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ramcharger440

Claude Julien: to return in 2020-21

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Yeah... I'm not really blaming Julien for the mess we're continually in. We clearly needed help on D before the season started. We never got it. Now... we've taken a pretty significant hit to our forward corps because of injury and the team's shortcomings are that much pronounced.

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1 hour ago, ChiLla said:

The problem is that we don't have a Crosby (or a Malkin), none of our guys is even remotely close to that level. Julien isn't the problem, in my eyes he is one of the main reasons we can actually compete with good teams when healthy. His system requires rolling 4 effective lines, which becomes very difficult when so many key guys are out for extended periods of time. I'm not fond of overusing Cousins and Weal either but they'd see significantly less ice time under different circumstances.

We have been losing for years with this coach. Just good enough to almost get us in but not quite. Still only good in hand grenades and horse shoes. Tired of losing this has been going on so long that  your all excepting it now. Its the norm. Any position in any game is overusing Cousins and Weal. Lot more options then those two, need a coach that will use them.

 

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Posted (edited)

50 minutes ago, tony5775 said:

We have been losing for years with this coach. Just good enough to almost get us in but not quite. Still only good in hand grenades and horse shoes. Tired of losing this has been going on so long that  your all excepting it now. Its the norm. Any position in any game is overusing Cousins and Weal. Lot more options then those two, need a coach that will use them.

I don't accept losing, what I'm accepting is that we're still lacking the required talent to win with any kind of consistency, which is on Bergevin and not on Julien. I think the latter is doing a pretty decent job with what we have and don't have on the roster, especially this season he has also shown that he's actually willing to give the kids a chance. I don't think overusing Weal or Cousins should be seen as grounds for dismissal. I also don't think there are any signs that he has lost the room, so IMO a coaching change wouldn't really do much. Last season, we almost made the playoffs with several players having career years under Julien but we still weren't good enough. This season, I don't see any major underperformers outside of Byron and Price either, but I don't think we can blame Julien for that.

Edited by ChiLla
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35 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

I don't accept losing, what I'm accepting is that we're still lacking the required talent to win with any kind of consistency, which is on Bergevin and not on Julien. I think the latter is doing a pretty decent job with what we have and don't have on the roster, especially this season he has also shown that he's actually willing to give the kids a chance. I don't think overusing Weal or Cousins should be seen as grounds for dismissal. I also don't think there are any signs that he has lost the room, so IMO a coaching change wouldn't really do much. Last season, we almost made the playoffs with several players having career years under Julien but we still weren't good enough. This season, I don't see any major underperformers outside of Byron and Price either, but I don't think we can blame Julien for that.

You think Julien gives the young players a chance? Where in our lineup are Fleury, Mete, Kotkaniemi and Poehling playing? That's right the bottom. Scandella did nothing to prove he should be above Mete at this point although there was a report that Mete is playing with a bruised bone in his foot for the last 2 weeks so maybe that's why he is being sheltered a bit. Petry hasn't been great over the last 2 months and Fluery has been but is still on the third pairing. Poehling has just gotten a shot at the top 9 in the last 2 games and KK was never given a shift in the top 6 even when playing extremely well last season. We continuously see Weal, Cousins, Wiese, Thompson, Peca among others in the bottom 6 and sometimes in top 6 roles over guys like Evans, Vejdemo, Belzile and until recently Poehling. So while some of its on MB some is on CJ as well. Not to mention the fact that CJ felt the need to say the guys aren't tuning him out and Price saying he is beyond frustrated that to me reads as if CJ feels like he is losing the vets in the room.

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6 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

Petry hasn't been great over the last 2 months and Fluery has been but is still on the third pairing. 

Honestly i think its impossible to say if a coach is or isnt good with youth vs. vets because we never have all the info.  like you said about Mete - maybe he's hurt so he's being sheltered - but i'll speak to this one point (fleury vs petry):   

Fleury has been good against the opposition's lower lines.  Those are the assignments he draws.    You're suggesting that Fleury should get more ice time and Petry should get less but that means that Fleury would take on those tougher assignments which may not be ideal. Sure, maybe he thrives but i think its unlikely (Yet).  He's playing behind Weber and Petry, there's not much icetime left after those two.  Julien seems to have plenty of confidence in him though.  

Poehling hasnt looked great (Better than the beggining of the year for sure but has a lot of little things to work on).  Suzuki has enjoyed lots of confidence from the coach.   The only guys who i think has been sheltered too much is JK but honestly at times he seems like he needs sheltering.  Too bad we had so many injuries (Drouin in particular) because otherwise i think JK would have been exposed to more - but again, without being in the room its tough to say whether he could handle it. None of us know how a particular player is feeling, how his confidence is, who is injured etc. 

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My biggest issue with CJ has been his steadfast refusal to use our best on the powerplay. First it was Cousins then Weal and at times both on the 1st wave. It just baffles me. I'm OK with his use of the kids. Suzuki started on the 4th but his play has earned him those promotions and extra ice time. Fleury has played well and the 3rd pairing is probably the best spot for him this year. JK at center will get his chances eventually,,, i'm pretty confidant of that. Injuries have hurt with the linemates he's been assigned, but that should improve as we get healthy. Remember he has played with Armia and Lehky and Drouin early on. Those 3 aren't slouches. Poehling i see as the project out of the 4 kids but CJ seems to like him OK and as he improves i'm sure he'll get the chances. 

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I'm in the group that doesn't think firing Julien will solve anything. The main problem is that MB has been slow or failed to address the team's biggest needs. He has quasi-addressed the center position, and even now that we have some decent 2C's, I'm still not sure there's a 1C on this roster right now. And we all know about the giant hole on the left side of the D. He's also failed to find an adequate back-up goalie until now.

So yeah, we can blame Julien all we want, but at the end of the day, this roster was never good enough to compete for a Cup, and even Bergevin himself said he saw the team as being "in a position to compete for a playoff spot" so he knows the roster isn't good enough. To win like we did to start the year, we need to get goaltending that's not below-average and we need to be able to count on our depth to overcome the fact we have no real stars. When our depth went down to injury, we've been stuck using the likes of Cousins, Weal, Weise, Vejdemo, and others on top of our shoddy D corps. It isn't a recipe for success no matter who the coach is.

That said, Julien has had difficulties with each of his special teams at times during his tenure here, but we've been a top possession team at ES, so his system largely works in that capacity. And certainly I would like to see less of Weal and Thompson and Cousins, both in terms of ice time and PP usage for some of them. I would like to see JK given better linemates instead of Danault always getting the top linemates. Yes, there are things that could be better. But we say this about every coach... how many times have we complained about top 6-9 ice time for Laraque or Moen or Prust or Blunden or Dwight King or so on. Every coach leans too much on a couple of unskilled veteran players, and I have a hard time believing a new coach would stop doing that altogether, especially when the Habs tend to go back to the same well of Francophone coaches with prior experience who are from similar schools of thought about this.

IMO, Julien isn't the problem. And maybe we could do better, but if we're going to find a younger, more dynamic coach with a new-age approach to coaching who uses advanced statistics to get an edge (as teams in the NFL and MLB have been doing for years), then we probably need to find a new GM before anything.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, campabee82 said:

You think Julien gives the young players a chance? Where in our lineup are Fleury, Mete, Kotkaniemi and Poehling playing? That's right the bottom. Scandella did nothing to prove he should be above Mete at this point although there was a report that Mete is playing with a bruised bone in his foot for the last 2 weeks so maybe that's why he is being sheltered a bit. Petry hasn't been great over the last 2 months and Fluery has been but is still on the third pairing. Poehling has just gotten a shot at the top 9 in the last 2 games and KK was never given a shift in the top 6 even when playing extremely well last season. We continuously see Weal, Cousins, Wiese, Thompson, Peca among others in the bottom 6 and sometimes in top 6 roles over guys like Evans, Vejdemo, Belzile and until recently Poehling. So while some of its on MB some is on CJ as well. Not to mention the fact that CJ felt the need to say the guys aren't tuning him out and Price saying he is beyond frustrated that to me reads as if CJ feels like he is losing the vets in the room.

Are you not mentioning Suzuki on purpose? The guy who started off on the 4th line, then turned heads quickly, and is since then being used in all situations and might even come close to 50 points in his rookie season? Of course Julien is giving the kids a chance, that doesn't mean they should all be playing 20 minutes a night and receive favorable treatment over established veterans who have proven for years or sometimes decades that they can perform consistently in the best league in the world. Because that would be one way of losing a room pretty quickly.

All of the kids are getting regular shifts at the NHL level, with the exception of Vejdemo, who has seen limited ice time in his handful of games so far. Scandella has played 3 games as a Hab but has been in this league for 10 years, so let's take a look and see what he can do for us. Mete has finally started to score a little, but to me the jury is still out if he can be more than #4-5 guy, which is pretty much what Scandella has been for the last decade. Fleury looks promising but I don't see why he should be on the 2nd pairing ahead of Petry after what, having 1 goal and not even 40 NHL games under his belt? Poehling has been okay but certainly wasn't impressive, Kotkaniemi struggled to start the season, then got hurt, and is now trying to find his game. He'll come around, he's also pretty young and still a little rough but in all fairness, I don't think he has really forced anyone's hand with his play this season.

As for Evans and other guys from Laval, we've already seen 7 rookies in the lineup this season, which is quite a lot. Realistically, how many rookies do you expect Julien to give a shot per year? It's fine to disagree with ice-time allocation and overusing certain players over others, we all have our opinions and preferences, but the claim that Julien doesn't give young players a chance because they aren't playing in the top 6 or on the top 2 defensive pairings just doesn't hold any water IMO.

Edited by ChiLla
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2 hours ago, ChiLla said:

Are you not mentioning Suzuki on purpose? The guy who started off on the 4th line, then turned heads quickly, and is since then being used in all situations and might even come close to 50 points in his rookie season? Of course Julien is giving the kids a chance, that doesn't mean they should all be playing 20 minutes a night and receive favorable treatment over established veterans who have proven for years or sometimes decades that they can perform consistently in the best league in the world. Because that would be one way of losing a room pretty quickly.

All of the kids are getting regular shifts at the NHL level, with the exception of Vejdemo, who has seen limited ice time in his handful of games so far. Scandella has played 3 games as a Hab but has been in this league for 10 years, so let's take a look and see what he can do for us. Mete has finally started to score a little, but to me the jury is still out if he can be more than #4-5 guy, which is pretty much what Scandella has been for the last decade. Fleury looks promising but I don't see why he should be on the 2nd pairing ahead of Petry after what, having 1 goal and not even 40 NHL games under his belt? Poehling has been okay but certainly wasn't impressive, Kotkaniemi struggled to start the season, then got hurt, and is now trying to find his game. He'll come around, he's also pretty young and still a little rough but in all fairness, I don't think he has really forced anyone's hand with his play this season.

As for Evans and other guys from Laval, we've already seen 7 rookies in the lineup this season, which is quite a lot. Realistically, how many rookies do you expect Julien to give a shot per year? It's fine to disagree with ice-time allocation and overusing certain players over others, we all have our opinions and preferences, but the claim that Julien doesn't give young players a chance because they aren't playing in the top 6 or on the top 2 defensive pairings just doesn't hold any water IMO.

Your right I did skip Suzuki on purpose cause he is the one rookie I think Julien is actually being fair to. Also I said CJ didn't give KK a shot in the top 6 last year when he was playing well and did outline that KK has struggled this year and Mete may be playing injured but is still better than Scandella from what I have seen so far. Poehling yeah he isn't playing great but he is still better than Weal, Cousins and Peca. Fluery isn't even getting a look in the top 4 which could easily be done on a shift by shift basis. So yeah IMO CJ isn't giving the kids a fair shot.

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I completely blame Julien for a good portion of our troubles, the team looks so flat when playing the bottom teams it's his job to get them going.  Have we won any games against the bottom teams this year??  The PK is absolutely dismal and again this is his responsibility well his and the assistant coaches.  Julien is an old school coach in a new style game it's time to go! 

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, maas_art said:


Poehling hasnt looked great (Better than the beggining of the year for sure but has a lot of little things to work on).  Suzuki has enjoyed lots of confidence from the coach.   The only guys who i think has been sheltered too much is JK but honestly at times he seems like he needs sheltering.  Too bad we had so many injuries (Drouin in particular) because otherwise i think JK would have been exposed to more - but again, without being in the room its tough to say whether he could handle it. None of us know how a particular player is feeling, how his confidence is, who is injured etc. 

Thing with JK is he is still the youngest player on the roster.    So two positives I see is they're still using him at C and he has been playing better over the last few games.   I think JK is in that wierd limbo where they feel he won't learn much in the AHL but still needs more time to mature.   

Having said that ... there's zero excuse to be using weal/thompson/cousins on the PP over JK however.    This is the fundamental problem with Julien.   While he's not vindictive like Therrien, he still has the infuriating habit of going to a veteran of lesser quality than a rookie.   And opposite to Therrien he has the tendency to stick with "what worked" ... eg Tatar, Danault, Gallagher always together.  

Like somebody else said above, he's a coach from a different Era that really hasn't adapted his style to how the game has evolved.

Edited by HabsAlways
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Last night when we went down 4-3 and he called a time out. No one was even listening to Kirk Mueller. Julien threw his arms up in the air in disgust. Would think he would of took control of that situation. No plan of attack took place after that. That was a tough game to watch. But you could see it was going to be a loss early in the third.

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18 hours ago, campabee82 said:

. Fluery isn't even getting a look in the top 4 which could easily be done on a shift by shift basis.

RH D man , do you want to move him ahead of SW or JP ?

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6 hours ago, Regis22 said:

RH D man , do you want to move him ahead of SW or JP ?

JP has been giving up too many picks not scoring and has been making lazy plays lately so yeah I would move CF ahead of him

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5 hours ago, campabee82 said:

JP has been giving up too many picks not scoring and has been making lazy plays lately so yeah I would move CF ahead of him

Petry has 3g6a in his last 10 games ..... Weber has 1g3a in that same stretch.    9pts in 10games is about a 72pt pace over the season, so I'd say Petry is in fact scoring.

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1 hour ago, HabsAlways said:

Petry has 3g6a in his last 10 games ..... Weber has 1g3a in that same stretch.    9pts in 10games is about a 72pt pace over the season, so I'd say Petry is in fact scoring.

Really it hasn't seemed like he was scoring that much! Still I don't know how many times over the last little bit I have seen him try stick handling at the offensive blue line and turn the puck over for a 2 on 1 or breakaway and just not even try to get back. But if he is contributing then your right it doesn't make sense to move him back.

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7 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Really it hasn't seemed like he was scoring that much! Still I don't know how many times over the last little bit I have seen him try stick handling at the offensive blue line and turn the puck over for a 2 on 1 or breakaway and just not even try to get back. But if he is contributing then your right it doesn't make sense to move him back.

Oh don't get me wrong ... he's scoring, I didn't say he was playing great :P

Nobody is really.   I mean two 8 game losing streaks, 3 losses to the worst team in the league, 2 losses the NJ ... 

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2 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Oh don't get me wrong ... he's scoring, I didn't say he was playing great :P

Nobody is really.   I mean two 8 game losing streaks, 3 losses to the worst team in the league, 2 losses the NJ ... 

Yeah no I just didn't realize he was scoring lol 

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Julien is one of the main problems with this team IMO. 

His deployment of players at particular junctures of games is suspect at best. 

Thompson should almost never be on the ice when you're down by a goal late in the game, and when I say almost never, I mean NEVER! 

His reluctance to trust younger players before the injuries is hurting them now, players know when they're not trusted, so when they are asked to play in a role just because of an injury they have that seed planted already and know that the only reason they are getting the "trust" now is because of injury. 

His PP set ups are horrendous, sure, they were clicking for a little bit there but when your #1C has 1G on PP ever....then it's time to try something else....Danault has as many PPG as Nikita Scherbak has SHG...that's sad. Cousins and Weal on the PP is just straight up a head scratcher...I would personally go with someone who lights it up art 5 on 5 play, for me it's Lehkonen.  

I also hate it when he calls out players after a game when it is pretty obvious that that particular play was not the cause of the loss.  Then sending Fleury to the press box after one bad bounce, Chiarot gets injured so now he's back in, great for the kids confidence 

Julien is a nice guy, that is the only thing that sets him apart from Michel Therrien, otherwise they are the same coach essentially - I didn't like the choice when it happened but was willing to give it a chance; how many 8 game losing streaks in a season do you get? 

I am not usually a guy that advocates for someone to be fired but I truly think it is time to turn the page and promote Ducharme or Bouchard, or both. 

With all of this being said, I do not think it moves the needle much this season but it allows the young guys to get used to a new system now so that next season they can all hit the ground running under a new coach. 

 

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1 hour ago, FanFromAB said:

Julien is one of the main problems with this team IMO. 

His deployment of players at particular junctures of games is suspect at best. 

Thompson should almost never be on the ice when you're down by a goal late in the game, and when I say almost never, I mean NEVER! 

His reluctance to trust younger players before the injuries is hurting them now, players know when they're not trusted, so when they are asked to play in a role just because of an injury they have that seed planted already and know that the only reason they are getting the "trust" now is because of injury. 

His PP set ups are horrendous, sure, they were clicking for a little bit there but when your #1C has 1G on PP ever....then it's time to try something else....Danault has as many PPG as Nikita Scherbak has SHG...that's sad. Cousins and Weal on the PP is just straight up a head scratcher...I would personally go with someone who lights it up art 5 on 5 play, for me it's Lehkonen.  

I also hate it when he calls out players after a game when it is pretty obvious that that particular play was not the cause of the loss.  Then sending Fleury to the press box after one bad bounce, Chiarot gets injured so now he's back in, great for the kids confidence 

Julien is a nice guy, that is the only thing that sets him apart from Michel Therrien, otherwise they are the same coach essentially - I didn't like the choice when it happened but was willing to give it a chance; how many 8 game losing streaks in a season do you get? 

I am not usually a guy that advocates for someone to be fired but I truly think it is time to turn the page and promote Ducharme or Bouchard, or both. 

With all of this being said, I do not think it moves the needle much this season but it allows the young guys to get used to a new system now so that next season they can all hit the ground running under a new coach. 

 

I agree it would be good to get somenoe on the ground now to get the team moving in the right direction with a new system 

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15 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree it would be good to get somenoe on the ground now to get the team moving in the right direction with a new system 

Problem is, that if CJ is replaced now, and we win some games, then we could end up in no-mans land with the 8-12 pick.

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1 hour ago, kinot-2 said:

Problem is, that if CJ is replaced now, and we win some games, then we could end up in no-mans land with the 8-12 pick.

I just read a little tidbit that I thought I would share and this seemed like the best spot to post it. The last t8me the Habs missed the playoffs 3 years in a row guess who the coach was! None other than our own Claude Julien that's right CJ was the coach of the Habs in 1998-2000 coincidence I think not. His system doesn't work with the type of players we like to have.

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9 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I just read a little tidbit that I thought I would share and this seemed like the best spot to post it. The last t8me the Habs missed the playoffs 3 years in a row guess who the coach was! None other than our own Claude Julien that's right CJ was the coach of the Habs in 1998-2000 coincidence I think not. His system doesn't work with the type of players we like to have.

Coincidentally it was also the last time we missed the playoffs 4 times in 5 yearsn

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I dont think Claude Julien is the problem, we were one the top teams in the league last season and the start of this season playing  5 on 5, we lead in the league in shots on net. 

We really don't have anyone on the offensive side that scares any team.

And when you pay a player over 10 million you expect him to be your best player almost every night. Our player has been a non factor almost every night. 

We need a Byron who chips in 20goals and Droiun who gets you 50 plus  points and Armia who plays well all over the ice, we have success by committee. When you lose some of those players your elite players need to step up to another level, price went in the opposite direction. 

Yes i know we have holes so do most teams. We need a shakeup, not the coach, time to move on from Price....So the we have to build a better team....

I think if we move Price and Danault -- your looking at 2 prospects and probably 2 late first rounders.

Price just because its time, Danualt because i think you can get a good return and center its our most solid postition...now and into the future. 

 

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12 minutes ago, caperns61 said:

I dont think Claude Julien is the problem, we were one the top teams in the league last season and the start of this season playing  5 on 5, we lead in the league in shots on net. 

We really don't have anyone on the offensive side that scares any team.

And when you pay a player over 10 million you expect him to be your best player almost every night. Our player has been a non factor almost every night. 

We need a Byron who chips in 20goals and Droiun who gets you 50 plus  points and Armia who plays well all over the ice, we have success by committee. When you lose some of those players your elite players need to step up to another level, price went in the opposite direction. 

Yes i know we have holes so do most teams. We need a shakeup, not the coach, time to move on from Price....So the we have to build a better team....

I think if we move Price and Danault -- your looking at 2 prospects and probably 2 late first rounders.

Price just because its time, Danualt because i think you can get a good return and center its our most solid postition...now and into the future. 

 

Like I have said before Price makes no sense. If yo move Price what are you left with? 2 very shaky backups an AHL goalie and an unproven rookie who while projects as a very good starter could also be a bust just as easily. Just look at the 2 others in our system who were supposed to take over for Price. Lindgren is barely a backup and McNiven hasn't even shown he can play in the AHL. You have to wait until Primeau probes he can be a starter before you move your starter. Also Julien is part of the problem his defense first system is built for bigger heavier teams like the Bruins and Blues not the Habs.

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