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Galchenyuk traded for Domi


BigTed3
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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

I find that hard to believe. I dont think Molson would balk at paying another GM.  I think he's drank the kool aid. I think he (Molson) genuinely believes Bergevin knows what he is doing.  Its pretty crazy. 

He's got Therrien and Julien both on the payroll on expensive deals. He's got Bergevin on a long-term extension. I'm not sure if they're still paying any of the other ex-assistants or so on as well, and Bergevin really hired a lot of people when he started. So I don't doubt the management aspect of the payroll has increased drastically in size over the past few years. If you fire Bergevin, the odds are pretty high that the new GM wants a new coach and maybe a new assistant GM and head of scouting or so on, you just never know... so it's not just one guy extra you're paying, it could be 3 or 4 or 8 extra guys on the payroll on top of the ones you're already paying extra to begin with. It might not be Molson's primary concern, but it's got to be a factor in his thinking. I have no doubt this is a business to him above all else.

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23 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

He's got Therrien and Julien both on the payroll on expensive deals. He's got Bergevin on a long-term extension. I'm not sure if they're still paying any of the other ex-assistants or so on as well, and Bergevin really hired a lot of people when he started. So I don't doubt the management aspect of the payroll has increased drastically in size over the past few years. If you fire Bergevin, the odds are pretty high that the new GM wants a new coach and maybe a new assistant GM and head of scouting or so on, you just never know... so it's not just one guy extra you're paying, it could be 3 or 4 or 8 extra guys on the payroll on top of the ones you're already paying extra to begin with. It might not be Molson's primary concern, but it's got to be a factor in his thinking. I have no doubt this is a business to him above all else.

And it’s a business that’s beginning to lose its value. Can’t count the amount of times I’ve read/heard fans remark on how hard it is to continue consuming the product as much as in years past. Do we still fill the Bell Center? I’m fairly certain resale ticket values have decreased, at least. All of this affects the bottom line. 

Im not saying the organization is hurting for money but, as noted above, there is already a lot of wasted expense that smart business sense might suggest it’s best to wait out. 

Is it true GM forced MB’s hand with respect to Subban’s contract? And then he stood by him when he took on an even heavier contract in a trade which has pretty much backfired. If so, GM might be very much in a position where he doesn’t have the wiggle room to back any more expenses short of spending to the cap.

There are a lot of expensive eggs in the basket. 

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14 minutes ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

its an interesting read. I think Hickey reaches in a few places and I dont agree with all of his logic but i can see why there was potentially more friction than what we saw.  

That said, i still dont think we got close to fair value for him.  Lets hope Domi exceeds expectations. 

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33 minutes ago, maas_art said:

its an interesting read. I think Hickey reaches in a few places and I dont agree with all of his logic but i can see why there was potentially more friction than what we saw.  

That said, i still dont think we got close to fair value for him.  Lets hope Domi exceeds expectations. 

Domi is a great player if we use him right. He could be a great playmaker 

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2 minutes ago, jwlk said:

Domi is a great player if we use him right. He could be a great playmaker 

Not disagreeing with that at all but right now it looks like we downgraded fairly substantially.  Im hoping big-time that he proves is rookie season was the norm, not the exception. 

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2 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

Didn't read this article but there are a number of reports surfacing about Galchenyuk's father. I think they came mainly from Francois Gagnon, but basically saying AG's father would treat him harshly and criticize everything he did and text him between periods to tell him what he did wrong... definitely a blow for a young man's confidence. The dad seems like every one of those awful hockey parents who make playing the game less fun. Too bad, but also doesn't excuse the Habs from how they too treated AG badly.

1 hour ago, jwlk said:

 

Domi is a great player if we use him right. He could be a great playmaker 

Sure. But this team can't score goals and just traded a past 30-goal scorer for a guy who had 5 non-empty net goals last year. Domi's going to have a massive turnaround to replace what we lost. It doesn't help us much to have Domi and Drouin and Lehkonen and Danault and so on and have everyone making great passes but no one who can actually put the puck in the net. At some point, you need goal scorers, and it's been an issue for us for a few years. To boot, we still have zero top 6 centers, and all of Bergevin's major trades, with assets he could have used to get a 1C, have resulted in us getting wingers and an older defenceman. Imagine you were planning on having a barbecue and you had hamburger buns but no beef patties, so you go to the store and come home with more hamburger buns but no beef. All fine and dandy to know that the bun is needed to make a burger, but if it's the beef you're missing, sticking one bun inside another isn't going to make it right. Bergevin gets an F for this trade, not because Domi is bad by any means, but because he completely missed the point of what the Habs need: goals and offensive centers. He ended up with neither and in fact gave up more of the first than he got back.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Didn't read this article but there are a number of reports surfacing about Galchenyuk's father. I think they came mainly from Francois Gagnon, but basically saying AG's father would treat him harshly and criticize everything he did and text him between periods to tell him what he did wrong... definitely a blow for a young man's confidence. The dad seems like every one of those awful hockey parents who make playing the game less fun. Too bad, but also doesn't excuse the Habs from how they too treated AG badly.

Sure. But this team can't score goals and just traded a past 30-goal scorer for a guy who had 5 non-empty net goals last year. Domi's going to have a massive turnaround to replace what we lost. It doesn't help us much to have Domi and Drouin and Lehkonen and Danault and so on and have everyone making great passes but no one who can actually put the puck in the net. At some point, you need goal scorers, and it's been an issue for us for a few years. To boot, we still have zero top 6 centers, and all of Bergevin's major trades, with assets he could have used to get a 1C, have resulted in us getting wingers and an older defenceman. Imagine you were planning on having a barbecue and you had hamburger buns but no beef patties, so you go to the store and come home with more hamburger buns but no beef. All fine and dandy to know that the bun is needed to make a burger, but if it's the beef you're missing, sticking one bun inside another isn't going to make it right. Bergevin gets an F for this trade, not because Domi is bad by any means, but because he completely missed the point of what the Habs need: goals and offensive centers. He ended up with neither and in fact gave up more of the first than he got back.

 

 

I don't like the trade. That said -31 no matter how many goals you score if the other team scores more while you're on the ice you will lose.

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22 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I guess that makes Domi a great fit for all those late leads we've been accustomed to not having!

 

Quite the shot from a Mod :) . I can tell you this we will be far better of without Galchenyk. We will not have to worry everytime he is on the ice 5 on 5 wondering what he is doing in the neutral or defensive zone. Scratching head in wonderment while he looks for a player to cover.. I hope Arizona is better next season, if not I could season Galchenyk setting new standards for plus minus in a season :)

Player for player I like Domi, I am not just looking at what they have done, but what they will bring going forward.  And we can look at this after next season if you wish :)

 

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What We Learned: Canadiens continue to make themselves worse for no apparent reason

https://sports.yahoo.com/learned-canadiens-continue-make-worse-no-apparent-reason-142705515.html

 

The Alex Galchenyuk trade was a long time coming, that’s true.

But if you saw the immediate assessment from pretty much everyone on Friday night, you fully understand that everyone sees this as another big L for the Montreal Canadiens.

The question to be asked of any trade is, “What’s the point?” and if you’re Marc Bergevin, what answers could you possibly begin to offer that make sense? Galchenyuk was a natural talent who was nearly a point-a-game player early in 2016-17, when he was already coming off a 30-goal season as an age-21 center, before a bad knee injury seemed to set him back. That was all the Habs needed to inexplicably shuffle him away from the middle of the ice forever, despite the fact that they desperately needed someone — anyone — who could play that position in a lost season when they had all the time in the world to experiment.

Instead, his most frequent linemates this season were Jonathan Drouin, a good player, and Artturi Lehkonen (not so much). Galchenyuk still ended up as the team’s second-leading scorer who was also third in goals despite playing just 16 minutes and change a night somehow.

Again, it was clear the Habs wanted little, if anything, to do with him but if the plan was seemingly always to trade him, the way they handled him this season was baffling. If you’re trying to get someone to buy high on a guy you don’t really value that much, you have to put him in more of a position to succeed, especially if you’re trying to sell people on the fact that he’s a competent center. Instead, Bergevin and by extension Claude Julien spent much of the season more or less saying, “I know this guy isn’t ready to be an NHL center after that knee injury 18 months ago,” and even if that were true and you had your heart set on shipping him out this summer, that’s not how you handle it.

The return for Galchenyuk, who will absolutely be used as a center in Arizona, was left winger Max Domi. You’ll notice that, in the Canadiens’ pursuit of a legit No. 2 center, they seem to have traded one away for a guy who is decidedly not a center at all, which is a weird decision. Moreover, while Domi and Galchenyuk have identical career points-per-game numbers, Domi has also played nearly 200 fewer games in his career.

Ah, well, Domi debuted in 2015-16, versus the lockout-shortened 2012-13 campaign for Galchenyuk. But here’s the thing: their birthdays are separated by fewer than 13 months. It took Domi longer to get himself to Galchenyuk’s level, and while their games are very different — Domi is more of high-skill grinder set-up man-type player — the amount of quality they bring to their respective teams should be a major point of concern.

After all, if Bergervin’s media availability about the trade referenced “energy” and “intangibles” more than once, with an ask for doubters to watch highlights on YouTube, that should be telling. That in addition to the acknowledgement that this guy is, of course, definitely not a center. You can find some really great goals scored by, like, Fernando Pisani or Alex Tuch. These aren’t the kinds of guys you trade Galchenyuks for.

Domi wasn’t exactly running with the biggest of the big dogs in Arizona (he mostly played with Christian Dvorak and Clayton Keller), but he still finished 17th in primary assists per 60 among players with at least 500 minutes at full strength this year. In the same neighborhood as Jaden Schwartz and Evgeni Malkin. Nothing to sneeze at. The question is, do they put him on Drouin’s top line immediately? If not, who else can he pass the puck to that will be able to convert at the same rate as a Keller?

No one is saying Domi is a bad player — though his worse-than-Zac-Rinaldo underlying numbers on a crap Arizona team certainly don’t say he’s a good one either — but the Canadiens don’t seem to have acquired the best player in the deal, either. And in fact, they’ve moved on from a player that theoretically could help at a position of need (even if they were reticent to try him there) for one that definitively does not help there.

Sure, he’s 12-and-a-half months younger, and came with an advantageous contract situation — the Habs immediately signed Domi to a two-year extension worth $3.15 million against the cap, after which he’ll still be an RFA due to his wholesale lack of service time — but the cap savings on this deal is only about $1.75 million, and it’s not like Montreal is right up against the ceiling or anything anyway. They have to re-sign like four guys and will have $21 million or so in cap space right now, so that’s probably an indicator that the GM is going on safari with some big game in mind.

 

Maybe, if you’re being charitable to Bergevin, you argue that’s $1.75 million more that can go to a big signing this summer that’s going to steer this team out of the skid. But can you honestly trust Bergevin to make such a signing? Short of John Tavares, who’s he going to acquire that makes the kind of impact Montreal needs such a player to make? The decision-making on both the UFA and trade markets exhibited by this particular group of executives has been beyond baffling for years, and it’s not about to turn around just because Bergevin may or may not have an in with Tavares’s agent.

But it once again circles back to what a guy provides, y’know? Domi is probably at a maxed-out value (pardon the pun) because it’s hard to see him staying an elite set-up man for too long; his personal all-situations shooting percentage was just six this year, well below his previous career average, but his teammates shot a whopping 11.6 percent with him on the ice. Maybe you chalk that up to his elite set-up skills, but also, there probably aren’t too many guys who can reasonably support an 11-plus teammate shooting percentage long-term. Especially with a low-talent group like the Coyotes and Canadiens both have. Most of the guys with on-ice shooting percentages of 9-plus over the past three seasons have names like Matthews, McDavid, Perry, and Pastrnak; can we really consider Domi in that group?

Unlike the Habs, Arizona actually put Domi in a position to succeed, and while they probably weren’t shopping him, one imagines that when Bergevin called, John Chayka felt it was one of those “we’re always listening but they’d have to bowl me over” offers.

Apologists will say that the jury is out until they’ve played the full 82 in 2018-19, or maybe even longer. But when the hockey world — even the national media guys who don’t usually put the boots to teams over this kind of thing — is collectively laughing up its sleeve at what seems to be another lost trade for the Canadiens, you really have to wonder.

Three summers in a row, Montreal has traded out at least one name-brand player. Subban, Sergachev, and now Galchenyuk. The return has been Weber, Drouin, and now Domi. Is that a team that’s improving? Is it even a team that seems to have any kind of direction?

The only thing Bergevin should be happy about these days is that he’s not Pierre Dorion.

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46 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

Quite the shot from a Mod :) . I can tell you this we will be far better of without Galchenyk. We will not have to worry everytime he is on the ice 5 on 5 wondering what he is doing in the neutral or defensive zone. Scratching head in wonderment while he looks for a player to cover.. I hope Arizona is better next season, if not I could season Galchenyk setting new standards for plus minus in a season :)

Player for player I like Domi, I am not just looking at what they have done, but what they will bring going forward.  And we can look at this after next season if you wish :)

 

Not a shot at you by any means, just a shot at the fact the Habs couldn't generate a lead to have to protect last year...

We'll see. I think it's harder to replace Galchenyuk's goals than it is to find guys who can play defence. Again, not to say that Domi can't be useful, just not as great a fit for what we need here unless significant other line-up changes are made. Bergevin needs to find centers before anything else.

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8 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Yeah, the issue has got to be that Molson doesn't want to pay the money... You can "reassign" Bergevin and give him a new position, sure... but then you have to pay someone else to come in and do his job. Clearly Molson is not willing to commit to paying that much cash to two people at this point in time.

Molson has plenty of money left over from last year's salary cap.

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5 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

You just know things have gotten petty when empty net goals have become a distraction.

There were even questions about why he wasn’t on the ice at the end of close games. Given his defensive shortcomings, this should have been a no-brainer, but the Galchenyuk clan saw a conspiracy that deprived Alex of opportunities to score empty-net goals. When Galchenyuk and Max Pacioretty each scored 30 goals in the 2015-16 season, Pacioretty scored four empty-net goals while Galchenyuk had none.

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Didn't read this article but there are a number of reports surfacing about Galchenyuk's father. I think they came mainly from Francois Gagnon, but basically saying AG's father would treat him harshly and criticize everything he did and text him between periods to tell him what he did wrong... definitely a blow for a young man's confidence. The dad seems like every one of those awful hockey parents who make playing the game less fun. Too bad, but also doesn't excuse the Habs from how they too treated AG badly.

It's an interesting read, especially the part about Galchenyuk firing his agent(s) when Larionov didn't side with him after he was benched by Therrien. Additionally, Mathias Brunet from La Presse claims that Galchenyuk's personal issues were well known around the league and that Max Domi was the best offer after they shopped AG27 for over a year (link). Aparrently, the Devils offered Adam Henrique straight up last winter, which we declined. Then there are the rumors about Galchenyuk reaching out to the NHL substance abuse program on two different occasions... And after MB, MT and CJ all went the extra mile to tell the hockey world that their former #3OA pick was not good enough to play center in the NHL, it's probably not too far fetched that Max Domi was indeed the best offer. Impeccable asset management once again, MB always finds a way to sell low :rolleyes:

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14 hours ago, caperns61 said:

Quite the shot from a Mod :) . I can tell you this we will be far better of without Galchenyk. We will not have to worry everytime he is on the ice 5 on 5 wondering what he is doing in the neutral or defensive zone. Scratching head in wonderment while he looks for a player to cover.. I hope Arizona is better next season, if not I could season Galchenyk setting new standards for plus minus in a season :)

Player for player I like Domi, I am not just looking at what they have done, but what they will bring going forward.  And we can look at this after next season if you wish :)

 

If we're particularly concerned about defence, why did we trade for Drouin and have him play 1C?  Why did we give up Sergachev?  Why did we put up with Desharnais for so long over Lars Eller who I'd much prefer over Domi.  And if we had to make that trade, why didn't we trade Drouin (who has fewer goals, points AND lower FO%) instead of Galchenyuk for Domi?

On the offence side of things it's not just that Domi score only 5 non-empy netted goals.  It's also the fact that he never was able to reproduce his 50 point season.  Yet nobody is mentioning that, but they certainly do mention that Galchenyuk hasn't had another 30 goal reason.  Seriously, I'm scratching my head over how grit and character makes up for Domi's shortcomings.  Why did we get him?  Because he's another lightweight who's willing do drop gloves?  Don't we have Andrew Shaw (on a massive contract) for just that?

Bottom is, at least right now it appears we got a worse player who addressed NONE of our needs and will be a playmaker to nobody.

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9 hours ago, ChiLla said:

It's an interesting read, especially the part about Galchenyuk firing his agent(s) when Larionov didn't side with him after he was benched by Therrien. Additionally, Mathias Brunet from La Presse claims that Galchenyuk's personal issues were well known around the league and that Max Domi was the best offer after they shopped AG27 for over a year (link). Aparrently, the Devils offered Adam Henrique straight up last winter, which we declined. Then there are the rumors about Galchenyuk reaching out to the NHL substance abuse program on two different occasions... And after MB, MT and CJ all went the extra mile to tell the hockey world that their former #3OA pick was not good enough to play center in the NHL, it's probably not too far fetched that Max Domi was indeed the best offer. Impeccable asset management once again, MB always finds a way to sell low :rolleyes:

Yeah its (bolded part) tough to say but I wouldnt doubt it.  Publicly MB has thrown Galchenyuk under the bus so many times he has tire marks.  I can only imagine what he's said privately to other GMs about him.  Talk about horrendous asset management. 

As others have said, if you absolutely had to trade him, why not let him play the last 20 game at centre last season? We were done for the year anyway.  Put the two best scorers on his wings.  You dont think that would have upped his value?   But no, keep burying him, keep badmouthing him and saying he isnt this or isnt good enough to be that.  Then trade him.  Ridiculous. 

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1 hour ago, Disillusioned1 said:

If we're particularly concerned about defence, why did we trade for Drouin and have him play 1C?  Why did we give up Sergachev?  Why did we put up with Desharnais for so long over Lars Eller who I'd much prefer over Domi.  And if we had to make that trade, why didn't we trade Drouin (who has fewer goals, points AND lower FO%) instead of Galchenyuk for Domi?

On the offence side of things it's not just that Domi score only 5 non-empy netted goals.  It's also the fact that he never was able to reproduce his 50 point season.  Yet nobody is mentioning that, but they certainly do mention that Galchenyuk hasn't had another 30 goal reason.  Seriously, I'm scratching my head over how grit and character makes up for Domi's shortcomings.  Why did we get him?  Because he's another lightweight who's willing do drop gloves?  Don't we have Andrew Shaw (on a massive contract) for just that?

Bottom is, at least right now it appears we got a worse player who addressed NONE of our needs and will be a playmaker to nobody.

I think Shaw has had too many concussions to continue to be partaking in fights.

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2 hours ago, maas_art said:

Yeah its (bolded part) tough to say but I wouldnt doubt it.  Publicly MB has thrown Galchenyuk under the bus so many times he has tire marks.  I can only imagine what he's said privately to other GMs about him.  Talk about horrendous asset management. 

As others have said, if you absolutely had to trade him, why not let him play the last 20 game at centre last season? We were done for the year anyway.  Put the two best scorers on his wings.  You dont think that would have upped his value?   But no, keep burying him, keep badmouthing him and saying he isnt this or isnt good enough to be that.  Then trade him.  Ridiculous. 

Because, as usual, as we're all nauseatingly familiar with, the Montreal Canadiens have never traded away a good player who was a good person. Magically, anyone who leaves the organization is a dirtbag who chooses not to play well. Every team pumps up its new arrivals, of course. But it's a uniquely peculiar Montreal institution for interesting, questionably sourced stories—often originating from the bastion of accuracy and independence from institutional commingling and bias, the Francophone hockey press—to show up and help sell it by making the organization look like beleaguered victims in the matter. None of this is changing, though, so whatever.

Domi is a worse player than Galchenyuk. I don't wish ill on the kid but the team is worse off for the trade and I don't see the point in pretending that it might work out wonderfully. All of this "tougher to play against" stuff is of course garbage, as it always is. The hows and whys of not choosing to allow yourself to be deceived by sample sizes and event magnitude are readily available these days. Anyone who chooses to apply the kind of straightforward, day-to-day observations and choices people make by observing simple statistical methods and probability to hockey can stop pretending that this game is somehow more difficult to quantify than medicine or advanced materials engineering. Then, they're empowered to stop being shocked when these kind of players deliver nothing consequential. For the rest, pardon if some of us don't share your surprise. It'll be interesting to see what the excuses are this time. Too many miles on Price? Some pesky lingering talent on the team tragically keeping all that character from soaring majestically? I don't really care anymore. But luckily neither does the front office of the Montreal Canadiens.

This isn't even an innovative way to waste time and screw up hockey operations. Say what you will about Toronto, Edmonton, or some others, but they're at least doing stupid things in a new way for the most part. Speaking of the Oilers: remember the Oilers from ten years ago? They're back! In Hab form. This is a bad team which is also too old. That's a recipe for spinning wheels. There is no "retool" for this anymore. There is no surgical rebuild. We are two seasons overdue for a serious, no-nonsense rebuild. This move is not what a smart front office does in this situation. Based on everything coming out of the organization recently, it will be at least one (if not two!) more seasons until it starts noticing it. Not acting on it, but noticing it. And it will take a minimum of 4 to 6 seasons from that point to get somewhere.

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