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BigTed3

2018-19 Habs Lines

329 posts in this topic

On 7/12/2018 at 1:36 PM, maas_art said:

I agree with what you're saying to a point but it doesnt look great to potential future suitors that we are a team known for signing / bringing in a bunch of guys most of whom wont get a chance.  Depth is great but if you have say 8 guys vying for the same spot, that seems excessive.

 

This is the hallmark of MB's tenure imho.  I mean people say he's made brutal moves but its not like Mike Milbury who traded away great players for crap.  MB has brought back very good players, Drouin, Weber, Domi - these are no slouches - but they seem to suit our needs less than the players he's traded away... and this happens all the time.  

I havent seen what i would consider a clear plan from our GM .. ever.  

compared to what we traded away crap it is, do you think any GM minus MB would trade weber for PK straight up, drouin for Sergachev or AG for domi, these players compared to what we lost are bad

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1 hour ago, jwlk said:

compared to what we traded away crap it is, do you think any GM minus MB would trade weber for PK straight up, drouin for Sergachev or AG for domi, these players compared to what we lost are bad

Not trying to totally defend MB but at the time of the Subban Weber Trade it was pretty equal across the league of whom won the deal a lot of GM's did think it was at least equal some even thought we got the better end. Hard to say on the Druin deal because Sergachev was still unknown how he would end up being both players had high end potential. It all depends on any teams needs at that time. AG for Domi we'll see but I agree I think most don't think the Habs won but he is younger with a lower cap hit which all ggm's look at also. So at the time each of these deals were done not all thought they were bad deals and none of the returning players are bad players. Weber's first year here was better than Subbans there. Hard to actually compare last season as Weber was hurt.

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1 hour ago, jwlk said:

compared to what we traded away crap it is, do you think any GM minus MB would trade weber for PK straight up, drouin for Sergachev or AG for domi, these players compared to what we lost are bad

Actually when the Pk for Weber trade was made many of the league's GMs were polled and it was pretty much 50/50 on who they felt won the trade, so yes, a large percentage would have made that trade.

Same with Drouin. We were giving up a very highly touted prospect for a proven NHL player.  A couple of GMs who were polled said it was a steal.


For us, they were dumb moves, no question -  but it wasnt like Cam Neely for Barry Pederson or Kordic for Courtnall. 

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i guess i just see it differently, i feel drouin will never live up to sergachev and feel drouin is overated, never liked the weber deal thought it was and still is a bad deal short term and long term, and even though AG never met his full potential here, i don't see any 25-30 goal season in domi here, i see him as a gomez type player and don't see him flourishing here with no one to pass to

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24 minutes ago, jwlk said:

i guess i just see it differently, i feel drouin will never live up to sergachev and feel drouin is overated, never liked the weber deal thought it was and still is a bad deal short term and long term, and even though AG never met his full potential here, i don't see any 25-30 goal season in domi here, i see him as a gomez type player and don't see him flourishing here with no one to pass to

I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you. The point though was that right now - 2018 - we still have decent pieces to work with. if you suddenly got a GM with a plan, I think you have 8-9 strong core pieces under 26, a good group of high end prospects in the system, and a handful of vets who could still fetch you good returns in trades.    

The trades have been really bad from a standpoint of building a cohesive team but from a standpoint of assets, we're not actually that far behind where we were. The problem is the guy who is making the deals hasnt got a clue and he's most likely going to be running those assets until they've lost what value they have left and are too old to do much with the new players in a couple of years. 

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13 hours ago, maas_art said:

Actually when the Pk for Weber trade was made many of the league's GMs were polled and it was pretty much 50/50 on who they felt won the trade, so yes, a large percentage would have made that trade.

Same with Drouin. We were giving up a very highly touted prospect for a proven NHL player.  A couple of GMs who were polled said it was a steal.


For us, they were dumb moves, no question -  but it wasnt like Cam Neely for Barry Pederson or Kordic for Courtnall. 

I'm guessing the GMs who would have made the PK/Weber deal rank about as bad as Bergevin. Ditto for the Drouin deal. And our D right now proves those GMs are idiots.

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21 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

I'm guessing the GMs who would have made the PK/Weber deal rank about as bad as Bergevin. Ditto for the Drouin deal. And our D right now proves those GMs are idiots.

lol

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11 hours ago, maas_art said:

I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you. The point though was that right now - 2018 - we still have decent pieces to work with. if you suddenly got a GM with a plan, I think you have 8-9 strong core pieces under 26, a good group of high end prospects in the system, and a handful of vets who could still fetch you good returns in trades.    

The trades have been really bad from a standpoint of building a cohesive team but from a standpoint of assets, we're not actually that far behind where we were. The problem is the guy who is making the deals hasnt got a clue and he's most likely going to be running those assets until they've lost what value they have left and are too old to do much with the new players in a couple of years. 

yes with any hope  we could see MB gone by the end of the season

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5 hours ago, jwlk said:

lol

Well a lot of people have liked Babcock who has stated how much he likes Weber and didn't even want to play Subban and while in Detroit didn't really have positive things to say about him. 

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18 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Well a lot of people have liked Babcock who has stated how much he likes Weber and didn't even want to play Subban and while in Detroit didn't really have positive things to say about him. 

Ya with the PK Weber trade, it's easy to forget how many "old-school" minds are still around the league who just get enamored with a player like Weber and frustrated with a player like PK. Due to the age difference (I'll consider the contracts a wash since Weber has a lower-hit but more downstream risk) the only way you can think Montreal won that trade is if Weber is the better player by a pretty wide-margin, and apparently that's what a lot of GMs thought.

The Drouin for Sergachev trade was quite different. At least if you just look at the trade on paper (ignoring team needs) it was fairly easy to make an argument that getting a proven young-NHLer with upside for an unproven prospect (even with a higher ceiling) was a smart risk to take.  And that trade still has a chance to look okay to good.

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Assuming Max is going to be traded before the season begins. Maybe the return will be someone that can play center on the top line. Assuming Byron and Shaw do not begin the season because of injuries.

Jonathan Drouin - (#1 Center ???) - Brendan Gallagher

Max Domi - Phillip Danault - Artturi Lehkonen

Charles Hudon - Tomas Plekanec - Nikita Scherbak

Nicolas Deslauriers - Jacob de la Rose - Joel Armia

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36 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Assuming Max is going to be traded before the season begins. Maybe the return will be someone that can play center on the top line. Assuming Byron and Shaw do not begin the season because of injuries.

Jonathan Drouin - (#1 Center ???) - Brendan Gallagher

Max Domi - Phillip Danault - Artturi Lehkonen

Charles Hudon - Tomas Plekanec - Nikita Scherbak

Nicolas Deslauriers - Jacob de la Rose - Joel Armia

It is still very early to predict who will play where... however, I think you have it reasonably accurate... Kolkaniemi may slot in there for 10 games perhaps

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Assuming Max is going to be traded before the season begins. Maybe the return will be someone that can play center on the top line. Assuming Byron and Shaw do not begin the season because of injuries.

Jonathan Drouin - (#1 Center ???) - Brendan Gallagher

Max Domi - Phillip Danault - Artturi Lehkonen

Charles Hudon - Tomas Plekanec - Nikita Scherbak

Nicolas Deslauriers - Jacob de la Rose - Joel Armia

The only way I see him bringing back a #1 Centre is if the centre in question is old.  Like Toews or something (although if Chicago wants max its because they are going all in & they arent trading us Toews).  

If though, somehow, we miraculously get a #1 centre, Id really love nothing more than to slot one of Domi or Hudon into that 2 slot.  Both have had success at centre in the past & i think both are our best choices in-house to take up that 2nd slot.  Id really like Drouin to go back to LW. 

I also believe that Armia has a higher ceiling than 4th line.  Id try:

Drouin - #1centre - Gallagher
Domi - Hudon - Scherbak
Lehkonen - Danault - Armia
DLR/Deslauriers - Plekanec - Shaw/BigMac

5 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

It is still very early to predict who will play where... however, I think you have it reasonably accurate... Kolkaniemi may slot in there for 10 games perhaps

Agreed.   I also wouldnt  be surprised at all to see him play on this roster all year. Obviously only if he's ready & Im *pretty sure* they woudlnt be foolish enough to keep him with the club unless he is (like Mete last year) but the amount of proggress JK made over the last 10 -12 months is staggering. 

There's also an outside chance that Poehling or Evans sticks with the club although i dont think either would start higher than 3rd on the roster. 

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On 7/16/2018 at 2:23 PM, maas_art said:

The only way I see him bringing back a #1 Centre is if the centre in question is old.  Like Toews or something (although if Chicago wants max its because they are going all in & they arent trading us Toews).  

If though, somehow, we miraculously get a #1 centre, Id really love nothing more than to slot one of Domi or Hudon into that 2 slot.  Both have had success at centre in the past & i think both are our best choices in-house to take up that 2nd slot.  Id really like Drouin to go back to LW. 

I also believe that Armia has a higher ceiling than 4th line.  Id try:

Drouin - #1centre - Gallagher
Domi - Hudon - Scherbak
Lehkonen - Danault - Armia
DLR/Deslauriers - Plekanec - Shaw/BigMac

Agreed.   I also wouldnt  be surprised at all to see him play on this roster all year. Obviously only if he's ready & Im *pretty sure* they woudlnt be foolish enough to keep him with the club unless he is (like Mete last year) but the amount of proggress JK made over the last 10 -12 months is staggering. 

There's also an outside chance that Poehling or Evans sticks with the club although i dont think either would start higher than 3rd on the roster. 

I prefer Rocket's lineup. And from what I've read, Poehling is headed back to studies... also, Evans will play in the AHL to start IMHO.

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9 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

I prefer Rocket's lineup. And from what I've read, Poehling is headed back to studies... also, Evans will play in the AHL to start IMHO.

Poehling has committed to one more year at St. Cloud. He will turn pro next year but I imagine he'll spend a year in the AHL. Kotkaniemi may be here before him.

Evans likely goes to the AHL, but more because of players like Plekanec, Peca, and DLR being signed and placed ahead of him on the depth chart because they have to clear waivers to go down. By all accounts, Evans was the most "NHL-ready" player at the Habs development camp, but I honestly don't think he'll get a fair crack at the line-up to start the year. They can say all they want that the best players will be on the team, but if Evans out-plays those other guys at camp, it won't be enough. He's going to have to out-shine them by a decent amount AND he's going to need someone else to look disappointing. This is why I've been arguing that signing the likes of Plekanec sets back other guys' development. If it's not Evans, it'll be Scherbak or Rychel or McCarron or DLR or so on who loses out on a spot or on ice time because Plekanec leapfrogs them on the depth chart. Zero point in that when we know the season is going to be a dead loss to begin with.

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22 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Poehling has committed to one more year at St. Cloud. He will turn pro next year but I imagine he'll spend a year in the AHL. Kotkaniemi may be here before him.

Evans likely goes to the AHL, but more because of players like Plekanec, Peca, and DLR being signed and placed ahead of him on the depth chart because they have to clear waivers to go down. By all accounts, Evans was the most "NHL-ready" player at the Habs development camp, but I honestly don't think he'll get a fair crack at the line-up to start the year. They can say all they want that the best players will be on the team, but if Evans out-plays those other guys at camp, it won't be enough. He's going to have to out-shine them by a decent amount AND he's going to need someone else to look disappointing. This is why I've been arguing that signing the likes of Plekanec sets back other guys' development. If it's not Evans, it'll be Scherbak or Rychel or McCarron or DLR or so on who loses out on a spot or on ice time because Plekanec leapfrogs them on the depth chart. Zero point in that when we know the season is going to be a dead loss to begin with.

How many games does Plekanec need to reach his milestone?

Maybe he could be used as a player-coach after that perhaps... but that probably won't open up a roster spot I guess... unless he was assigned to the AHL as such

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40 minutes ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

How many games does Plekanec need to reach his milestone?

Maybe he could be used as a player-coach after that perhaps... but that probably won't open up a roster spot I guess... unless he was assigned to the AHL as such

2 games to reach 1000 and 19 to reach 1000 as a hab. 

 

Yeah, im not sure how a player coach works in terms of roster space.  My guess is, considering that Julien loves him, he'll be on the roster every game he's available. 

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50 minutes ago, maas_art said:

2 games to reach 1000 and 19 to reach 1000 as a hab. 

 

Yeah, im not sure how a player coach works in terms of roster space.  My guess is, considering that Julien loves him, he'll be on the roster every game he's available. 

playing 15 + minutes a night with talented linemates. this team is just giving me an ulcer these days

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9 minutes ago, jeff33 said:

playing 15 + minutes a night with talented linemates. this team is just giving me an ulcer these days

Well im hoping he will be under 10 minutes a game.. i mean they have to see that as much as well all love super pleky, he's on borrowed time right now - right??  right???  

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Ryan Szporer with an interesting article here suggesting what he thinks might be our opening night roster (with some sprinkles of what he hopes will happen).

Domi - Drouin - Gallagher    - This is probably what we'll see barring a trade.  I dont mind it. I could see those 3 having good chemistry actually.

Pacioretty - Danault - Hudon  - Assuming the captain isnt traded, he'll be with Danault.   Hudon is a nice complement to that line & spent a lot of time with Patches last year.

Lehkonen - Kotkaneimi - Armia   -  I fully expect JK to get 9 games. Unless he is absolutely dominant, i am praying they send him back to Finland/Laval.  

Deslauriers - Plekanec - Peca    Tons of options for this line including DLR, BigMac, Rychel etc.   Im not too worried about our 4th line. It is what it is. 

 

Mete - Petry  Definitely our 2 best defensemen with Weber out.  Should be our only decent pair. 

Alzner - Juulsen As much as I dont want Alzner in our top 4, he actually looked decent next to Juulsen.   Only worry would be if this would hurt NJ's development?

Reilly - Benn  Lots of options here.  I want Reilly on our roster.  I have no idea if Oullette or one of the Czech guys might leap frog one of these guys. 

 

 

 

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No concerns about lack of RWers? Good players are just good players? I hope so, because I like what I've seen out of Hudon.

 

 

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Hudon is a left winger. He's also played a bit of center, but I don't think he's spent any appreciable amount of time on the RW. The RW's on this team are probably Gallagher, Armia, Shaw, and Scherbak, with Lehkonen also having some experience there.

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9 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Hudon is a left winger. He's also played a bit of center, but I don't think he's spent any appreciable amount of time on the RW. The RW's on this team are probably Gallagher, Armia, Shaw, and Scherbak, with Lehkonen also having some experience there.

Though he is a left-winger, as you say, he has played center before. That said, there are a number of left-wingers on the team as well. And barring a Pacioretty trade the weakness remains at center... so why not slot him in there.

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3 hours ago, Habs_Hockey_Nutz said:

Though he is a left-winger, as you say, he has played center before. That said, there are a number of left-wingers on the team as well. And barring a Pacioretty trade the weakness remains at center... so why not slot him in there.

It's fine to try Hudon at center. The problem comes back to the same issue, which is that all of our centers are either bottom 6 players (Danault, Plekanec, DLR, Peca, etc.) or else they're skill players but with very little experience at center and/or very little size (Drouin, Domi, Hudon, Kotkaniemi, etc.)... so either way, you're ending up with two top 6 centers who don't really have the moxie to play in any situation. Instead, you're going into the season with two guys who are going to need some amount of shielding or who just aren't capable of being in the top 6. It's fine to experiment with Hudon as your 2C if your 1C is Crosby or Matthews or Backstrom or Tavares or McDavid or Barzal or Draisaitl or Johansen or so on. It's a much bigger gamble to have Hudon as your 2C if Drouin is your 1C. Both guys are going to have the same lack of experience, the same size issues, the same need to improve their defensive games, and so on. Just creates a bit of a mess for a coach to try to win match-ups.

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15 hours ago, RyderRocks73 said:

No concerns about lack of RWers? Good players are just good players? I hope so, because I like what I've seen out of Hudon.

We have Gallagher, Scherbak, Armia, Shaw and a few players like Lehkonen and Hudon who have played RW but may be better suited to LW.    

14 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Hudon is a left winger. He's also played a bit of center, but I don't think he's spent any appreciable amount of time on the RW. The RW's on this team are probably Gallagher, Armia, Shaw, and Scherbak, with Lehkonen also having some experience there.

Hudon actually spent a lot of time at RW last year.  Per  Szporer's article i linke to above:   

"According to the team’s roster page, Charles Hudon is a left-winger, but on four of his top five lines from last season he played on the right. On two of those, he played opposite Pacioretty. On two others, he was centered by Danault, who in turn centered Pacioretty on the team’s most-common line overall."

So  Pacioretty (LW) - Danault (C) - Hudon (RW) was the team's most common line overall last year.   Now, maybe Hudon is more effective at LW (and i still would really like to try him at centre) but there's been a history (last year at least) of using him on the right. 

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