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Rate Bergevin's Work Over The Past Year


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Rate Bergevin's Moves Over The Past Year  

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  1. 1. Grade His Moves Since Oct 2017



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5 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Zadina would indeed have been the instant hit, but having watched every clip I could find of Kotkanieimi at 17/18 playing against men ... he has the potential to be the top line center we've lacked since pre-Koivu.

 

Yeah I'm happy with Kotkaniemi. I think he's a really strong prospect and it wasn't a big reach to take him over Zadina. If it were me drafting I probably would have just taken Zadina instead but I don't think I can fault them for taking Kotkaniemi. 29P in the Finnish league at 17 years old is really impressive and if Kotkaniemi ends up being 90% as talented as Zadina while playing a more possession driving and playmaking game at center we'll be pretty happy. 

It's a gamble and we'll see if it pays off but I have a hard time second-guessing the decision. Kotkaniemi is an excellent prospect and he's not another Lars Eller. Kotkaniemi scored as much at age 17 as Eller did at 20. 

 

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9 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Zadina would indeed have been the instant hit, but having watched every clip I could find of Kotkanieimi at 17/18 playing against men ... he has the potential to be the top line center we've lacked since pre-Koivu.

 

 

hey, fingers crossed.  Like I said, that part of my objection is not based on a whole lot of empirical data. I mean until they have both been in the NHL for a reasonable amount of time and we can compare data its really nothing more than my opinion based on last years WJC and not much else.

zadina may be a bust, and even if hes a stud, we still cant compare until JK has had a chance to put up 

I loved koivu, if he is koivu 2.0 Ill be a big fan.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

As the roster stands right now (i.e. barring trades), these are the forwards who are locks to make the Habs:

Pacioretty, Gallagher, Hudon, Lehkonen, Domi, Danault, Plekanec, Drouin, Armia, Shaw, Byron (and yes, the last two will start on IR but they'll be back sooner rather than later once the season starts). That's already 11 guys.

MB has stated that Deslauriers and Peca were signed to play on the NHL roster, not the AHL. So that's 13.

So even if the Habs decide to go 14 forwards, that means there's 1 spot left for Scherbak, McCarron, Rychel,  DLR, Chaput, Froese, Agostino, Audette, Evans, etc. If they go 8 D, then there are no leftover spots. Of the guys on the fringe, all of Deslauriers, Peca, Scherbak, Mac, Rychel, and DLR need to go through waivers this year. Evans does not, but a lot of people in the media felt Evans was the most NHL-ready prospect we had and that he looked capable of making the team out of camp.

So let's draw it up. The potential line-up right now will look something along the lines of

Pacioretty-Danault-Lehkonen

Domi-Drouin-Gallagher

Hudon-Plekanec-Armia

Deslauriers-Peca-???

and that's with Shaw and Byron out.

Zero chance that Scherbak, Rychel, McCarron, and Evans all make it into the line-up. Pretty decent chance 3 of them are either cut and exposed to waivers or sitting in the press-box most nights.

So you can say Plekanec isn't stealing a roster spot, but he is. The Habs are not going to cut Plekanec. They're not going to stick him in the press box for 40 games. It just isn't going to happen. Even if a bunch of rookies outplay him in camp, the rookies are battling with each other for the 12th and 13th spots to start the year, not Plekanec and maybe not even Peca or Deslauriers. I'd rather see DLR over Plekanec and give experience in the upcoming lost season to a guy who could be a 3rd/4th line center here for the next 5 years. I'd rather plug in Evans and see if we have a diamond in the rough who could emerge as a scoring threat in the bottom 6 and be a contributor here long-term. I'd rather Scherbak get more ice time instead of languishing on the 4th line for long stretches of games like Galchenyuk and Hudon did.

If you're the Leafs or the Lightning or the Sharks or Pens, then I absolutely get having a veteran like Plekanec on your 4th line to make your Cup run. We're going to be a bottom-feeder and there's simply very little value to giving big minutes to a 35-year old who isn't going to be a contributor past another season or two. It's akin to playing Murray and Bouillon ahead of Beaulieu and Pateryn and Tinordi. He's not making you any better in the short-term in any meaningful way and he's hurting the development of younger guys. And sure, those young guys might turn into nothing, but then at least you know sooner and you're not playing an Evans or DLR in tough minutes in a season that does mean something. Zero foresight here in signing Plekanec IMO.

You make fair points Ted but here's my thinking:

Mb is going to move some of those guys.  Either before training camp, or more likely during.  Now, some of the "moves" may simply be dropping them to Laval and hoping they arent picked up on waivers (which is poor asset management) but what's new with this group?

I believe that Pacioretty will be traded.  Its entirely possible we get a roster player back but i wouldnt be surprised to see him gone for a combination of picks & not-yet-ready players and/or, defensemen.  I think its *possible* a guy like Byron, Shaw (even though they are on the IR) or some others are traded for more prospects or picks but no matter how you slice it you have way too many depth forwards.

So i totally get your thought process. Plekanec is a fan favourite, he's a great guy and I could see him ending up on the coaching staff but from a rebuild standpoint, he cant possibly be in our long term plans. So to keep him in favour of a guy who may never be more than a 4th liner, but who might end up lost on waivers would be bad.  

Then again, if we do trade him at the deadline again & get another haul of players, maybe its worth it. 

I think its a tricky one to gauge at this point.  If we had a GM who made good decisions Id probably give him the benefit of the doubt but we have MB so... 

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MB was active on the FA market, just no one good wanted to play here, he was active knowing weber's injury, he may trade MP, but weber and price are his role models for the team, there's no rebuild coming, and i'm sorry if i see these young players he signed and bringing up as his style players, grit and jam or character 3-4th liners, it's not a rebuild just a bad GM who struck out in FA

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On the above:

Sure, Plekanec is a better player than Rychel or Evans or DLR or McCarron today. My point is, who cares? If we were a competitive team vying for a Cup, then by all means, yes, sign Plekanec. Yes, it's of value to have a player like Mitchell, Halpern, Metropolit, or Dom Moore to play center in your bottom 6. That's what Plekanec has become now. He's not a top 6 center any more. He's a bottom  guy who brings veteran savvy, experience, smarts, defensive awareness, etc.

But reality? We're going to suck. We have no top 6 centers. We're missing at least two top 4 D men. One of our top D men is out half the year and who knows how he'll rebound. Our skill forwards are almost all small. Our captain will probably be traded, and the return right now feels like it will be utterly underwhelming. This team is in transition. It's inconsequential as to whether their 3rd line center produces 35 points or 28 points. What matters is building the right team for the future. That to me means developing guys who might conceivably be useful in 2 years or 4 years or 6 years, and Plekanec simply isn't one of those guys.

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Morale of the Story: never listen to Serge Savard's recommendation.  :4322: Geoff Molson really has to wean himself off the old guard, and seek new advisors.  Yes, these were legendary players during their time but good players don't necessarily make good advisors/strategists/managers/coaches post-retirement.  

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A

MB still speaks French, apparently that's a requirement so that's awesome

Plekanec can hopefully be traded at next year's deadline for picks and/or prospects

July 1 - MB didn't handcuff us in anyway, nothing he could do about JT

Bourque was traded for a better player and two picks, good use of our cap space, I would like to see more of this

Weber's injury will give more ice time to younger players and will lead to less wins which will lead to better picks

Staff upgrades seemed to have occurred

Galchenyuk was scoring too many goals, now we will likely lose a few more games which will lead to better picks

Draft seemed to go well enough, MB did well to load TT up with picks and we finally have a #2 possibly a #1 centerman...he's a few years away but at least we have one coming

Too bad Pacioretty and LA couldn't come to terms, not because I don't like Pacioretty, but presumably we would have gotten more...wait for it...picks and prospects which is what we need.

We need to be bad for 2-3 solid more years, and restock the cupboards.  MB is getting both of those tasks done. 

 

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9 hours ago, Windoe said:

 

We need to be bad for 2-3 solid more years, and restock the cupboards.  MB is getting both of those tasks done. 

 

Every team re stocks every year during draft week  - maybe developing needs some attention

F

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9 hours ago, Windoe said:

A

MB still speaks French, apparently that's a requirement so that's awesome

Plekanec can hopefully be traded at next year's deadline for picks and/or prospects

July 1 - MB didn't handcuff us in anyway, nothing he could do about JT

Bourque was traded for a better player and two picks, good use of our cap space, I would like to see more of this

Weber's injury will give more ice time to younger players and will lead to less wins which will lead to better picks

Staff upgrades seemed to have occurred

Galchenyuk was scoring too many goals, now we will likely lose a few more games which will lead to better picks

Draft seemed to go well enough, MB did well to load TT up with picks and we finally have a #2 possibly a #1 centerman...he's a few years away but at least we have one coming

Too bad Pacioretty and LA couldn't come to terms, not because I don't like Pacioretty, but presumably we would have gotten more...wait for it...picks and prospects which is what we need.

We need to be bad for 2-3 solid more years, and restock the cupboards.  MB is getting both of those tasks done. 

 

Yeah, we better get better picks. The rest of the league is counting on us to supply their teams with players.

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10 hours ago, Windoe said:

A

MB still speaks French, apparently that's a requirement so that's awesome

Plekanec can hopefully be traded at next year's deadline for picks and/or prospects

July 1 - MB didn't handcuff us in anyway, nothing he could do about JT

Bourque was traded for a better player and two picks, good use of our cap space, I would like to see more of this

Weber's injury will give more ice time to younger players and will lead to less wins which will lead to better picks

Staff upgrades seemed to have occurred

Galchenyuk was scoring too many goals, now we will likely lose a few more games which will lead to better picks

Draft seemed to go well enough, MB did well to load TT up with picks and we finally have a #2 possibly a #1 centerman...he's a few years away but at least we have one coming

Too bad Pacioretty and LA couldn't come to terms, not because I don't like Pacioretty, but presumably we would have gotten more...wait for it...picks and prospects which is what we need.

We need to be bad for 2-3 solid more years, and restock the cupboards.  MB is getting both of those tasks done. 

 

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. Agreed that the coaching moves and Armia trade were good, but the coaching changes were too little too late. Lefebvre, Lacroix, and Daigneault have been harmfully bad at their jobs for years. And I don't give Bergevin any points for making a bad Galchenyuk trade, failing to deal Pacioretty, building a bad team by accident, or Weber being hurt twice and not being honest to the media about it. You make a good case for his earning an F.

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I still say we're closer now to a Cup than we've been since '93 though.  So in that regard MB has been useful.

The "get-in-the-playoffs-and-you-never-know" plan isn't working.  We know what happens, we lose in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round and our names don't engraved on the Cup.

At least now we've fallen so far that our only way out is through picks and prospects.  Coincidentally, that's also the path to our next Cup so...A.

A for moving us from mediocre to laughing stock.  Now if only he would quit while he's on top.

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I would give Bergevin a pretty low grade for his major moves. D, I guess. I'm still not too pleased about the whole Domi for Alex thing.

I also don't think we should be commending him for things like firing his inept coaches and hiring Ducharme, etc. These were moves that I would have given him credit for if he had done his job a few years earlier rather than wait 'til a time when every single Montreal fan knew what needed to be done.

I do think his trading of Bourque to Winnipeg was good. A.

The draft... I don't know. I still think we should have picked Zadina. The rest of the picks... It's too early to tell.

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It is pretty funny that the Habs are now doing a rebuild 2 years after a massive "win now" trade lmao. I voted B just in the context of the last year, only move I really dislike is Domi for Galchenyuk and I honestly don't know if it was a net negative as a trade. I think the Habs stumbled into a good trade for the wrong reasons (I highly doubt the rationale was based on Domi's substantially better possession game over Galchenyuk's). After that I like most of the coaching and draft decisions and some of the dice rolls on free agents. I guess I can understand why people still don't credit that because they're too late, but at least the team is moving in a reasonable direction now and I'm just glad to finally have some decent prospect depth. 

If I were voting for the whole tenure it's an easy D, squandered the primes of Subban/Price/Pacioretty and Petry was the only net addition to the core going into season 7. Only saved from an F because so far every mistake made is more or less salvageable and the next GM will have more or less a clean slate and now a solid prospect pool and young forward core to start from. This could have easily gone south with a big Bozak contract and trading 1sts for O'Reilly or something. 

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11 hours ago, Windoe said:

I still say we're closer now to a Cup than we've been since '93 though.  So in that regard MB has been useful.

 

LOL......for that statement to be correct we've got 24 years to win a cup.

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Can we vote lower than 'F'?  MB is by far the worst GM in the league, he should have been canned last year.  The only trade he even came close to winning or breaking even on was sending Pleks to TOR for a second rnd pick and then he totally blows the first round pick.  He has set this franchise back 5 years, signed a great goalie to a joke of a contract that we can only hope can be moved. Traded a Norris winning D man for a D man 5 years older that is slower, and injury prone.

 

Personally I will not buy another Molson product until MB is fired, nor will I attend another hockey game in Montreal until this meat head is fired

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3 hours ago, Noob616 said:

Only saved from an F because so far every mistake made is more or less salvageable and the next GM will have more or less a clean slate and now a solid prospect pool and young forward core to start from. This could have easily gone south with a big Bozak contract and trading 1sts for O'Reilly or something. 

This is actually a very important point.

Its the reason I cant rank MB lower than Houle (yet).   What happens with those assets next is the real key though.   You can hate Weber for Subban but the reality is that Weber is still a valuable asset (assuming he comes back healthy & Dr Mulder's track record has never been to sugar coat things).  

We have valuable, tradable assets in Price, Pacioretty, Weber, Petry, Byron, Shaw etc. These are players who should all bring back anywhere from decent to very good return, and all guys who dont really fit within our new window of winning.   


Unfortunately I worry that MB's grade will descend into F territory soon if he allows those assets to devalue before trading them - and pretty much all of them save maybe Price (because of the position he plays), will be in heavy decline by the time we're ready to actually compete. 

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8 hours ago, Noob616 said:

It is pretty funny that the Habs are now doing a rebuild 2 years after a massive "win now" trade lmao. I voted B just in the context of the last year, only move I really dislike is Domi for Galchenyuk and I honestly don't know if it was a net negative as a trade. I think the Habs stumbled into a good trade for the wrong reasons (I highly doubt the rationale was based on Domi's substantially better possession game over Galchenyuk's). After that I like most of the coaching and draft decisions and some of the dice rolls on free agents. I guess I can understand why people still don't credit that because they're too late, but at least the team is moving in a reasonable direction now and I'm just glad to finally have some decent prospect depth. 

If I were voting for the whole tenure it's an easy D, squandered the primes of Subban/Price/Pacioretty and Petry was the only net addition to the core going into season 7. Only saved from an F because so far every mistake made is more or less salvageable and the next GM will have more or less a clean slate and now a solid prospect pool and young forward core to start from. This could have easily gone south with a big Bozak contract and trading 1sts for O'Reilly or something. 

The funny thing is this: if we had fired Bergevin on April 10th and had a new GM take over, we'd probably give him a higher grade than we're giving MB. The coaching hires have been positive, the Armia trade was good, and we didn't overpay for bad free agents. But when you put everything into context of what Bergevin has done, it's just abysmal. MB has had time to know where his team is headed, and it was vital for him to trade away aging assets this off-season. Pacioretty is IMO still a valuable asset going forward, but in a rebuilding schema, he probably needs to be dealt for younger assets. We certainly can't afford to re-up him to 8M a year while hanging on to Weber and Price too, and while Shea is injured, more effort should have been put into moving Price and maybe other guys like Byron, Schlemko, Benn, Alzner, Shaw, Petry, etc. I've already gone over why I think the Plekanec move sets back another player's development and doesn't really help us in any way (and yes, we can see if he fetches us another 2nd rounder, it adds some positive value, but is it a net positive to win a 2nd rounder but lose a year in developing another prospect?). And knowing that MB is the reason Galchenyuk was so devalued as an asset, he gets blame for trading him when his stock is low (particularly when it would have been easy to play him at center in a lost season last year and bring his value up, if you knew you were looking to move him).

So yeah, maybe some of these moves won't hurt us in the long run, but some of them will... squandering Subban for an older, more worn-down player has come back to bite us. It probably closed our Cup window 2-3 years earlier than it otherwise would have. Trading Beaulieu in order to keep Benn? Exposing Hudon to the expansion draft (he's lucky to have gotten away with that)? Signing guys like Prust and Desharnais and Alzner to long-term deals but forcing Galchenyuk and Subban and Eller to go bridge? Hanging on to Therrien and Lefebvre and Daigneault and Lacroix way too long? All of these things have long-term effects that have set back player development and made us older and less talented. We all know Markov and Subban helped feed Pacioretty for a lot of his goals. So imagine he kept those two guys and Pacioretty scored 30 again last year... imagine we made the playoffs instead of struggling with an injured Weber... maybe Pacioretty's trade value is through the roof and we get a Duchene-like return. Maybe Tavares sees us as an option and signs here. Lots of what-ifs, but not implausible that some of Bergevin's dumb moves actually will have repercussions for a long time, even if we can't tangibly measure their impact. Who knows if some of our AHLers would have developed better, but our track record for development is far below league average and it's more than likely Lefebvre did more harm than good.

As far as acquired assets go, Petry was a great trade. I'd argue Danault was also a good acquisition, and I would still see him as part of our core going forward (and a guy I actually like as a future captain). But yeah, in general, Bergevin rode out the core he was given and did next to nothing with it and now he's left us having to build up a lot from scratch.

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13 hours ago, Regis22 said:

How do you figure that

By failing properly, we got better picks this year.  I'd rather have #3 overall than #16 (middle of the pack).  We need to lose, get good picks, trade aging assets for picks and prospects, keep those picks and prospects, keep our hands out of the July 1st cookie jar, sell rental players at the deadline, take on salary dumps for picks, and draft and develop.  We're at least moving in the right direction now, even if it feels like we're getting worse in the short term, and even if Mr. & Mrs. Transparent won't say we're in a rebuild.

It looks like our window was open for about a year or two when we had Price in his prime, Patches and PK.  They didn't get it done.  That was our core for that window.  That time is over.  A better GM would have had it open longer.  But its closed now.  The way to reopen the window is with picks and prospects and we are further ahead in that regard right now than we were last year this time.

What we get back for our aging vets is critical.  We have assets other teams want.  We need to move these assets and get what we want: quality picks and quality prospects.  

We're at the bottom of the team development life cycle, no window for us, lots of holes, some good prospects coming, lots more new prospects still needed.  Embrace the stage we're in.  We're not winning the Cup any time soon, so find some other things in the current scenario to like because its going to be a long next few years.  Don't think we'll get it done as fast as Toronto did by the way, be prepared for a much harder and longer rebuild.







 

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If the criteria is since Oct 2017, I'll give a "C". I know that sounds crazy, but think about it, in that time period he didn't: 

 a.) trade our all-star defenseman for and older and less useful defenseman

  b.) trade our best prospect to add another player at a position of strength

  c.) play hardball with 2 important players and lose both of them

  d.) Give a long-term 10.5 million contract to a 30 year-old, injury prone goaltender.

  e.) Somehow screw up the draft

  f.) Sign Karl Alzner

  g.) Completely ignore the problems with our farm team. 

And he even got a 2nd rounder for Tomas Plekanec. Sure, the Galchenyk trade doesn't look great. But there's that saying about the best moves being the ones you don't make, and Bergevin didn't do any of the above in that time period.

 

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