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Rebuild, or Retool?


kinot-2
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Someone once told me that there's always 3 options for every problem. You can choose option #1 (the right way), option #2 (the wrong way), or option #3, (do nothing).

Doing nothing is not an option, but in this case, it might be for MB :rolleyes: .

Now, there's some of us that would like to tank, get the best draft pick available, and restart our 6 year plan. Basically be sellers and rebuild from the ground up with draft picks which might take 3-4 years to get to the ECF or SCF.

Some of us would like to retool, make some adjustments, and hope for the best, but where Marc is concerned, I have little faith that he would make the correct moves needed to improve the team anytime soon. In my case, I could not hope for the Habs to lose any games, so, I'm on the retool side.

So, whatcha all think? Do we rebuild (tank) or retool (tinker)?

No fence sitting allowed.

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Normally I would think a retool is not a valid option but in our case we have a solid young core and a group of very enticing vets so we're actually a lot closer than you might think.  I do NOT believe Marc Bergevin is the guy to lead the retool though.  If we fire him and hire someone more forward thinking (Julien Brisebois perhaps?) you make a few key moves & see where it takes you.

 

You try your best to hold on to:

- Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Mete, Lehkonen, Danault, Sherbak, Hudon, Juulsen

You try your best to trade:

- Weber, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Alzner, Schlenko, Price (maybe)

and you listen to offers on

Shaw,  Byron, Petry, Benn, etc.

 

You make those key moves and see if you cant land a guy like Tavares or Carlson. 

This team  is turned around in a hurry. No need for a lengthy rebuild. 

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I say this team is a complete teardown, and although that puts me in the "rebuild" category,  I think the return we get on patches weber and price makes us a good team within 2 years if not never skipping a beat

In fact, if we hit on a couple of the prospects we get back, the team would be IMPROVED, wrap your head around that one

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I just don't see trading Price as an option. He has a full no trade clause and, with a young family I just don't see him willing to relocate. For that reason, I think the only option is a retool. As maas_art outlines, it is a very viable option with some of our young talent remaining. In either case, rebuild or retool, MB has proven he is NOT the guy to do it. 

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49 minutes ago, maas_art said:

You try your best to hold on to:

- Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Mete, Lehkonen, Danault, Sherbak, Hudon, Juulsen

You try your best to trade:

- Weber, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Alzner, Schlenko, Price (maybe)

and you listen to offers on

Shaw,  Byron, Petry, Benn, etc.

I agree with this. To me the team doesn't need to rebuild in the Sabres/pre-Crosby Penguins sense where you commit to 3+ years of sustained tanking, but the Price/Pacioretty/Weber core is done and it's time to move on and get as much back for them as possible. All 3 guys are aging out of their primes and expensive, if you can't be competitive while Weber is 32, Price is 30, and Pacioretty's 28. Ryan Poehling isn't going to take that core over the top in 3 years when they're even further past their prime (although maybe Tavares does?!).

I think Pacioretty can fetch at least a Duchene-level package and possibly more, and I think you could get a king's ransom for Weber. Price I could go either way on, although I really feel like say Bill Belichick would have moved him after multiple injuries to the same knee and so many runs of inconsistency. I don't think he needs to go but I think you have to think really hard about it depending on what's available. 

 

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I’m in the do nothing category because as long as we have the same gm we will get completely hosed if we give up our core players.

If we had a competent gm then I agree with Jedi. Then again if we had a competent gm we wouldn’t need this thread & we’d be fighting for first in our conference.

I’m not sitting on the fence, I just know MB will continue to screw things up until Molson shows up.

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36 minutes ago, HabsRuleForever said:

I’m in the do nothing category because as long as we have the same gm we will get completely hosed if we give up our core players.

If we had a competent gm then I agree with Jedi. Then again if we had a competent gm we wouldn’t need this thread & we’d be fighting for first in our conference.

I’m not sitting on the fence, I just know MB will continue to screw things up until Molson shows up.

100% Agreed. :2008122810303:

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

 

 

You try your best to hold on to:

- Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Mete, Lehkonen, Danault, Sherbak, Hudon, Juulsen

You try your best to trade:

- Weber, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Alzner, Schlenko, Price (maybe)

and you listen to offers on

Shaw,  Byron, Petry, Benn, etc.

 

 

With the possibility of so many of those players gone, I would consider that a rebuild.

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I think a 5-year or 6-year plan is probably unnecessary. However, I'm not sure how long it might take for us to rebuild our D, which is of great concern. I think you definitely tank this season, get the best player available in the draft, and move forward from there. I guess you make Tavares and Carlson offers on July 1st, but... I think it's unlikely either of them choose Montreal as a destination. The team's performance this season has been putrid, our taxes are quite high compared to some other cities, the media is more intense in Montreal, etc. etc. etc. Why would these guys choose here? It's not like they can even say, "Best goaltender in the world," anymore.

One thing I know for certain, Bergevin SHOULD NOT be in charge of this team anymore. The one thing he HAS proven: He can't execute a plan to make this team a contender. That's not going to change if he stays on board. In fact, I still worry about what his "moves" are going to be in the next month leading up to the deadline. He'll probably make the dumb decision to resign Plekanec, not realizing he could trade him for an asset and then resign him in the summer if Julien is that desperate to keep him.

I am cool with/in favor of cleaning house on players like Pacioretty, Weber, Price, Plekanec,and Alzner (LOL, not likely). Those are the pieces (excluding Alzner) that give us the best change to rebuild/retool quickly.

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12 hours ago, habs1952 said:

With the possibility of so many of those players gone, I would consider that a rebuild.

I understand what you're saying i think that most people consider a "rebuild" to be a lengthy process though & even though we may turn over 5 or 6 players (and bring back 10 or more) I think overall we have a strong young core, they just all tend to play a couple of positions so we need to flesh out our roster. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

I understand what you're saying i think that most people consider a "rebuild" to be a lengthy process though & even though we may turn over 5 or 6 players (and bring back 10 or more) I think overall we have a strong young core, they just all tend to play a couple of positions so we need to flesh out our roster. 

Rebuild: Out with the old, in with the young.

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19 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

And most importantly out with our GM first.

really wish we knew what molson was thinking. 

Obviously he's not going to come out & say anything negative about MB while he's still employed but surely he has to have at least considered moving on from him. There's been a number of insiders who have said no matter what happened, we wouldnt fire MB during the season, its just not Molson's MO.

I think if MB doesnt make any trades before the deadline there's a really good chance he's been told he's being let go & not allowed to make moves. 

 

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5 hours ago, maas_art said:

I understand what you're saying i think that most people consider a "rebuild" to be a lengthy process though & even though we may turn over 5 or 6 players (and bring back 10 or more) I think overall we have a strong young core, they just all tend to play a couple of positions so we need to flesh out our roster. 

I should have said 'youth movement'. To me though it's still a rebuild except you're just replacing the foundation which is beginning to crack.

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

really wish we knew what molson was thinking. 

Obviously he's not going to come out & say anything negative about MB while he's still employed but surely he has to have at least considered moving on from him. There's been a number of insiders who have said no matter what happened, we wouldnt fire MB during the season, its just not Molson's MO.

I think if MB doesnt make any trades before the deadline there's a really good chance he's been told he's being let go & not allowed to make moves. 

 

I haven't got much faith in Molson either, but If that's the case *fingers crossed until the end of the trade deadline*

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

I should have said 'youth movement'. To me though it's still a rebuild except you're just replacing the foundation which is beginning to crack.

Totally.  I think we're just disagreeing on semantics but I honestly believe if we had a GM who would make some tough moves (guaranteed vets like Weber for high end prospects like Nurse or Thomas or Dunn etc)  then we would already be better now - and we would be a LOT better in the very near future.

With the core of Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Danault, Mete, Juulsen, etc - and assuming we keep some guys like Petry, and Shaw and maybe Byron etc- we;re not 5 years away from contending or anything, like you would normally have in the old days of a rebuild. 

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http://montrealgazette.com/sports/hockey/nhl/hockey-inside-out/what-the-puck-canadiens-need-to-take-cerebral-approach-to-any-remake

 

So if the man in the snappy suits is staying, there really is only one course of action before the end of the season. Don’t do anything radical. You can sell off a couple of pieces at the trade deadline, like say Tomas Plekanec, who can at least net you a second-round draft pick.

But my advice to Bergevin’s boss is don’t let him remake this team. I understand it is very difficult to change general managers mid-season, because most of the best candidates will not be able to leave their jobs with other teams, so wait until the end of the season.

Make no mistake, this team needs to be blown up and no player is untouchable. Management needs to do what Bob Gainey did in summer 2009. Change the DNA of the team and pray that you have more success than Gainey did with his remake, but don’t do it at the trade deadline.

When the season ends and Montreal misses the playoffs for the second time in three years, Molson needs to change GMs and also appoint a president of hockey operations. And that president of hockey operations needs to be a smart, seasoned hockey manager who has had success running an NHL team. Don’t hire an assistant GM from the Chicago Blackhawks who has no real senior executive experience.

Then get to work. Trade whoever needs to be traded. If you are, indeed, planning on trading Max Pacioretty, make sure you get a young centre in return. If you’re going to trade Price, get a young centre in return (along with a goalie). Make smart trades, which is a new concept around these parts. Don’t trade one all-star defenceman for another all-star defenceman. Don’t trade a stud D-man prospect for a winger when what you really need is a centre.

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Ya know,,, if we could shed Weber (contract, and I don't believe that Weber is a stud D-man), then we would have loads of $$$ to throw at JT, and still have enough for another top end D. . Jus sayin is all. 

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11 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

Ya know,,, if we could shed Weber (contract, and I don't believe that Weber is a stud D-man), then we would have loads of $$$ to throw at JT, and still have enough for another top end D. . Jus sayin is all. 

JT won't be coming to the Habs. The team is just too bad and he'll want to play for a team with a shot at a cup in the next couple of years.

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I see people (rightfully) blaming everything from Bergevin all the way down to the trainwreck that is Laval.  But why is Molson getting a pass?  This organization is a stinking pile and it starts all the way right from the top.  I don't remember the gold glory days, but let's simply talk since the 1980's.  During that time we've had the Langway/Jarvis trade, the Chelios trade, the Roy trade, the Gomez trade (should rightfully be called the McDonagh/Higgins trade) and the Desjardin/LeClair trade (on that note, I know LeClair is from VT, but doesn't sound French?  Apparently not French enough).  And those are just the blockbuster trades.  We can't seem to go five years without being on the receiving end of a blockbuster screwup.

All this didn't even including the smaller ones like Pierre Turgeon/Corson trade, the Damphousse trade, the Tucker & Richer/Poulin trade the Recchi/Zubrus trade and the Lemieux for the WRONG Turgeon trade.

Rebuild?  Retool?  What's the point?  You can blame Serge Savard on you want but who hired him?  What confidence does anyone have that Molson will not screw this up all over again?  Does he even care?  I'll go right ahead and say it.  I think Gillett is the best habs owner since at least 1980.

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1 hour ago, Disillusioned1 said:

I see people (rightfully) blaming everything from Bergevin all the way down to the trainwreck that is Laval.  But why is Molson getting a pass?  This organization is a stinking pile and it starts all the way right from the top.  I don't remember the gold glory days, but let's simply talk since the 1980's.  During that time we've had the Langway/Jarvis trade, the Chelios trade, the Roy trade, the Gomez trade (should rightfully be called the McDonagh/Higgins trade) and the Desjardin/LeClair trade (on that note, I know LeClair is from VT, but doesn't sound French?  Apparently not French enough).  And those are just the blockbuster trades.  We can't seem to go five years without being on the receiving end of a blockbuster screwup.

All this didn't even including the smaller ones like Pierre Turgeon/Corson trade, the Damphousse trade, the Tucker & Richer/Poulin trade the Recchi/Zubrus trade and the Lemieux for the WRONG Turgeon trade.

Rebuild?  Retool?  What's the point?  You can blame Serge Savard on you want but who hired him?  What confidence does anyone have that Molson will not screw this up all over again?  Does he even care?  I'll go right ahead and say it.  I think Gillett is the best habs owner since at least 1980.

Molson does NOT get a pass from this disaster of a team and for keeping an incompetent GM employed.

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1 hour ago, habs1952 said:

JT won't be coming to the Habs. The team is just too bad and he'll want to play for a team with a shot at a cup in the next couple of years.

Also, I'm sure that most NHL players are well aware that playing here means they will be manacled under our current GM's incompetence and his micro-management. All with the blessings of Mr. Molson.

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Regardless of rebuild or retool. It is time to move away from Price. This whole team has been decided around him for many years. If they do not act now his value will drop considerably as he get more fed up with the losses. His appearance at the all star game is very undeserved but shows the league still believes in him.  I personally would not move Max or Weber. Would get rid of Plekanec and Byron at the deadline, they will have some value. Jerabec should be signed to an extension already. The rest of the defense could be moved  at any return.   

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