H_T_L

2018-19 Rumour thread

394 posts in this topic

Here's how rare players change teams via an offer sheet.

  • Offer sheets are a rare occurrence. Since the salary cap was implemented in 2005 only eight NHL players have signed offer sheets. Of those eight players, Dustin Penner was the only player successfully signed away
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Only next years free agents are off limits until after July 1st

Are GM's actually allowed to negotiate with the player or are they only allowed to submit an offer sheet?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Here's how rare players change teams via an offer sheet.

  • Offer sheets are a rare occurrence. Since the salary cap was implemented in 2005 only eight NHL players have signed offer sheets. Of those eight players, Dustin Penner was the only player successfully signed away

Exactly.  And imagine you're Toronto.  You have Tavares right in his prime years. You have Marleau in the twilight. You have quality middle tier guys like Kadri, Gardiner, Zaitzev, Lidholm etc who are approaching their late 20s.  You want to win now.  You dont care about 1st 2nd and 3rd round draft picks who will probably make your roster (if you're lucky) in 3-4 years. You want guys who can compete now and play in this year (and the next couple of years') playoffs.

If that is Nylander, but if not, you want to turn him into an asset who plays immediately.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Are GM's actually allowed to negotiate with the player or are they only allowed to submit an offer sheet?

My understanding is that their contact is limited.  They can tender offer sheets but i dont think they can wine and dine them for example, but Im sure they can talk to the player - i dont think they have to submit a blind offer. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, maas_art said:

My understanding is that their contact is limited.  They can tender offer sheets but i dont think they can wine and dine them for example, but Im sure they can talk to the player - i dont think they have to submit a blind offer. 

yeah and even if you can't speak to the player or agent I don't think offers are made public, Nylander would have to actually sign the deal and then it's in Toronto's hands to decide to accept compensation or match

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an interesting read as to why teams aren't offer sheeting Nylander...

For a young, blossoming, star-caliber player who wants a long-term deal in excess of five years, the offer sheet route is a tough go for opposing clubs.

Say a player is demanding a seven-year deal worth a total of $56M. If he signed that with his current team, that would result in an annual average of $8M.

However, if a competing club was to offer sheet this player for the same term and dollar figure, the average annual value becomes much bigger because of the rules of an offer sheet.

Since the offer sheet rules state the annual average is determined by the total dollar figure of the offer sheet divided by the lesser of the term of the deal or five, a seven-year term becomes a five-year term.

Doing the math, this would mean $56M is divided by 5, which equates to an average annual value of $11.2M. Referencing the chart above, this means that a team would have to surrender a whopping four first-round picks to sign this player. No one is doing that, and if they did, the team who currently owns the player’s rights could simply match the offer and keep a player who a competing team believed was worth throwing away the future for.

They could also decline to match and obtain a massive return.

History

Of course, the above is exactly why the offer sheet is such a rarely used strategy in today’s NHL. The NHL implemented a hard salary cap in 2005, and since that time there have been only eight players to receive and sign an offer sheet. Of those eight, only Dustin Penner’s offer sheet was not matched by his current club (Anaheim) and he ended up signing and playing for his new team (Edmonton) for the 2007-08 season. You may remember the Brian Burke/Kevin Lowe beef that was set off by what Burke believed to be a bully move on Lowe’s behalf.

While Penner was the only player to leave his team via an offer sheet, the Shea Weber example after the 2011-12 season is perhaps the most famous offer sheet in league history.

The Flyers extended Weber a whopping 14-year offer sheet worth a total of $110M in an attempt to lure the then-superstar from Nashville to the City of Brotherly love. Of course, Weber signed this deal knowing that either way he was going to make an average annual income of $7,857,143 for the next 14 years whether the Predators matched or not. Talk about financial security.

Weber being a top-three defenseman in the league at the time, Nashville anted up and matched the offer to retain their stud blueliner.

The Weber offer sheet is why the maximum seven-year offer sheet term rule was implemented. If the Flyers were able to land Weber via the offer sheet, they would have had to surrender a first-round, second-round and third-round pick as of today’s scale. With the lesser of the full contract term or five rule, Philly would have had to surrender four first-rounders as of today’s scale.

The rule was implemented to make it more difficult for competing teams to attempt to poach a team’s player and also make it more difficult to saddle an opposing team with an enormous contract like Nashville had to swallow which now belongs to Montreal.

William Nylander Situation

Being the only unsigned RFA player in the league at the moment and in the midst of one of the biggest RFA contract stalemates in history, the above can explain why Nylander hasn’t been extended an offer sheet by a competing club.

Reportedly, he’s seeking a contract similar to the seven-year, $56M example from above. No one in their right mind is going to surrender four first-round picks for Nylander. This becomes more truthful when we are talking about poor teams that will potentially draft in the top 10 or better for a couple more years.

If a team went nuts and did offer Nylander an offer sheet with those terms, it’s a layup that Maple Leafs GM Kyle Dubas would not match, accumulate four first-round picks and use the salary cap space to his advantage.

https://www.thesportsgeek.com/blog/understanding-nhl-offer-sheets-6742/

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So from my interpretation above, the absolute best we could offer Nylander would be a 5 year deal at 8 mill a year to stay within that 1st, 2nd and 3rd compensation.

Draft Pick Compensation

$1,339,575 or below – None

Over $1,339,576 to $2,029,659 – 3rd Round Pick

Over $2,029,659 to $4,059,322 -2nd Round Pick

Over $4,059,322 to $6,088,980 – 1st Round and 3rd Round Pick

Over $6,088,980 to $8,118,641 – 1st Round, 2nd Round and 3rd Round Pick

Over $8,118,641 to $10,148,302 -Two 1st Round Picks, one 2nd Round Pick and one 3rd Round Pick

Over $10,148,302 – Four 1st Round Picks

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

So from my interpretation above, the absolute best we could offer Nylander would be a 5 year deal at 8 mill a year to stay within that 1st, 2nd and 3rd compensation.

yeah I agree, I'm not willing to give 4 1sts for Nylander. But I do think that Nylander might accept a 5 year deal at 8 million because I just don't see the Leafs giving him a bridge deal if its not at a reduced amount 5 to 6 million maybe

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, habsisme said:

yeah I agree, I'm not willing to give 4 1sts for Nylander. But I do think that Nylander might accept a 5 year deal at 8 million because I just don't see the Leafs giving him a bridge deal if its not at a reduced amount 5 to 6 million maybe

I still 100% think they match that offer. A 5 year deal at that amount makes him a lot more attractive as a trade asset then an 8 year deal. I doubt they would settle for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would offer the 8x5 if you get him great if not it has not cost anything. We have nothing to lose while we are so high in the standings, at this point in time we have the position of strength over the Leafs. We may not be in the same position in a month, so I would at least make the offer. Most likely they match and life goes on, but there is also an outside chance they are done with his stubbornness and just let him go.

Edited by campabee82
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, H_T_L said:

I think the Leafs would go as high as 7 mill/year.  The story is that Nylander won't move off his ask for 8X8. Settling at 7 would be the natural solution between two sides,, where one is offering 6 and the other wanting 8.

I'm thinking he gets a bridge deal next week.

From what I've read, Nylander is asking for at least 8 x 8M too. To boot, he is highly concerned that if he signs the deal he wants, Toronto will just turn around and trade him because they can't afford him, so he also wants some form of no-trade protection. And lastly, I don't think he wants a bridge deal when he sees other similar players getting long-term contracts right away. I heard Nylander sees himself in the same class as Leon Draisaitl and thinks he should be getting a long-term deal close to that one.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Just as a side discussion,,,, our current Cap space is just under 7.5 mill

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/cap/

Yeah but moving Schlemko, Alzner and Shaw frees up about 10.63 mil so we have the room if we make the required changes

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

From what I've read, Nylander is asking for at least 8 x 8M too. To boot, he is highly concerned that if he signs the deal he wants, Toronto will just turn around and trade him because they can't afford him, so he also wants some form of no-trade protection. And lastly, I don't think he wants a bridge deal when he sees other similar players getting long-term contracts right away. I heard Nylander sees himself in the same class as Leon Draisaitl and thinks he should be getting a long-term deal close to that one.

I agree to this just two points to note for rfa's. One the max length is 7 years. Two he is not entitled to a nmc/ntc. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I agree to this just two points to note for rfa's. One the max length is 7 years. Two he is not entitled to a nmc/ntc. 

7 years for other teams but toronto can sign him for 8; as Mcdavid and Draisaitl did. RFAs are NOT allowed to have any kind of nmc/ntc BUT the end of the contract, where the player would have been a UFA, you can have it. In this case if Nylander signed an 8 year deal he could have a nmc/ntc on the last 3 years I believe, but Toronto can just trade him before it kicks in. Nothing the leafs can do, the cannot offer him a no trade clause during his restricted years.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Yeah but moving Schlemko, Alzner and Shaw frees up about 10.63 mil so we have the room if we make the required changes

Yes,,, assuming we get picks or prospects for them and not other roster players with similar bad deals. That's the tough part  IMO.  The Leafs on the other hand won't be overly burdened paying Nylander his asking price. What may happen is that they'll need to move a Kadri type contract next  season, which should get them assets in return to fill other holes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Yes,,, assuming we get picks or prospects for them and not other roster players with similar bad deals. That's the tough part  IMO.  The Leafs on the other hand won't be overly burdened paying Nylander his asking price. What may happen is that they'll need to move a Kadri type contract next  season, which should get them assets in return to fill other holes.

My opinion is Dubas is getting tired of dealing with Nylander and his agent and may just walk away from them with the picks.

Edited by campabee82
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We should find out within the next couple weeks. Nobody  thinks this will go to Dec 1st.

Good discussion guys.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed it wont go to Dec 1st but I think it goes to the last week of Nov. Unless an offer sheet is signed

Edited by campabee82
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nylander will be signed for as little as possible for as long as possible and then be traded. I don't think the Leafs will cave on this. He either signs to the Leafs terms or he won't be playing.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

I agree to this just two points to note for rfa's. One the max length is 7 years. Two he is not entitled to a nmc/ntc. 

 

1 hour ago, habsisme said:

7 years for other teams but toronto can sign him for 8; as Mcdavid and Draisaitl did. RFAs are NOT allowed to have any kind of nmc/ntc BUT the end of the contract, where the player would have been a UFA, you can have it. In this case if Nylander signed an 8 year deal he could have a nmc/ntc on the last 3 years I believe, but Toronto can just trade him before it kicks in. Nothing the leafs can do, the cannot offer him a no trade clause during his restricted years.

Habsisme is right...

1. Yes, free agents of any type can sign 8 years with their own team.

2. The NTC can be attributed to any would-be UFA years, which is calculated as years after the player hits age 27 or has been pro for 7 years. Nylander has already been pro for 3 years, so he would only need 4 more to attain UFA status. So on an 8-year deal, he could actually have a NTC or NMC for the last 4 years. I guess it doesn't help him up front but does give him some form of long-term protection. And he could also ask for a gentleman's handshake deal with Dubas, which doesn't prevent anything but does make Dubas look pretty bad if he goes back on his word.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

Habsisme is right...

1. Yes, free agents of any type can sign 8 years with their own team.

2. The NTC can be attributed to any would-be UFA years, which is calculated as years after the player hits age 27 or has been pro for 7 years. Nylander has already been pro for 3 years, so he would only need 4 more to attain UFA status. So on an 8-year deal, he could actually have a NTC or NMC for the last 4 years. I guess it doesn't help him up front but does give him some form of long-term protection. And he could also ask for a gentleman's handshake deal with Dubas, which doesn't prevent anything but does make Dubas look pretty bad if he goes back on his word.

Thanks for the clarification on the term and nmc/ntc. I don't think Nylander will sign a bridge deal cause he wants the no movement guarantee. So if Dubas wants to get the deal done he is going to have to do term and nmc for the last 4 years. Otherwise I don't see Nylander resigning with the Leafs. I think that if someone was to offer 7 at 7 with the nmc tacked on he would sign and force the Leafs to match or accept compensation. If the Leafs match they are obviously stuck with him for the 7 years cause if they trade him before the nmc kicks in then no young player will trust Dubas and the Leafs for a while. I think that is the real issue on the negotiations, the money can be worked out but I don't think the Leafs want to limit their options to Nylander if a future trade for him can make them better. The risk in the Leafs locking him in for 7 years is not worth the reward in their opinion is my take on the situation.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not quite clear on this, so, if we were to offer a contract to Nylander, exactly what would we have to give up to the Laffs?  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

I'm not quite clear on this, so, if we were to offer a contract to Nylander, exactly what would we have to give up to the Laffs?  

Thicker shoulder pads for Matthews?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, kinot-2 said:

I'm not quite clear on this, so, if we were to offer a contract to Nylander, exactly what would we have to give up to the Laffs?  

If we offer him 7 x 8M, we would owe them 4 first rounders.

If we offer him 5 x 8M, we would owe them a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

If we offered him a one-year deal for 10.1M, we would owe them a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (potentially the toughest deal for Toronto to match because of the cap hit, and then we could offer Nylander a long-term deal after this year).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.