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32 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I don't think our drafting with Timmins has been too bad. Is it a coincidence that it was much better under different GM's?  I certainly see a correlation. 

you might be right and what Ted says might bolster your argument. All I'm saying is that the most recent drafts that are ready to be analyzed have been pretty bad for us. Whose fault it is might be difficult to say... and it might not be drafting but development because are successful players were good enough to start in NHL right away or played (and developed) in Europe

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1 hour ago, habsisme said:

you might be right and what Ted says might bolster your argument. All I'm saying is that the most recent drafts that are ready to be analyzed have been pretty bad for us. Whose fault it is might be difficult to say... and it might not be drafting but development because are successful players were good enough to start in NHL right away or played (and developed) in Europe

Absolutely agree with you about development... Lefebvre was a terrible coach, and the AHL team in general failed in all facets. Our best draft picks in recent history either pretty much bypassed the AHL (Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, Sergachev, Mete, etc.) or were already really good when they got to the AHL and didn't spend long there (Subban, Gallagher, etc.). The guys who were there under Lefebvre all seemed to regress, lose confidence, or take much longer than usual to graduate. Hudon spent a few years there, but I don't think he was any better coming out of the AHL than he was in his first season there. Tinordi got worse. Leblanc got worse. Beaulieu overcame bad coaching but probably could have and should have been better than he turned out. Avtsin flopped. McCarron has been a bust and shuffled around the line-up. We'll see about Juulsen and Scherbak, but it's too early to tell. In general, Lefebvre did nothing and it really set us back and IMO, made Timmins' draft work look less impressive than it actually was.

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Hard to argue for Lefebvre with the terrible finishes the team had and the minimal development. He may have helped players develop some defensive responsibilities but players were not given much of a chance to excel. I agree with the philosophy of developing players defensively, but we had two coaches with what appeared to be the same approach in Therrien and Lefebvre. My concern is Julien may be cut from the same cloth. If you we're making coaching changes we need to take a new perspective much like we have wone this year with Bouchard and Ducharme.

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3 hours ago, habsisme said:

you might be right and what Ted says might bolster your argument. All I'm saying is that the most recent drafts that are ready to be analyzed have been pretty bad for us. Whose fault it is might be difficult to say... and it might not be drafting but development because are successful players were good enough to start in NHL right away or played (and developed) in Europe

Once again though,,,, that's on the GM's head for not doing his job properly and hiring qualified personnel. Hard to blame Timmins when the guy at the top doesn't use the tools given to him adequately, or refuses to follow recommendations. Timmins was highly regarded in the profession pre Bergevin.

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Lots of talk about dealing Pacioretty for another top 10 pick... I'll say this: if you're dealing Pacioretty for a pick, then you have to be sure that the guy you're drafting is better than a player you could deal Pacioretty for straight up. In other words, if the Habs could deal Pacioretty for a Robert Thomas or Gabe Vilardi or Henrik Borgstrom, for example, then to make a deal of Pacioretty for a #8 or #10 pick that they use to select a Kotkaniemi or Veleno only makes sense if your scouts evaluate that player as being better than the other three (or that the other clubs just won't deal away their drafted center prospects). Otherwise, you better be getting back multiple pieces...

I know some people dump on Pacioretty but if you believe McKenzie and Friedman and Dreger and so on, he has great trade value and there are a lot of teams calling the Habs about him. Just imagine for a second that you're Edmonton, for example. You have a great 1-2 center punch, even a great 1-2-3 center punch if you choose to use RNH and Draisaitl both down the middle. But at the very least, you have to know that your centers are at the peak of their game right now. Forwards peak between 19-23 now, so that's where those guys are. Your best shot a having McDavid and Draisaitl lead you to a Cup is now. So you absolutely need to patch up your wing and defence situations and you can't just wait 2-3 years to see how things play out. Puljujarvi might end up being a bust or he might be a late bloomer, but he's unlikely to score 25+ goals next season. Lucic is fading. The other guys they have at wing are a collection of junk for now. Pacioretty could instantly turn around that line-up, and if you're in win-now mode, you probably don't care as much about giving up future assets... for the Oilers to think about a Dobson or Veleno or Hayton or so on at 10 doesn't make a lot of sense to their plan. Even a Tkachuk probably doesn't help you for a year or two. If they could grab a Zadina or Wahlstrom (who IMO is the guy they're eyeing), then yes, those players can probably help your wing situation right away. But for that to happen, Edmonton would realistically need to trade into the top 5-6. So IMO, Chiarelli's first play is to try to move up into the 2-6 range, but if he can't do that, I think there's a high likelihood he looks at dealing that pick for a Pacioretty or Hoffman or so on. I think the odds of Edm keeping 10 are lower than them trading it, be it to move up or to acquire a proven NHL player, likely at wing. So the move is certainly there for the Habs. I don't think they're trading 3 to fall to 10, because that has a substantial risk of seeing you lose Zadina and Kotkaniemi. But I could see them looking at Pacman for the 10 and something else.

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As of right now, this is my mock top 10 for the draft (who I think will get chosen if there are no trades, not who I think the teams should take):

1. Buf- Dahlin

2. Car- Svechnikov

3. Mtl- Zadina

4. Ott- Tkachuk

5. Ari- Hughes

6. Det- Bouchard

7. Van- Dobson

8. Chi- Kotkaniemi

9. NYR- Wahlstrom

10. Edm- Boqvist

 

All that to say that IMO, if we're looking for a 2nd 1st rounder, we'd have to get into the top 7 to move in front of Chicago for JK... don't see Ott, Ari, Det, or Van trading their picks to be honest, so that really leaves Carolina as the only option, and that could be expensive to grab the #2. If you do get it, it sets up Svechnikov at 2 and Kotkaniemi at 3 though.

The more accessible scenario, as I posted about above, is dealing for Edm's 10 or one of the Isles picks at 11 or 12, which maybe gives you a shot at Boqvist or Dobson (whichever falls) and also a look at Joe Veleno if you think he's worth it. Hayton should also be there, as well as Rasmus Kupari. So some options at center, but all those guys have some question marks as to whether they're going to be 2nd or 3rd line pivots at the NHL level.

 

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https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/two-top-end-centres-the-habs-should-consider-with-third-pick~1408900\\The last time the Canadiens selected third overall in the draft, they took Alex Galchenyuk, hoping that he was going to be their centre of the future. That hasn't quite worked out, so should they go with a centre again in this month's draft? Craig Button weighs in.

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Another thing the habs have lacked is in the goal scorers department .With Zadina setting there at three  ,you take him. If you can get another pick at 10th,11th,or 12th ,there are a couple of good centers in that area I like Veleno,Hayton,Dellandrea,or Mcleod .With the second round picks ,i would hope montreal is looking at guys like Neol,Groulx McIsaac,Beaudin,Drury,Sutter,Fortier,Bouchard and O'reilly.

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4 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Lots of talk about dealing Pacioretty for another top 10 pick... I'll say this: if you're dealing Pacioretty for a pick, then you have to be sure that the guy you're drafting is better than a player you could deal Pacioretty for straight up. In other words, if the Habs could deal Pacioretty for a Robert Thomas or Gabe Vilardi or Henrik Borgstrom, for example, then to make a deal of Pacioretty for a #8 or #10 pick that they use to select a Kotkaniemi or Veleno only makes sense if your scouts evaluate that player as being better than the other three (or that the other clubs just won't deal away their drafted center prospects). Otherwise, you better be getting back multiple pieces...

Agree totally.  I think that FMV back last trade deadline was a 1st a top prospect and a mid-level roster player.   If we're trading with a team for their first at this year's draft its a known commodity (ie 10th overall) so that adds a lot more than a random 1st rounder.  So i think if you could, for example, trade with Edmonton for Nurse + 10th overall for  Pacioretty thats fair value (you lose that 3rd piece because you know exactly what pick you're getting).  Of course you would also be smart to wait until 9th has picked to make the move, so you can ensure the player you want is still available. 

 

 

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I really don't have faith in Bergevin's talent evaluation... If Timmins says to draft a center at number 3 and we take Kotkaniemi, I can live with that. However, I don't see how we wouldn't take Zadina or Svechnikov... By all accounts, these guys are top of class and deserve to be taking number 2 and 3.

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4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I really don't have faith in Bergevin's talent evaluation... If Timmins says to draft a center at number 3 and we take Kotkaniemi, I can live with that. However, I don't see how we wouldn't take Zadina or Svechnikov... By all accounts, these guys are top of class and deserve to be taking number 2 and 3.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Carolina might take Zadina because of the Necas connection. If thats true, I think we 100% have to nab Svechnikov.   If things go as planned though, & Dahlin and Svech are off the table, I think there's a legitimate chance we either take Kotkaniemi or, even trade down for a prospect + lower top 10 pick and take him then.  Im not saying its the right move, but it wouldnt surprise me.  Although to be honest, nothing really would at this point. 

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55 minutes ago, maas_art said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Carolina might take Zadina because of the Necas connection. If thats true, I think we 100% have to nab Svechnikov.   If things go as planned though, & Dahlin and Svech are off the table, I think there's a legitimate chance we either take Kotkaniemi or, even trade down for a prospect + lower top 10 pick and take him then.  Im not saying its the right move, but it wouldnt surprise me.  Although to be honest, nothing really would at this point. 

I agree with you on the first count. I'd take Svechnikov and not even debate Kotkaniemi if he were left by Carolina. If it's Zadina vs. Kotkaniemi, I think there's room for debate and I don't know what the right answer is.

I'm less sure about a trade down. Chances are that if someone's trading up to 3, it's because they want Zadina or maybe Tkachuk or Quinn Hughes. Doubt anyone's moving up that high to get anyone else. Teams that are most likely to move up? Edmonton, as I stated earlier, could be looking for an NHL-ready scoring winger to pair with McDavid. Maybe Detroit or Vancouver or Phoenix have interest, but I don't know that those teams are the right trade partners for us, give that they too would want to hold on to younger assets. Does Det give us the 1st rounder they acquired from Vegas (and the #6) just to move up a couple of spots? Does Phoenix give us their #5 and Domi? I don't know. The Rangers and Isles could also be trade partners, but then you're moving down behind Chicago, and I really don't think Chicago will let Kotkaniemi fall below them.

I don't think Ottawa will take Kotkaniemi, I think they're looking at Tkachuk (or Zadina if he falls) or a D man like Hughes, Boqvist, or Bouchard. And I think Phx has so many other needs that they likely don't reach for a center either. But if you drop anywhere below 6-8, you risk losing out on both Zadina and Kotkaniemi. Detroit might take the latter, Chicago I feel almost certainly will if he's there. So if you get a trade to move down a spot or two, you're likely fine. Otherwise, you have to want the additional asset(s) coming back in the trade enough to accept the fact you might be drafting a Bouchard/Dobson/Veleno/Kupari instead...

Kotkaniemi is a real tough question to think about, and I go back and forth on this a fair bit, but the more I think about it, the more I stick with my original opinion of going with Zadina over JK. There are still some centers that you might be able to draft in the 2nd round, and given that we have 4 picks, you can take a couple of cracks at a center and hope one pans out. I'm not sure Kotkaniemi is enough of a sure thing to pass on Zadina at this point, when Zadina could be a lock in your top 6 for 8-10 years.

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Just now, Habituallity said:

Does anyone know how much time Tkachuk has spent at the Center position?

Very little. He's considered a winger, and I think we've had enough experimenting with players out of position as our centers.

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It looks like Zadina wouldn't mind that either if he was drafted by the Canadiens. The Czech forward recently revealed that he's been texting back and forth with former Montreal Canadiens' forward Tomas Plekanec. The two have never spoken before but were put in contact over the last two weeks. 

"I would really like to play on the same team as Plekanec, he would be my mentor, my babysitter, he's a special player, one of the best Czechs of the last years."

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22 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Kotkaniemi is a real tough question to think about, and I go back and forth on this a fair bit, but the more I think about it, the more I stick with my original opinion of going with Zadina over JK. There are still some centers that you might be able to draft in the 2nd round, and given that we have 4 picks, you can take a couple of cracks at a center and hope one pans out. I'm not sure Kotkaniemi is enough of a sure thing to pass on Zadina at this point, when Zadina could be a lock in your top 6 for 8-10 years.

Kind of how I feel.  

Yes, we have a plethora of quality of NHL wingers. yes, we need a top line centre but the idea of adding an NHL ready, explosive winger on an ELC for 3 years cannot be overlooked.  

I think my gut tells me you have to pick Zadina (or Svech) with that 3OV.   If you get the chance to move an asset for another 1st rounder and you manage to pick up Kotkaniemi or Valeno, great. But I dont  think you can give up the opportunity to take one of those wingers with the pick.

We'd be left with Zadina/Svech,  Drouin, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Pacioretty and possibly Hudon and Lehkonen all vying for 4 wing spots (and possibly 1 centre slot).  Thats a lot of potential trade bait there too to help us fix other roster areas. 

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2 hours ago, Born-To-Be-A-Hab said:

I wonder if a trade for Edmonton's 10th pick could be done . Then flip that pick with one of the second rounders to move up to 5th to 7th pick . Then Montreal could come away with both Zadina and Kotkaniemi or Bouchard .

intersting thought.  There's some definitely possibilities (although I dont believe MB has shown he would make that type of move).

Pacioretty to Edmonton for #10OV + Klefbom (or Nurse, edmonton picks).

Then 10OV + 2nd rounder to Vancouver.  Maybe we have to throw in another pick.  They want to stockpile young players right now. 

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3 minutes ago, Habberwacky said:

I still like doing something with NYR who have some talent Staal and a `1st for Patches and a 2nd

I think Pacioretty is worth more than a 9th overall by himself. Taking Staal would be a favor to New York, so IMO, this trade is an awful move for us.

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57 minutes ago, maas_art said:

intersting thought.  There's some definitely possibilities (although I dont believe MB has shown he would make that type of move).

Pacioretty to Edmonton for #10OV + Klefbom (or Nurse, edmonton picks).

Then 10OV + 2nd rounder to Vancouver.  Maybe we have to throw in another pick.  They want to stockpile young players right now. 

If you get to 10, then you're going to get a shot at a player like Dobson, Boqvist, Veleno, or so on... to get up to 7 would give you a shot at someone like Bouchard, Hughes, Wahlstrom, or Kotkaniemi. The question I'll ask if whether that second group of players is really head and shoulders above the first group. I definitely like that Hughes and Kotkaniemi, but I think there's enough discrepancy of opinion that it's not a guarantee they're clearly seen as better.

The other name that I'll throw out who's starting to interest me is Rasmus Kupari, another Finnish center who's got a ton of skill... good shot, good playmaker (albeit maybe not as good as JK), and maybe a better skater than JK. He's not viewed as highly, and a lot of people think Florida or Columbus would grab him if he falls to the middle of the round. But he's a guy where, if you can trade into the 10-14 range you'd likely have a good chance at getting. He needs work, but from what I've seen/read, maybe he's got an outside shot at becoming a #1 center.

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13 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

If you get to 10, then you're going to get a shot at a player like Dobson, Boqvist, Veleno, or so on... to get up to 7 would give you a shot at someone like Bouchard, Hughes, Wahlstrom, or Kotkaniemi. The question I'll ask if whether that second group of players is really head and shoulders above the first group. I definitely like that Hughes and Kotkaniemi, but I think there's enough discrepancy of opinion that it's not a guarantee they're clearly seen as better.

The other name that I'll throw out who's starting to interest me is Rasmus Kupari, another Finnish center who's got a ton of skill... good shot, good playmaker (albeit maybe not as good as JK), and maybe a better skater than JK. He's not viewed as highly, and a lot of people think Florida or Columbus would grab him if he falls to the middle of the round. But he's a guy where, if you can trade into the 10-14 range you'd likely have a good chance at getting. He needs work, but from what I've seen/read, maybe he's got an outside shot at becoming a #1 center.

I would rather  be proactive and go get the players you want . A few years ago I wanted Montreal to trade up to get Anthony Mantha  .

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