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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Detroit received a first rounder (2018), a second rounder (2019), and a third rounder (2021) from Vegas. I do not believe that's even close in value to Edmonton's first rounder (2018), Nurse, and a prospect. And yes, Max is worth more than Tatar, but I think we need to "bridge the gap" here. Buffalo received a first rounder (2019), a fourth rounder (2019), and Daniel O'Regan from San Jose. I still don't think this compares in value to Edmonton's first rounder (2018), Nurse, and a prospect.

I think many GMs would, indeed, view Max as a consistent 30-goal man. However, I just don't see us getting a top-10 pick and a top-4 LD with him. Prove me wrong, MB... Prove me wrong.

Thing is I dont see either Tatar or Kane as strict comparables. They are close in the sense that there havent been any pure goal scorers since maybe Kessel to hit the market, but i think most GMs would value Pacioretty much higher.   Tatar is a good player but not on Patches' level.  Kane has tones of skills but was a short-term rental.  So while I agree that the ask for pacioretty is much higher i think he should be able to command that.
 

Maybe you're right though. Maybe we could only get 10th overall and Nurse (which Id still do) but Id aim for the stars in a deal with Chiarelli.   

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45 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Thing is I dont see either Tatar or Kane as strict comparables. They are close in the sense that there havent been any pure goal scorers since maybe Kessel to hit the market, but i think most GMs would value Pacioretty much higher.   Tatar is a good player but not on Patches' level.  Kane has tones of skills but was a short-term rental.  So while I agree that the ask for pacioretty is much higher i think he should be able to command that.
 

Maybe you're right though. Maybe we could only get 10th overall and Nurse (which Id still do) but Id aim for the stars in a deal with Chiarelli.   

Maybe we have a prospect of our own we could "toss in" to get Edmonton interested. Michael McCarron, Kerby Rychel, Daniel Carr, Charles Hudon... I don't know. It isn't a very exciting bunch of 20-something year-olds. I certainly like your plan of acquiring Nurse and a top-10 pick. I think that's smart and a good way to help build up our center ice prospect pipeline.

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Maybe we have a prospect of our own we could "toss in" to get Edmonton interested. Michael McCarron, Kerby Rychel, Daniel Carr, Charles Hudon... I don't know. It isn't a very exciting bunch of 20-something year-olds. I certainly like your plan of acquiring Nurse and a top-10 pick. I think that's smart and a good way to help build up our center ice prospect pipeline.

Yeah id love to be able to add one of the top centres from this year's draft as well as our #3 pick (impact winger most likely).   If its Veleno or Kotkaniemi  + Poehling you've got to figure you have your #2 centre there.  Sign Tavares... now we're a totally different team. 

26 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I think the pick is possible but not much else. I don't see why they would even move nurse. RNH would KINDA make sense maybe but they need D

Two reasons:  1) a top 10 goal scorer from the past 6 years who has been elite even without a bonefide centre is worth a lot more than one first round pick. Yes, its a guaranteed #10 overall pick, so its not like a "random" first rounder but even still, you're taking the risk of drafting vs. the sure thing of an established player.  Pacioretty > than the #10 pick for sure.  Is he Darnell Nurse greater (or Klefbom or someone else)?  Thats for Chiarelli and MB to decide.    2) Edmonton has sucked at drafting & they may well want a ' sure thing' vs drafting a player who yet again doesnt work out.

Im sure its all moot though, i cant see MB having the foresight to even attempt a move like this. 

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The 2018 NHL Draft will take place June 22-23 in Dallas. The order through Monday night is as follows:

1. Buffalo
2. Carolina
3. Montreal
4. Ottawa
5. Arizona
6. Detroit
7. Vancouver
8. Chicago
9. NY Rangers
10. Edmonton
11. NY Islanders
12. NY Islanders (from Calgary)
13. Dallas
14. Philadelphia (from St. Louis)
15. Florida 
16. Colorado 
17. New Jersey
18. Columbus Blue Jackets
19. Phildadelphia
20. Los Angeles
21. San Jose
22. Ottawa (from Pittsburgh)
23. Anaheim
24. Minnesota
25. Toronto
26. NY Rangers (from Boston)

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13 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

https://www.tsn.ca/report-tkachuk-to-stay-at-bu-for-2018-19-1.1079270

This should cement picking Zedina at 3rd. Can't see MB taking a flyer vs a guy who says he's not available to us next year.

Lets hope. Admittedly I havent seen many of these guys play and im no scout, but i get the sense that Tkachuck is higher up on the list than he should be based on things (MB salivates over) like grit and character. 

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Most ranking systems have Svechnikov ranked at #2 and Zadina ranked at #3, so if everything follows suit, Zadina will be a Montreal Canadien and that's exactly what Zadina is hoping for. 

"I would really love to play for the Canadiens. Montreal is the greatest hockey city in Canada" Zadina said recently "I've followed really closely Jagr and Plekanec's career. I'm in constant contact with Tomas Plekanec".

Zadina went on to say that he's not worried about media pressure or any outside noise because Canadiens' fans are the best in the hockey world. He was shocked that the Canadiens moved up to #3 in the lottery and hopes his dreams of becoming a Canadien come true. 

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14 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

Most ranking systems have Svechnikov ranked at #2 and Zadina ranked at #3, so if everything follows suit, Zadina will be a Montreal Canadien and that's exactly what Zadina is hoping for. 

"I would really love to play for the Canadiens. Montreal is the greatest hockey city in Canada" Zadina said recently "I've followed really closely Jagr and Plekanec's career. I'm in constant contact with Tomas Plekanec".

Zadina went on to say that he's not worried about media pressure or any outside noise because Canadiens' fans are the best in the hockey world. He was shocked that the Canadiens moved up to #3 in the lottery and hopes his dreams of becoming a Canadien come true. 

I dont think you would go far wrong with either player.  Svechnikov looks maybe a touch more ready for this year but i think both will stick with their clubs from what ive seen and read.


I do think there's an outside chance Carolina takes Zadina because of his connection with Necas  (in which case we'd take Svech) although on the flipside there's also a chance we draft Zadina & try to acquire Necas ourselves in a trade... 

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56 minutes ago, kinot-2 said:

Most ranking systems have Svechnikov ranked at #2 and Zadina ranked at #3, so if everything follows suit, Zadina will be a Montreal Canadien and that's exactly what Zadina is hoping for. 

"I would really love to play for the Canadiens. Montreal is the greatest hockey city in Canada" Zadina said recently "I've followed really closely Jagr and Plekanec's career. I'm in constant contact with Tomas Plekanec".

Zadina went on to say that he's not worried about media pressure or any outside noise because Canadiens' fans are the best in the hockey world. He was shocked that the Canadiens moved up to #3 in the lottery and hopes his dreams of becoming a Canadien come true. 

God, I'm going to be so sad when Bergevin takes Tkachuk because of... you know... "character" and "attitude."

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6 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

God, I'm going to be so sad when Bergevin takes Tkachuk because of... you know... "character" and "attitude."

Who knows though... I remember everyone saying that it would be Matthews, Laine, and Puljujarvi... but Columbus drafted Dubois instead of Puljujarvi... and made the right decision

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

Who knows though... I remember everyone saying that it would be Matthews, Laine, and Puljujarvi... but Columbus drafted Dubois instead of Puljujarvi... and made the right decision

 

I wonder more about Kotkaniemi being this year's Dubois, given that he's the fast-rising centerman. Tkachuk is pretty much as advertised, and if anything his stock has fallen a bit over time. Some experts, who had him battling for a top 2-3 spot a few months ago, now have him being drafted as low as 5th or 7th.

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

God, I'm going to be so sad when Bergevin takes Tkachuk because of... you know... "character" and "attitude."

So on the same day Tkachuk is rumored to have accepted going back to BU next year, Zadina comes out saying he'd love to play for the Habs... hint hint and then hint hint again, Bergevin.

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10 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Detroit received a first rounder (2018), a second rounder (2019), and a third rounder (2021) from Vegas. I do not believe that's even close in value to Edmonton's first rounder (2018), Nurse, and a prospect. And yes, Max is worth more than Tatar, but I think we need to "bridge the gap" here. Buffalo received a first rounder (2019), a fourth rounder (2019), and Daniel O'Regan from San Jose. I still don't think this compares in value to Edmonton's first rounder (2018), Nurse, and a prospect.

I think many GMs would, indeed, view Max as a consistent 30-goal man. However, I just don't see us getting a top-10 pick and a top-4 LD with him. Prove me wrong, MB... Prove me wrong.

I'm thinking the same as you. Patches is turning 30 in November. I can't see a team giving up a few assets to get get him for one year. And because of his age common sense dictates you don't sign him to a big contract for a lot of years. Sure, make the best deal you can to bring in some youth but I can see MB signing him for 8 years at 10 mil per year.  

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^^ The main problem is that most teams with top 10 picks aren't looking for veteran players with one year remaining on their contracts. Those are win-now players, and most teams picking at the bottom don't have that need. But Edmonton could be one exception, because they need winger help and because they could probably turn things around quickly with McDavid and playing in a weak division. Carolina's another exception that isn't too far off of making the playoffs and with an owner who wants to win now.

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18 hours ago, maas_art said:

Lets hope. Admittedly I havent seen many of these guys play and im no scout, but i get the sense that Tkachuck is higher up on the list than he should be based on things (MB salivates over) like grit and character. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfptxni0CiA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEvEvPpcfY

Let the highlights speak for themselves.

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Had an interesting discussion with a friend who lives near Barrie & has watched Svechnikov a lot.  He is very knowledgable and suggests that Svechnikov would absolutely be worth trading up for.     Indeed, the sporting news posted an article the other day saying that the gap between Svech and Dahlin was nowhere near as great as people are making it out. They are both elite, potential franchise type players.

Some people suggest Carolina may take Zadina because of his chemistry with Necas who they drafted last year.   But should we risk that?   


Knowing Carolina is looking to make a splash with the new GM and new direction, do you try to trade them a roster player? Do you try to trade them a player + the #3 pick?   Do you try to trade them draft picks ?   According to this site: https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/4/25/4262594/nhl-draft-pick-value-trading-up  it would probably take our #3 and our #33 (historically) to move up that one spot.

What do you guys think?  Would it be worth trying to move up & pick #2? Or do we just leave it & see what happens?   Here's the link to the sporting news article btw:
Why Andrei Svechnikov's star potential is on par with Rasmus Dahlin

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Had an interesting discussion with a friend who lives near Barrie & has watched Svechnikov a lot.  He is very knowledgable and suggests that Svechnikov would absolutely be worth trading up for.     Indeed, the sporting news posted an article the other day saying that the gap between Svech and Dahlin was nowhere near as great as people are making it out. They are both elite, potential franchise type players.

Some people suggest Carolina may take Zadina because of his chemistry with Necas who they drafted last year.   But should we risk that?   


Knowing Carolina is looking to make a splash with the new GM and new direction, do you try to trade them a roster player? Do you try to trade them a player + the #3 pick?   Do you try to trade them draft picks ?   According to this site: https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/4/25/4262594/nhl-draft-pick-value-trading-up  it would probably take our #3 and our #33 (historically) to move up that one spot.

What do you guys think?  Would it be worth trying to move up & pick #2? Or do we just leave it & see what happens?   Here's the link to the sporting news article btw:
Why Andrei Svechnikov's star potential is on par with Rasmus Dahlin

I still do believe Dahlin is a better pick than Svechnikov, but yes AS was rated the #1 prospect and was overtaken by Dahlin this year, so it wasn't always as clearcut. The major differences for me... Dahlin has been playing against men and holding his own, whereas Svechnikov is in junior. It's impressive, because Dahlin's a D man and it typically takes D men longer to mature, yet he's playing a mature game already at such a young age. That has a higher likelihood of translating to the NHL game, whereas scorers in junior (Daigle, Yakupov, etc.) don't always find it as easy at the NHL level when they get pushed around a bit more and play against stronger D. Both players will be good, but I'll take the guy who looks good at a more NHL-comparable level and who plays a position of greater impact in the game. I've always said that a true #1 D man who can skate, control the puck, run your PP, etc. and play 25-28 minutes a game is always going to be more valuable than a forward who plays 16-20 minutes.

As for us, would I trade up? No, probably not. I do think Svechnikov is ahead of Zadina, but again, I don't think it's a guarantee that will hold out to be true long-term. Both guys have a good shot at being elite NHL scorers. But if one guy projects as Selanne and another as Bondra or one as Laine and another as Patrick Kane, I'm not sure it's clear who's going to have more value and I'm not sure it's worth moving up when we're still getting an elite player at #3 who plays the same position and fills the same role. I would be much more interested in making the jump to #1 for Dahlin but doubt that's likely to happen. I think the better strategy is to see if we can deal one of our assets (Pacioretty, Price, or Weber) in exchange for another top 10-12 pick, be it with the Canes or Oilers or Rangers or Isles, so long as we're getting another asset or two for a lower pick. In other words, I'd do Pacioretty straight up for the #2, but if we're getting a #10 or 11, I'd want more than just that pick for a less-than-sure thing. That's for Bergevin to feel out what market value is and make the best move.

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I would trade up (our 3rd overall and a 2nd rounder for their 2nd overall), IF Timmins really preferred Svechnikov. 

After reading the Canes' boards, they don't seem to care that Zadina played with Necas and they are almost unanimously in favour of picking Svechnivok 2nd overall as everything currently stands.

But add a 2nd rounder, and their tune may change.

Their options are: 

1) Keep the pick and take Svechnikov

2) Trade the pick, take Zadina, and get a nice 2nd round prospect as well

They might go for it.   

 

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^^

Yeah, it really depends on how highly Svechnikov is valued by our scouting guys. I hate to be the one to bring this up because I think it's overrated really but where he's clearly ahead of Zadina is size. If you look at our roster post Pacioretty (assuming he's gone once the season starts), the 'biggest' forwards we have left are De La Rose and Scherbak at 6'2 followed by Deslauriers and Galchenyuk at 6'1. Adding some size and scoring in Svechnikov certainly wouldn't hurt and could give us a bit of a different look up front.

Would I trade up for that reason alone? Definitely not. But if Timmins thinks Svechnikov will be the better player and Carolina is also willing to trade down, it's a factor we should consider nonetheless.

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9 hours ago, ChiLla said:

^^

Yeah, it really depends on how highly Svechnikov is valued by our scouting guys. I hate to be the one to bring this up because I think it's overrated really but where he's clearly ahead of Zadina is size. If you look at our roster post Pacioretty (assuming he's gone once the season starts), the 'biggest' forwards we have left are De La Rose and Scherbak at 6'2 followed by Deslauriers and Galchenyuk at 6'1. Adding some size and scoring in Svechnikov certainly wouldn't hurt and could give us a bit of a different look up front.

Would I trade up for that reason alone? Definitely not. But if Timmins thinks Svechnikov will be the better player and Carolina is also willing to trade down, it's a factor we should consider nonetheless.

Size mattering is dead in the new era of hockey.  Or if you prefer the way Pierre McGuire put it:  "Heavy hockey is dead."  

Size is not a factor.  Skill and speed are the 2 most valued assets in today's game.  We lack skill and speed.

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5 hours ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

Size mattering is dead in the new era of hockey.  Or if you prefer the way Pierre McGuire put it:  "Heavy hockey is dead."  

Size is not a factor.  Skill and speed are the 2 most valued assets in today's game.  We lack skill and speed.

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking about heavy hockey, grit, truculence or Pierre McGuire's weird insights. Skill, speed and size don't have to be mutually exclusive, just take a look at  Winnipeg's forwards. Hockey will always be a physical sport and having a balanced lineup in terms of size is an asset because you're automatically harder to play against and tougher to defend, as opposed to having a one-dimensional group of forwards who may be skilled but are forced to play on the perimeter due to a lack of reach/size/weight. Svechnikov is an incredibly skilled forward with a great shot and remarkable puck skills, the fact that he happens to be 6'3 is a bonus and something we currently don't have. All I'm saying is that it's something to consider.

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8 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I'm not talking about heavy hockey, grit, truculence or Pierre McGuire's weird insights. Skill, speed and size don't have to be mutually exclusive, just take a look at  Winnipeg's forwards. Hockey will always be a physical sport and having a balanced lineup in terms of size is an asset because you're automatically harder to play against and tougher to defend, as opposed to having a one-dimensional group of forwards who may be skilled but are forced to play on the perimeter due to a lack of reach/size/weight. Svechnikov is an incredibly skilled forward with a great shot and remarkable puck skills, the fact that he happens to be 6'3 is a bonus and something we currently don't have. All I'm saying is that it's something to consider.

Yeah i agree.  Size is no longer what it once was but all things being equal, if you have two identical players and one is bigger and taller, you take the bigger one. He's got a longer reach, he's harder to knock off the puck and he's stronger on the boards.

Point in fact: David Desharnais. If DD had been exactly the same player he was but was 50 lbs and 8 inches taller, he'd still be our number one centre. He had great vision and passing, his big problem was that a moderate wind would knock him over.  This made him a perimeter player out of necessity and a pretty poor defensive player (even though he often hustled back & tried to backcheck). He was completely ineffective because of his size. 

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15 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yeah i agree.  Size is no longer what it once was but all things being equal, if you have two identical players and one is bigger and taller, you take the bigger one. He's got a longer reach, he's harder to knock off the puck and he's stronger on the boards.

Point in fact: David Desharnais. If DD had been exactly the same player he was but was 50 lbs and 8 inches taller, he'd still be our number one centre. He had great vision and passing, his big problem was that a moderate wind would knock him over.  This made him a perimeter player out of necessity and a pretty poor defensive player (even though he often hustled back & tried to backcheck). He was completely ineffective because of his size. 

IMHO not completely

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The last time we had 3 picks in the top 45 it was McDonough, Pacioretty and Subban with Yannick Weber 73rd. We also had McCarron, de la Rose, Fucale, Lehkonen, and Andrighetto more recently get picked all in the top 86. This year we have 3 picks in the top 38 and 6 in the top 66 with Washington's pick somewhere between 56 and 60. If we can harvest 4 or 5 good prospects this will be one of our best draft years in a very long time..

The trades for these picks are starting to look very good. We have given up Fleischman, Weise, Eller (so far for Ikonen) and Plekanec for three 2nd rounders. If this draft becomes a fail I don't think Bergevin will be here much longer even with the team making the playoffs in 2019. With some of the prospects currently in the system like Mete, Juulson, Scherbek and Lernout, developing into NHLer's it is time to  take advantage of the draft this year. Lets start keeping these prospects. Considering our recent draft positions we aren't doing poorly with our  picks, but we definitely need to take advantage of all the early picks we have this year and find a gem or 2 with some of our later ones. I am not too interested in trading these picks given our recent draftss and the chance to put in place a coaching staff that can better develop these picks in Laval come 2020.

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14 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

IMHO not completely

Sorry - I should have said "Completely ineffective as a #1c"  -  i do think he was a totally effective exploitation centre. If we had had a true #1 and a solid #3 checking guy, DD would have been ideal as a #2 centre who you would put out in a completely offensive role. 

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