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Galchenyuk traded for Domi


BigTed3
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54 minutes ago, Flying_Lion said:

There was an article in the Gazette, can’t find the link, about how all this is now on Molson’s shoulders. This is true but he doesn’t personally own the team, does he? You’d think that there are some shareholders that could collectively challenge Molson’s authority if he can’t make the proper decisions.

Theoretically Molson answers to the board of governors. Unfortunately, our board of governors are:

Governor: 
Geoff Molson

Alternate governors
Kevin Gilmore (Canadiens COO)
Fred Steer (Canadiens CFO)
Michael Andlauer (Canadiens co-owner
Andrew Molson (Molson Coors vice-chairman)
Marc Bergevin (Canadiens GM).

 

So unless some of them step up (essentially against their bosses) I dont see the BOG doing much.   This trainwreck will continue as long as Molson lets it.


BTW,  Molson fired Gauthier after less than 2 years as GM with a better record in his final season than Bergevin (year 6) had last year.  When Gauthier was fired we had a lot of great prospects in the system too... what do we have now? 

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30 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Theoretically Molson answers to the board of governors. Unfortunately, our board of governors are:

Governor: 
Geoff Molson

Alternate governors
Kevin Gilmore (Canadiens COO)
Fred Steer (Canadiens CFO)
Michael Andlauer (Canadiens co-owner
Andrew Molson (Molson Coors vice-chairman)
Marc Bergevin (Canadiens GM).

 

So unless some of them step up (essentially against their bosses) I dont see the BOG doing much.   This trainwreck will continue as long as Molson lets it.


BTW,  Molson fired Gauthier after less than 2 years as GM with a better record in his final season than Bergevin (year 6) had last year.  When Gauthier was fired we had a lot of great prospects in the system too... what do we have now? 

We have a GM who continues to get his pocket picked.  Let’s say you had Domi and Chucky same draft year.  Do you honestly trade up to  3 from 12 without a sweetener?  No way you do.  Dylan Strome should have been kicked in on this deal.  Then, I might feel good about it.    Heck kick in a conditional 1st the next year, we’ll kick in a 2nd this year.  But one for one?  The real Bargain for Marc Bergevin in every deal is the talent he gives up for chump change.

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Theoretically Molson answers to the board of governors. Unfortunately, our board of governors are:

Governor: 
Geoff Molson

Alternate governors
Kevin Gilmore (Canadiens COO)
Fred Steer (Canadiens CFO)
Michael Andlauer (Canadiens co-owner
Andrew Molson (Molson Coors vice-chairman)
Marc Bergevin (Canadiens GM).

 

So unless some of them step up (essentially against their bosses) I dont see the BOG doing much.   This trainwreck will continue as long as Molson lets it.


BTW,  Molson fired Gauthier after less than 2 years as GM with a better record in his final season than Bergevin (year 6) had last year.  When Gauthier was fired we had a lot of great prospects in the system too... what do we have now? 

Agreed. I honestly wonder if MB might be the worst GM in the history of the organization. Yes, we all talk about Houle, but there was some recognition that Houle was in over his head and he was replaced after 5 years. What was arguably his worst trade (Roy) was forced by a trade demand, albeit Houle could have and should have turned around and fired his racist, idiotic coach.

When you look at Bergevin, he continues to make mistakes and he continues to make the same mistakes, adamant that he is right but never learning. He goes on about grit and character and attitude, but never once has he proven to us those things matter as much as skill. As you said, the prospect pool, at least in terms of immediate help, has been completely depleted. You literally look at who could make the jump who wasn't already on the roster last year and you have the likes of Brett Lernout and Charlie Lindgren (who won't get a chance in all likelihood with Niemi being re-signed) and Jeremie Gregoire and Audette and so on. No big names. No top 6 forward or top 4 D prospects who aren't already here. The Habs have depleted the prospect pool and don't have much to show for it at the NHL level for now. Maybe Ikonen or Poehling or Brook pan out, but there's a significant void between who's already here and who's to come.

Bergevin has been a failure on so many levels, and there's no sign of any change coming, because his boss seems equally unaware of any problems or simply resolute to not do anything about them. The organization has become a disaster at just about every level.

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22 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Bergevin has been a failure on so many levels, and there's no sign of any change coming, because his boss seems equally unaware of any problems or simply resolute to not do anything about them. The organization has become a disaster at just about every level.

I predict that this upcoming season, it's gonna hit Molson in the pocketbook where he'll be forced to fire his little buddy IMO.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Agreed. I honestly wonder if MB might be the worst GM in the history of the organization. Yes, we all talk about Houle, but there was some recognition that Houle was in over his head and he was replaced after 5 years. What was arguably his worst trade (Roy) was forced by a trade demand, albeit Houle could have and should have turned around and fired his racist, idiotic coach.

He has to be right at the top of the discussion.    Houle was, as you said, in way over his head but he also stood by Tremblay the way MB chose Therrien and others over his on-ice talent (Not just Roy but Turgeon had fights with Tremblay too). 

For right now I would say MB is still slightly behind Houle simply because RH took a recent stanley cup winner and dismantled it in a few short years, depleting both our on veteran and prospect pools. 

But if MB keeps making these insane moves like Subban for Weber or Domi for Galchenyuk, I think we are going to be in a very similar situation.  You cannot afford to be giving away the better player over and over again.  

43 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

I predict that this upcoming season, it's gonna hit Molson in the pocketbook where he'll be forced to fire his little buddy IMO.

Harold Ballard once famously said  "Why should I put a bunch of Cadillacs on the ice, when I can sell out with a bunch of Volkswagens"  I do think that Molson genuinely wants to win but until his pocketbook feels it, I am not sure he'll make massive changes. 

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19 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Bergevin has lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago. He's told us how fans will love Drouin and that he can be a good center. He's told us Weber will make us forget PK and that he's a better asset. He's lied to us on tons of things, so I don't believe him on any of this either. Let Domi prove us otherwise, but no benefit of the doubt.

Bergevin has also not ruled out trading our top draft pick.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

He has to be right at the top of the discussion.    Houle was, as you said, in way over his head but he also stood by Tremblay the way MB chose Therrien and others over his on-ice talent (Not just Roy but Turgeon had fights with Tremblay too). 

For right now I would say MB is still slightly behind Houle simply because RH took a recent stanley cup winner and dismantled it in a few short years, depleting both our on veteran and prospect pools. 

But if MB keeps making these insane moves like Subban for Weber or Domi for Galchenyuk, I think we are going to be in a very similar situation.  You cannot afford to be giving away the better player over and over again.

Here's a list of the trades Rejean Houle made:

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_GM/Rejean_Houle/13/1

As I noted, the worst trade was in hindsight the Patrick Roy deal, but his hand was forced by the idiocy and arrogance of his coach. The Turgeon for Corson deal was also bad, and he dumped guys like Kovalenko and Bure for little to nothing in addition to dealing a 1st for Trevor Linden. But on the flip side, the Jeff Hackett acquisition worked out well, and grabbing Souray for Malakhov was gold. I also don't think the premise behind dumping a 31-year old Mark Recchi for a young gun like Zubrus and a 2nd rounder was an awful idea. No one knew Recchi would play for so long, and Zubrus did have potential, skill, and size. Ditto for dumping a 32-year old Damphousse for a 1st rounder, 2nd rounder, and 5th rounder. The picks didn't work out because the drafting was bad, but if I recall, there were issues getting Damphousse signed to a reasonable deal and trading him for that haul at age 32 was not bad in the least.

As for Houle's drafting, we can say it was bad as well, but look at his 1998 draft and you'll find 4 guys who played over 800 games in the NHL (Markov, Ryder, Ribeiro, and Beauchemin), which is an incredible haul. Way too many misses all in all, but a few finds nonetheless. Also fair to say that in that age, teams didn't have the information they have now, both in terms of the reach of their scouting departments nor in terms of the advanced statistics to evaluate players.

Now let's come back to Bergevin. Whereas Houle appeared to be trying hard and just in over his head, Bergevin seems to be directly ignoring evidence of his mistakes and doing so in an arrogant fashion. He blatantly puts his own personal feelings ahead of the team's success, he blames his players repeatedly for his own shortcomings, and he lies to the media and fans on a regular basis. But look closer... look at the mistakes I listed above from Houle: they were mainly aging veterans whom he calculated were done and dumped for younger players and picks. Roy, Turgeon, Recchi, Damphousse, Bellows, Malakhov, etc. were guys he got rid of. But he didn't trade away too many high picks or top prospects. He didn't ruin our future, and once he was done, the team wasn't put in a situation of trying to dig out of a massive hole. In contrast, Bergevin has undoubtedly worsened the team now AND for years to come. Subban could have been a stalwart here for another 5 years. Galchenyuk, if he had been developed properly, could have been a 1C for another 5-6 years or more. Sergachev, wasted on a player who can't really play the position they tried to fill, might yet be a #1 defenceman for a decade. Pacioretty and Price's primes wasted. And all the while, Bergevin tells us we're idiots and that he's right and that it's all about grit. His convictions are just so unfounded and worse, he's going into 7 years of ruining our team, whereas Houle was gone after five. So all told, I really do feel Bergevin has done more damage than Houle did, even if they are both terrible GM's.

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4 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Whereas Houle appeared to be trying hard and just in over his head, Bergevin seems to be directly ignoring evidence of his mistakes and doing so in an arrogant fashion.

Exactly.

Houle may be a worse GM just in terms of the tools he had but Bergevin seems capable but stubborn and spiteful.

I will never forget when Houle was let go. Those tears were real - not because he was fired or because he was embarrassed. Here was a guy that was not qualified to be a GM and not surprisingly, messed up the team he loved... and he felt awful about it.   If MB was fired tomorrow Im sure he'd show little to no emotion & start blaming everyone around him. 

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4 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Exactly.

Houle may be a worse GM just in terms of the tools he had but Bergevin seems capable but stubborn and spiteful.

I will never forget when Houle was let go. Those tears were real - not because he was fired or because he was embarrassed. Here was a guy that was not qualified to be a GM and not surprisingly, messed up the team he loved... and he felt awful about it.   If MB was fired tomorrow Im sure he'd show little to no emotion & start blaming everyone around him. 

Yeah, if Bergevin were fired, I think we'd here a recap of all his many many excuses from the past 7 years...

"People think it's easy to be a GM, but it's hard. I took over a team that was near the bottom of the league and already within one year we were near the top and competitive. But it was a roster that didn't have a true #1 center, and it's hard, maybe impossible, to find one of those guys if you don't draft them yourself. We thought maybe Alex had the tools to be one, but sometimes a player just doesn't put in the work to fill the role you project for him. As a GM, you can only put the players you have in place, but at some point, those guys have to make the plays on the ice. We had years where Carey played well and Shea played well and Max played well, but if your top guys are hurt or struggle, what can you do? We tried hard, We put guys in place who wanted to win, who brought the energy and the work ethic and the right attitude, but it's a process, and you need time to find the right group to gel."

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11 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Okay. Don't base your perception of Karlsson on 1 season.

Do you think that because Karlsson busted out in 2017-2018, Max Domi will bust out with Montreal? I don't really see how picking Karlsson and using him as example has anything to do with the Domi/Galchenyuk trade and what it means for Montreal moving forward.

Your right, I don't think he  will bust out just because Karlsson did.  My whole point is don't just justify the trade because Galchenyk has scored more goals then Domi has in the last three seasons. Domi is only a minus 13 since 2015, Galchenyk is minus 44 over the same time period and playing  on a much better team over that period.

5 on 5 since 2015, Arizona GF 406, GA 473, 5 on 5 Habs since 2015, GF 431 GA 439,  I dare say if Galchenyk had been playing with  Arizona, he would be in the minus 60 range maybe even worse and Domi would be a plus player. I know people dont put much stock in +- but when it is such a ridiculousy high number for one player on the team, then where there is smoke there is fire.

People keep making fun of Domi for scoring 4 empty net goals, thats becuase the team was not afraid to use him when they had the lead, unlike Galchenyk.

So yes I am fine with the trade, but not happy that we did not go after a Center or Deeman, even if they had to give up Galchenyk and some picks to do that they should have.

I truly believe we will be better of with Domi in the long run. But its still not the answer to what ails this team, that is deeman who can skate and make a good first pass and centerman who can also. 

 

  

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6 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

Your right, I don't think he  will bust out just because Karlsson did.  My whole point is don't just justify the trade because Galchenyk has scored more goals then Domi has in the last three seasons. Domi is only a minus 13 since 2015, Galchenyk is minus 44 over the same time period and playing  on a much better team over that period.

5 on 5 since 2015, Arizona GF 406, GA 473, 5 on 5 Habs since 2015, GF 431 GA 439,  I dare say if Galchenyk had been playing with  Arizona, he would be in the minus 60 range maybe even worse and Domi would be a plus player. I know people dont put much stock in +- but when it is such a ridiculousy high number for one player on the team, then where there is smoke there is fire.

People keep making fun of Domi for scoring 4 empty net goals, thats becuase the team was not afraid to use him when they had the lead, unlike Galchenyk.

So yes I am fine with the trade, but not happy that we did not go after a Center or Deeman, even if they had to give up Galchenyk and some picks to do that they should have.

I truly believe we will be better of with Domi in the long run. But its still not the answer to what ails this team, that is deeman who can skate and make a good first pass and centerman who can also. 

 

  

Good points... and I think a lot of people Like the idea getting Domi too but I still think we should have used Chucky to get what we really needed... UNLESS we are full out rebuilding... then I'm actually fine with this trade. But that means Pacioretty, Weber and Price are moved too. 

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27 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

Your right, I don't think he  will bust out just because Karlsson did.  My whole point is don't just justify the trade because Galchenyk has scored more goals then Domi has in the last three seasons. Domi is only a minus 13 since 2015, Galchenyk is minus 44 over the same time period and playing  on a much better team over that period.

5 on 5 since 2015, Arizona GF 406, GA 473, 5 on 5 Habs since 2015, GF 431 GA 439,  I dare say if Galchenyk had been playing with  Arizona, he would be in the minus 60 range maybe even worse and Domi would be a plus player. I know people dont put much stock in +- but when it is such a ridiculousy high number for one player on the team, then where there is smoke there is fire.

People keep making fun of Domi for scoring 4 empty net goals, thats becuase the team was not afraid to use him when they had the lead, unlike Galchenyk.

So yes I am fine with the trade, but not happy that we did not go after a Center or Deeman, even if they had to give up Galchenyk and some picks to do that they should have.

I truly believe we will be better of with Domi in the long run. But its still not the answer to what ails this team, that is deeman who can skate and make a good first pass and centerman who can also. 

 

  

I guess that makes Domi a great fit for all those late leads we've been accustomed to not having!

18 minutes ago, habsisme said:

Good points... and I think a lot of people Like the idea getting Domi too but I still think we should have used Chucky to get what we really needed... UNLESS we are full out rebuilding... then I'm actually fine with this trade. But that means Pacioretty, Weber and Price are moved too. 

... I agree with both you guys that the issue is not Domi, just as it wasn't Weber or Drouin. The issue is a bad trade that doesn't fix any of our actual needs.

 

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26 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

... I agree with both you guys that the issue is not Domi, just as it wasn't Weber or Drouin. The issue is a bad trade that doesn't fix any of our actual needs.

Bingo. Ive got no problem with adding Domi.  If we had send 3ov + 2nd rounder for 5th ov  + Domi  Id be fine with it.   But Domi for Gachenyuk = a serious downgrade in value and talent right now.  Doesnt mean Max wont excel and AG wont bust, it simply means that at this moment, Bergevin got 75¢ on the dollar for his player.  I even could have lived with Galchenyuk for Domi if Arizona had included a top prospect/young player or their 5th overall.  

I said at the time I would have traded any defensman on our roster not named PK for Weber. The problem wasnt adding Weber the problem was losing PK to do it & not getting any other assets.   
 

And I like Drouin. Happy to have him as a Hab. But trading away our ONLY viable top 4 LHD to get him made absolutely zero sense.   Bergevin made this big deal about Domi getting a 2 year deal and still being RFA but last summer we did the exact opposite thing with Drouin and Sergachev.


Its just once again a massive bomb of ineptitude. No plan. No asset management. No consistency and no vision. 

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2 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

How Bergevin remains employed is truly mind boggling!

Either he has something he holds over Molson, or Molson himself is totally incompetent.

Either way, we are not even close to winning the Cup, not with these two clowns in charge. It's like the patients are running the asylum.

What he has over Molson is a contract extension. One that Molson shouldn't have handed out. And now Molson probably doesn't want to pay him to do nothing. Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll get fired at the end of the upcoming season and Molson will be able to stomach the lost money.

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12 hours ago, caperns61 said:

Your right, I don't think he  will bust out just because Karlsson did.  My whole point is don't just justify the trade because Galchenyk has scored more goals then Domi has in the last three seasons. Domi is only a minus 13 since 2015, Galchenyk is minus 44 over the same time period and playing  on a much better team over that period.

5 on 5 since 2015, Arizona GF 406, GA 473, 5 on 5 Habs since 2015, GF 431 GA 439,  I dare say if Galchenyk had been playing with  Arizona, he would be in the minus 60 range maybe even worse and Domi would be a plus player. I know people dont put much stock in +- but when it is such a ridiculousy high number for one player on the team, then where there is smoke there is fire.

People keep making fun of Domi for scoring 4 empty net goals, thats becuase the team was not afraid to use him when they had the lead, unlike Galchenyk.

So yes I am fine with the trade, but not happy that we did not go after a Center or Deeman, even if they had to give up Galchenyk and some picks to do that they should have.

I truly believe we will be better of with Domi in the long run. But its still not the answer to what ails this team, that is deeman who can skate and make a good first pass and centerman who can also. 

I can agree to the point not to justify or "hate on" a trade based of one thing. However, I do believe that there should be concern that we are giving up a player who scores more goals for one who scores less goals at the same position. The team isn't good at scoring goals. I don't understand why we would look to make things worse.

I have no idea if we'll be better or worse in the future because of this trade. Domi appears to have some play-making ability to his game... I suspect we'll perform worse.

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5 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

What he has over Molson is a contract extension. One that Molson shouldn't have handed out. And now Molson probably doesn't want to pay him to do nothing. Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll get fired at the end of the upcoming season and Molson will be able to stomach the lost money.

Relieve Bergevin of his GM duties and assign him as a scout to North Korea or Somalia.

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6 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

What he has over Molson is a contract extension. One that Molson shouldn't have handed out. And now Molson probably doesn't want to pay him to do nothing. Maybe, if we're lucky, he'll get fired at the end of the upcoming season and Molson will be able to stomach the lost money.

Like someone mentioned in another post, at least demote the guy(MB) to another position so he can do no further damage.

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20 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Like someone mentioned in another post, at least demote the guy(MB) to another position so he can do no further damage.

Yeah, the issue has got to be that Molson doesn't want to pay the money... You can "reassign" Bergevin and give him a new position, sure... but then you have to pay someone else to come in and do his job. Clearly Molson is not willing to commit to paying that much cash to two people at this point in time.

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22 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, the issue has got to be that Molson doesn't want to pay the money... You can "reassign" Bergevin and give him a new position, sure... but then you have to pay someone else to come in and do his job. Clearly Molson is not willing to commit to paying that much cash to two people at this point in time.

I find that hard to believe. I dont think Molson would balk at paying another GM.  I think he's drank the kool aid. I think he (Molson) genuinely believes Bergevin knows what he is doing.  Its pretty crazy. 

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