depends why on circumstance beyong your control.

Secondly, nobody is saying Galchenyuk is a better defensive player than Plekanec.  Also, it doesn't matter one like whether fans undervalue Plekanec (they don't).  The organization clearly doesn't.  They not only give him playing time, they pay him 7 million a year to do his thing.  That's the thing too.  So Galchenyuk is bad defensively and is below average on face-offs.  Is he worse than, over the years, Desharnais (who got playing time).  Is he worse than Flynn?  Is he worse than McCarron who they're trying to turn into a centre?  If he's not why isn't he getting playing time?

On a related note, why isn't Subban valued by the team?

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27 minutes ago, Disillusioned1 said:

I'm a little late but two things.

First of all let's talk about his -3 that game.  On the Beauvillier goal the forwards on the ice which turned over the puck in the offensive zone were Hudon, Byron (who shot wide of the net) and Pacioretty.  Then Pacioretty went off for the change.  Galchenyuk just happens to be the first one off the bench and he got dinged with a -1 the second he stepped on the ice.  If it was Plekanec who just happens to be the one changing, he'd get the -1.  Not to mention, Jerabek made a terrible play which left Beauvillier wide open.

Similarly the Pelech goal.  Once again the forwards were Pacioretty, Byron and Hudon, all of whom went to change.  Hudon is especially guilty here because he went for the big hit on Beauvillier and missed, leading to an odd man rush.  I actually feel bad for Mete too because he got dinged for a -1 too when he had to chase a 2 on 1 as soon as he got on the bench.  Once again, how is this Galchenyuk's fault?  He was nowhere near the play.  If it was anybody's fault it was Hudon and Drouin, first off the bench, and who was right beside Pelech.

With 2 assists I don't even know how Galchenyuk got the -3.  He wasn't on the ice at all when Barzal score.

Now those two goals when he was involved in the play.  On the OT goal, he was marking Hickey at the point when Tavares out-muscled/out-hustled Jerabek.  On the shorty it was his fault.  But even there he was trying to slide the puck back to Petry when it took a weird bounce of the boards.  It was not a defensive play.  So if you're going to say his defensive mistakes lead to goals against, this game did not demonstrate it.  And if the Schlemko goal stood his +/- might even look good.  But that's the point.  +/- is such a tricky stat that depends why on circumstance beyong your control.

Secondly, nobody is saying Galchenyuk is a better defensive player than Plekanec.  Also, it doesn't matter one like whether fans undervalue Plekanec (they don't).  The organization clearly doesn't.  They not only give him playing time, they pay him 7 million a year to do his thing.  That's the thing too.  So Galchenyuk is bad defensively and is below average on face-offs.  Is he worse than, over the years, Desharnais (who got playing time).  Is he worse than Flynn?  Is he worse than McCarron who they're trying to turn into a centre?  If he's not why isn't he getting playing time?

On a related note, why isn't Subban valued by the team?

On 1/17/2018 at 7:35 PM, Ravadak said:

 

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28 minutes ago, Disillusioned1 said:

I'm a little late but two things.

First of all let's talk about his -3 that game.  On the Beauvillier goal the forwards on the ice which turned over the puck in the offensive zone were Hudon, Byron (who shot wide of the net) and Pacioretty.  Then Pacioretty went off for the change.  Galchenyuk just happens to be the first one off the bench and he got dinged with a -1 the second he stepped on the ice.  If it was Plekanec who just happens to be the one changing, he'd get the -1.  Not to mention, Jerabek made a terrible play which left Beauvillier wide open.

Similarly the Pelech goal.  Once again the forwards were Pacioretty, Byron and Hudon, all of whom went to change.  Hudon is especially guilty here because he went for the big hit on Beauvillier and missed, leading to an odd man rush.  I actually feel bad for Mete too because he got dinged for a -1 too when he had to chase a 2 on 1 as soon as he got on the bench.  Once again, how is this Galchenyuk's fault?  He was nowhere near the play.  If it was anybody's fault it was Hudon and Drouin, first off the bench, and who was right beside Pelech.

With 2 assists I don't even know how Galchenyuk got the -3.  He wasn't on the ice at all when Barzal score.

Now those two goals when he was involved in the play.  On the OT goal, he was marking Hickey at the point when Tavares out-muscled/out-hustled Jerabek.  On the shorty it was his fault.  But even there he was trying to slide the puck back to Petry when it took a weird bounce of the boards.  It was not a defensive play.  So if you're going to say his defensive mistakes lead to goals against, this game did not demonstrate it.  And if the Schlemko goal stood his +/- might even look good.  But that's the point.  +/- is such a tricky stat that depends why on circumstance beyong your control.

Secondly, nobody is saying Galchenyuk is a better defensive player than Plekanec.  Also, it doesn't matter one like whether fans undervalue Plekanec (they don't).  The organization clearly doesn't.  They not only give him playing time, they pay him 7 million a year to do his thing.  That's the thing too.  So Galchenyuk is bad defensively and is below average on face-offs.  Is he worse than, over the years, Desharnais (who got playing time).  Is he worse than Flynn?  Is he worse than McCarron who they're trying to turn into a centre?  If he's not why isn't he getting playing time?

On a related note, why isn't Subban valued by the team?

think ravadak is just trolling on this subject, i think he's enjoying this to much, no matter what you say he's gonna spew the same thing over and over

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Chucky is a decent forward not great but not as bad as some would like to make him out as. this is an off year the teams defence has been stripped to the breaking point Price is not having a great year either and we still are threadbare at center so stats this year are a wash for me i don't think they mean that much right now not with Alzner and Morrow and some of the other D we have.

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3 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Personally I think debates are great. As long as the parties remain civil with each other and refrain from slander.

I agree, but, reading the same points being made over and over is like watching the Habs play........not enjoyable. at. all.

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On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎21 at 10:47 PM, HabsAlways said:

Except your taking that arguement/statement out of context.    "In the PAST" he's been jerked around the lineup.    This year, 2nd on team in scoring (Patches jumped ahead) when used with somewhat better line matchups etc (Drouin - AG is less than ideal,  AG-Gallagher is much better) and not getting jerked all over the lineup during games.   So his "offensive numbesr are not really that great" ... really? 2nd on team ... where everyone's numbers are terrible this year on the Habs.   If Habs were playing better his numbers would be higher just like everyone else.

I would suggest everyone simply stop responding to you as there is zero point in debating it any longer.   You're EDIT and clearly have an agenda to bash AG and will twist every statement made to support your negative opinion of him.   End of story.

With all due respect I believe my points are valid. And the data I am providing is valid. 

He appears to be a good offensive forward especially if he could play 14 minutes of PP time each game.

There is a reason he gets moved around the lineup 5 on 5. One probably to get his an OZ Start. 2 He is brutal defensively.  Just to put things in perspective when I say his scoring is not really anything to brag about I am referring to hos 5 on 5. I have said it before and will say it again. anytime we have a PP he should be on the ice no doubt about that. However when it comes to 5 on 5 ... well here take a look.

There are 5 forwards that score more per minute points 5 on 5, there are two other forwards that score at the same rate. And I dare say, with the exception of JD are all better in their own zone.

So I would say to who ever coaches AG  they would be a fool to not play AG on every PP because he scores at a higher rate then anyone else on our team

I would say to who ever coaches AG  they would be a fool to think he is any better 5 on 5 then any of our other forwards with the exception of JD. 

Since everybody wants to help AG with BG. Maybe lets try to help JD have him play with BG....Because they are stuck with JD, but they cn move Galchenyk

  PPPoints Total Points 5on5 pts 5 on 5 Time PP Time Percent PP Points Percent 5 on 5 Points
Danualt 2 23 21 565 50 4% 4%
Byron 1 21 20 578 39 3% 3%
Patches 10 29 19 621 141 7% 3%
Brendan Gallager 7 24 17 595 91 8% 3%
Pleks 0 17 17 620 8 0% 3%
Galchenyk 12 26 14 572 121 10% 2%
Drouin 10 22 12 556 139 7% 2%
Shaw 7 19 12 565 103 7% 2%
Charles Hudon 6 16 10 516 70 9%

2%

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12 hours ago, Regis22 said:

From those stats Looks like AG and JD are the same type of players :4224:

Heck Byron's doing better than both

 

Yes, not enough Byrons on the team. Can't believe MB hasn't figured this out.

 

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11 hours ago, jwlk said:

you could also argue that everyone on the team has played poorly, this defencive hockey style may be hurting them lol

You could, but then you cant single out Galchenyuk, completely destroy his value and then trade him somewhere where he'll flourish so... 

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32 minutes ago, jwlk said:

i don't understand why there's a topic just for AG, there are far worse players than him on the roster, besides thought he has picked it up lately, but if hes that good and deserves all the attention why not

We used to have threads to each individual player, the coach, the GM and the Owner but they have been removed since the format changed.

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5 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Thought it was interesting the broadcast last night wouldn't stop talking about MacKinnon vs Drouin but never mentioned Yakupov vs. Galchenyuk.

Ya,,, never thought of that angle. 

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Galchenyuk is by far our most offensively gifted player.  I find that he plays decent defensively.  For example, when Carolina's Derek Ryan scored with 3 seconds left in the third, it was Benn that made the ill-advised pinch at the blueline with 11 seconds left, then Galchenyuk broke up the play and eliminated the scoring chance for 1/2 of a second, had Deslauriers been back checking as hard as AG27 did on that play then Ryan would not be left untouched to slap home the easy goal.  Do not tell me to remove my blinders, I watch every minute of hockey that this team plays, sometimes twice if my PVR is working.  That play is one small example of why +/- (or any other stat) can be an ineffective way to measure a player's value because the most valuable player on the ice during that play was AG27 and he was a -1.  If stats were the only way to value a player then teams would be saving themselves a whole bunch of money on flights for scouts, all you'd have to do it log into corsica to find a good trade.  Please do not get me wrong, I like stats, they are a good tool to help coaches and players focus on where they need to improve.  At the end of the day the only stat that matters is the one in the W column - if you want more of those then you need more goals, if you want more goals then in today's NHL you need less Jordie Benns, Karl Alzners and David Schlemkos and more Jeff Petrys.  The best teams in the NHL all have mobile D that help drive the offence by effectively breaking out of their zone.  If you want to win you need Candy like Galchenyuk, he's built for today's NHL and if he's traded for picks and prospects then his entire tenure with the Habs will have been a complete waste. 

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2 hours ago, Ravadak said:

 I failed to post in the game against Carolina. It was closed when I finally had the time, So I posted here in reference to one of Big Teds post.

I cannot for the live of me explain why Carr is not playing either he should be ahead of almost anyone of our forwards, he has only played 177 minutes of 5 on 5 hockey, but per minutes he has a higher scoring % then any forward  on our team

Player   TOI                                         5on5 Min             Points 5 on 5           % 5 on 5 points 

DANIEL.CARR                                     177.95                   8                              4.50%

PHILLIP.DANAULT                            564.75                   21                           3.72%

PAUL.BYRON                                     601.97                   21                           3.49%

NICOLAS.DESLAURIERS                 302.03                   10                           3.31%

MAX.PACIORETTY                            644.48                   20                           3.10%

BRENDAN.GALLAGHER                  621.8                     19                           3.06%

TOMAS.PLEKANEC                          645.17                   18                           2.79%

BYRON.FROESE                                 257.35                   7                              2.72%

ALEX.GALCHENYUK                         599.17                   15                           2.50%

CHARLES.HUDON                             539.87                   13                           2.41%

JONATHAN.DROUIN                       583.93                   14                           2.40%

ANDREW.SHAW                               565.48                   12                           2.12%

On a side note because I am in the Galchenyk thread, I am not sure how Galchenyk had a good game, when at the end of the game he is sitting with 0 points, -3, and only 1 recorded shot on net, in over  19 minutes of ice time and almost 3 minutes of PP time. I guess he must of looked really good doing it. 

I made a thread for you.:)

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