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Claude Julien: to return in 2020-21

170 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

Like I have said before Price makes no sense. If yo move Price what are you left with? 2 very shaky backups an AHL goalie and an unproven rookie who while projects as a very good starter could also be a bust just as easily. Just look at the 2 others in our system who were supposed to take over for Price. Lindgren is barely a backup and McNiven hasn't even shown he can play in the AHL. You have to wait until Primeau probes he can be a starter before you move your starter. Also Julien is part of the problem his defense first system is built for bigger heavier teams like the Bruins and Blues not the Habs.

I am not sure why you would think defense first???

When we lead the league in shots on net? Thats not a defense first team, when we have been one of the best teams in the league 5 on 5 when healthy, thats not a  defense firs team.. We have tried to be over the last 10 games because of all the injuries and the play of price but you are right we are not built to play that way. We just dont have the scoring right now or the goaltending to play any other way....

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4 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Like I have said before Price makes no sense. If yo move Price what are you left with? 2 very shaky backups an AHL goalie and an unproven rookie who while projects as a very good starter could also be a bust just as easily. Just look at the 2 others in our system who were supposed to take over for Price. Lindgren is barely a backup and McNiven hasn't even shown he can play in the AHL. You have to wait until Primeau probes he can be a starter before you move your starter. Also Julien is part of the problem his defense first system is built for bigger heavier teams like the Bruins and Blues not the Habs.

There's probably no team out there that doesnt expect you to take their starter as part of the return for Price.  So you're most likely getting a guy who can step in and at least give you league-average goaltending. Thats not the issue.

I think its moot because i believe MB looks at price and weber as untouchable but if the right deal came along, id do it yes. 

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5 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Also Julien is part of the problem his defense first system is built for bigger heavier teams like the Bruins and Blues not the Habs.

We're playing a totally different system than the Bruins or Blues, Julien has adapted and deliberately emphasized quickness, transition, forecheck, and neutral zone pressure when changing his approach back at the beginning of last season. That's not a defensive-first system like he's used in the past and it's one of the main reasons we actually were somewhat competitive, got close to making the playoffs, and played entertaining, uptempo, high-event hockey with an almost identical roster last season.

Edited by ChiLla
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10 hours ago, ChiLla said:

We're playing a totally different system than the Bruins or Blues, Julien has adapted and deliberately emphasized quickness, transition, forecheck, and neutral zone pressure when changing his approach back at the beginning of last season. That's not a defensive-first system like he's used in the past and it's one of the main reasons we actually were somewhat competitive, got close to making the playoffs, and played entertaining, uptempo, high-event hockey with an almost identical roster last season.

No we were playing a different system at the start of the year when we were successful but around mid Dec we started trying to protect 1 goal leads and not using the speed and cycle games as much. That is a defense first mentality and I think maybe the change was CJ's reaction to losing Drouin, Armia and Byron but it was the wrong reaction. Since the new year started it seems like CJ has switched back to the speed game cause we have played well enough to win most games just haven't had the outcomes we desire.  I have said that I want CJ gone mostly for his personnel choices but I also wouldn't be opposed to keeping both CJ and MB in their roles for 1 more year cause I really like most of this roster and would like to see what we can do when healthy and with 2 or 3 key upgrades. 1 top six goal scoring forward, 1 top pairing D man and a decent backup and we would be pretty deadly.

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26 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I mean I get Julien benching Domi for that bonehead penatly ... but I also think if your intention is to make the playoffs and you get a PP, you unbench him for that at least.    Domi would be motivated to try and get the goal back you'd think.     But, oh well ... the more we lose the better, increase our odds of lottery pick.

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On 1/11/2020 at 10:01 PM, ChiLla said:

We're playing a totally different system than the Bruins or Blues, Julien has adapted and deliberately emphasized quickness, transition, forecheck, and neutral zone pressure when changing his approach back at the beginning of last season. That's not a defensive-first system like he's used in the past and it's one of the main reasons we actually were somewhat competitive, got close to making the playoffs, and played entertaining, uptempo, high-event hockey with an almost identical roster last season.

 

On 1/12/2020 at 8:18 AM, campabee82 said:

No we were playing a different system at the start of the year when we were successful but around mid Dec we started trying to protect 1 goal leads and not using the speed and cycle games as much. That is a defense first mentality and I think maybe the change was CJ's reaction to losing Drouin, Armia and Byron but it was the wrong reaction. Since the new year started it seems like CJ has switched back to the speed game cause we have played well enough to win most games just haven't had the outcomes we desire.  I have said that I want CJ gone mostly for his personnel choices but I also wouldn't be opposed to keeping both CJ and MB in their roles for 1 more year cause I really like most of this roster and would like to see what we can do when healthy and with 2 or 3 key upgrades. 1 top six goal scoring forward, 1 top pairing D man and a decent backup and we would be pretty deadly.

Yeah Julien's system here is considerably different from what he had in boston - even different from what he had here when he started.  The problem - and the reason the system has changed in the last little bit is injuries.   If you have one line with Domi & Suzuki, one like with gallagher and tatar and one like with JK and Drouin, you can play things quite a bit differently because you have threats on every line.   Weal, Cousiins and Peca dont conjure the same concerns for the other teams. 

Considering the amount of quality players we've had out, its actually almost surprising the lines have looked as good as they have.   While i wouldnt be shocked to see Julien fired as a PR move, I dont think any of this is really on him.  Sure he's made decisions i dont agree with but ultimately would any other coach have done more with this roster? I personally dont think so. 

13 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

I mean I get Julien benching Domi for that bonehead penatly ... but I also think if your intention is to make the playoffs and you get a PP, you unbench him for that at least.    Domi would be motivated to try and get the goal back you'd think.     But, oh well ... the more we lose the better, increase our odds of lottery pick.

Yeah, i agree.  The thing is, Domi is a grown man. He knows the penalty was bone-headed.  Benching him probably wont have much affect on him doing it again or not - his game is right on the edge so these things will happen from time to time.  He's done much better at limiting the stupid calls so i think it would have made sense for Julien to have eased off on the punishment personally.   Still dont think we would have won though.  Too many miscues from the whole team, all night. Which is too bad, they just seemed to be getting their confidence back after the calgary game. 

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6 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Yeah, i agree.  The thing is, Domi is a grown man. He knows the penalty was bone-headed.  Benching him probably wont have much affect on him doing it again or not - his game is right on the edge so these things will happen from time to time.  He's done much better at limiting the stupid calls so i think it would have made sense for Julien to have eased off on the punishment personally.   Still dont think we would have won though.  Too many miscues from the whole team, all night. Which is too bad, they just seemed to be getting their confidence back after the calgary game. 

You could see it in the fans online when CJ confirmed Lindgren would start that we were going to lose. For me thats what set the whole thing started spiraling we needed points, Price was rested, Price was hot and we have the by week coming Price should have started all 3 games. 

Edited by campabee82
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53 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

You could see it in the fans online when CJ confirmed Lindgren would start that we were going to lose. For me thats what set the whole thing started spiraling we needed points, Price was rested, Price was hot and we have the by week coming Price should have started all 3 games. 

Charlie’s gone at the end of the year or very slim chance that he gets traded for a negligible draft pick near the deadline. 
I don’t mind the occasional start by him as a means to relieving pressure on Price (even though Price is rested) - it’s a last ditch opportunity to prove Charlie should stay/showcase even as I contradict myself by saying he’s had sufficient opportunities in the ahl 
 

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

You could see it in the fans online when CJ confirmed Lindgren would start that we were going to lose. For me thats what set the whole thing started spiraling we needed points, Price was rested, Price was hot and we have the by week coming Price should have started all 3 games. 

hrm. Maybe MB and CJ are planning the tank... ?  

Will be very interesting to see if anyone of note gets traded in the next few weeks.

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4 hours ago, maas_art said:

hrm. Maybe MB and CJ are planning the tank... ?  

Will be very interesting to see if anyone of note gets traded in the next few weeks.

Several reporters noted yesterday that Julien's mood was different, like he expected something big to happen soon. Many people in the media expect that over the All-Star break there will either be a trade or a firing.

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I wonder if CJ lost the room. 

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24 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Several reporters noted yesterday that Julien's mood was different, like he expected something big to happen soon. Many people in the media expect that over the All-Star break there will either be a trade or a firing.

If thats true (that he was acting differently) then I almost feel like he and MB are considering a tank.    I mean there are really only a few options:  a big trade (why would he act differently)  a firing (why would he know about it?) or a tanking. 

Tanking is something that really has to be done at management level, as we've discussed before. You cant ask players to go out & play poorly and you cant really even ask the coach to make moves that will hurt the team - unless, its things like "we'll play the backup tonight" or "we'll give this guy less ice time."   etc. 

I could see a mandate like that weighing heavily on Julien - especially since he's been in situations before with the Bruins where they were counted out & then they went on at tear to end the year & made the playoffs.  Will be interesting to see what happens in the next few weeks. 

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31 minutes ago, maas_art said:

If thats true (that he was acting differently) then I almost feel like he and MB are considering a tank.    I mean there are really only a few options:  a big trade (why would he act differently)  a firing (why would he know about it?) or a tanking. 

Tanking is something that really has to be done at management level, as we've discussed before. You cant ask players to go out & play poorly and you cant really even ask the coach to make moves that will hurt the team - unless, its things like "we'll play the backup tonight" or "we'll give this guy less ice time."   etc. 

I could see a mandate like that weighing heavily on Julien - especially since he's been in situations before with the Bruins where they were counted out & then they went on at tear to end the year & made the playoffs.  Will be interesting to see what happens in the next few weeks. 

Yeah, not really sure what it means. It could just be that Julien is dejected by how badly everything has gone or it could mean he was given an ultimatum by Bergevin (i.e. win 3 of the 4 games before the ASG or else you're gone) or it could mean Bergevin told him he plans on trading away core players... really seems like something's going to hit the fan soon, and it should. I don't think firing Julien is the answer, but I think Bergevin needs to go or at the very least, we need to trade the likes of Weber, Petry, and Tatar...

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TVA Sports ran a poll on their site and 54% of fans wanted to see Gallant replace Julien. 

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Worked out in the end but I can think of 4 or 5 guys i'd use in the SO over Cousins  CJ sure likes to keep us on the edge of our seats. Using KOVY in the last couple minutes in a defensive situation with the game still on the line was another head shaker. 

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19 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

Worked out in the end but I can think of 4 or 5 guys i'd use in the SO over Cousins  CJ sure likes to keep us on the edge of our seats. Using KOVY in the last couple minutes in a defensive situation with the game still on the line was another head shaker. 

Agreed... not the best move IMHO.

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1 hour ago, H_T_L said:

Worked out in the end but I can think of 4 or 5 guys i'd use in the SO over Cousins  CJ sure likes to keep us on the edge of our seats. Using KOVY in the last couple minutes in a defensive situation with the game still on the line was another head shaker. 

He has been doing this type of thing all year. How many times when we are down by a goal have you seen Weal, Cousins, Thompson, Wiese, Peca or Hudon on the ice in the last 10 minutes of the 3rd? How many times when we were up by a goal with less than 3 to go has Lehkonen, Danault, Thompson, Suzuki, Armia, Weber, Petry, Chiarot been on the bench when we are trying to protect a lead. CJ likes to roll 4 lines no matter the situation. You can't have your worst defensive players on the ice when protecting a lead or your best offensive players on the bench when you need a goal. Not to even mention the PP and PK selections or when he chooses to play Lindgren over Price when Price is hot and has had 2 days rest while the flyers are on the second half of a back to back. It seems like CJ is either trying to get fired or trying to show MB how bad the team really is. Either way that's not the way to coach a hockey club.

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15 hours ago, H_T_L said:

Worked out in the end but I can think of 4 or 5 guys i'd use in the SO over Cousins  CJ sure likes to keep us on the edge of our seats. Using KOVY in the last couple minutes in a defensive situation with the game still on the line was another head shaker. 

The Cousins thing i can live with, for a few reasons:  1) he's actually got decent S/O stats over his career. I think his percentage is actually only behind Drouin and Byron on our roster.  2) He had the hot hand.  9 out of 10 coaches will put a player who just scored 2 goals in for the shootout  3) someone mentioned that in the team's practice shoot outs, Cousins was one of the best, so while it may seem weird to us, i can see why CJ chose to do it.

The Kovy thing in the last 2 minutes i dont get (i understand the Danault line always gets that sort of assignment but then put Suzuki at RW or Thompson!)  and i also am still baffled Cousins is on the PP.  At least Weal is off i guess. 

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Francois Gagnon of RDS busy posting on twitter how the Habs coach still has to be French (after a poster asked him in French if we could finally get an Anglophone coach)... Gagnon is busy getting schooled by a lot of French-speaking posters who are telling him they want a winner and a more competitive team rather than just having a French coach, but he's sticking to his guns and defending his point of view without much success. Gagnon is telling everyone that we should be okay with a French coach because Julien has won a Cup before and Therrien "had success." He's refusing to admit that allowing for non-French coaches broadens your pool of candidates and he's refusing to admit that the Habs' French-only policy for the past few decades has brought nothing.

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Business run to support media isn’t a recipe for success in sports 

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9 minutes ago, booboo_mtl said:

Business run to support media isn’t a recipe for success in sports 

Right. Molson has made it clear he'll pansy to the French media. Gagnon is part of the problem saying "the coach needs to be able to speak to all fans." Why? What is the coach saying to fans that can't be achieved by a translator or by the media translating for them?

Gagnon went on to state that you couldn't imagine a unilingual Francophone coach working in Toronto, so you shouldn't expect an Anglo to work here. What a backwards argument. As many French commenters responded to him, the players for the most part speak English and most do not speak French. A coach needs to be able to communicate directly with his players, that's something that actually makes a difference on gameplay. Being able to speak to fans, while nice, doesn't impact the success of the team. So to make comments like Gagnon is making is ignorant and sets the state of the team back in favor of politics. Can't stand media people like this...

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6 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Right. Molson has made it clear he'll pansy to the French media. Gagnon is part of the problem saying "the coach needs to be able to speak to all fans." Why? What is the coach saying to fans that can't be achieved by a translator or by the media translating for them?

Gagnon went on to state that you couldn't imagine a unilingual Francophone coach working in Toronto, so you shouldn't expect an Anglo to work here. What a backwards argument. As many French commenters responded to him, the players for the most part speak English and most do not speak French. A coach needs to be able to communicate directly with his players, that's something that actually makes a difference on gameplay. Being able to speak to fans, while nice, doesn't impact the success of the team. So to make comments like Gagnon is making is ignorant and sets the state of the team back in favor of politics. Can't stand media people like this...

So typical, Gagnon has always been a tool and blinded by his view on language/politics IMO. Silly argument, why would Toronto even consider hiring a unilingual Francophone coach when that language isn't even a factor in daily life? That makes literally zero sense. Also, the vast majority of American, Euro, and even Canadian players don't speak French and don't really care about learning it when they get here, so English is the locker room language anyway. Montreal is the only team in the NHL where the whole language thing is even an issue, and this is 2020 and not 1980 or 1995, I thought people had moved on but some things never change I suppose.

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2 hours ago, ChiLla said:

So typical, Gagnon has always been a tool and blinded by his view on language/politics IMO. Silly argument, why would Toronto even consider hiring a unilingual Francophone coach when that language isn't even a factor in daily life? That makes literally zero sense. Also, the vast majority of American, Euro, and even Canadian players don't speak French and don't really care about learning it when they get here, so English is the locker room language anyway. Montreal is the only team in the NHL where the whole language thing is even an issue, and this is 2020 and not 1980 or 1995, I thought people had moved on but some things never change I suppose.

Exactly. But this is the problem. You have a faction of the French media, like Gagnon and Rejean Tremblay and Benoit Brunet and so on who turn this into language politics and make it sound like any attempt at hiring an anglophone coach is a slight against Francophone people. But then you get dozens of French posters replying to Gagnon saying "we don't care, we want to win." I absolutely believe that real fans of the team couldn't give a care who the coach is as long as he's good at his job. One poster brought up Felipe Alou as the coach of the Expos and talked about how he did a great job for a long time and was never able to speak to Francophones directly. In fact, almost every coach in the history of the Expos and Alouettes has been Anglophone or otherwise without being able to speak French. The captain of the Habs speaks to the media just as often as the coach, and no one has made as much of a stink over Koivu, Pacioretty, or Weber. And even the coaching thing wasn't a big issue with the Habs until about the past 10 years, when certain people made a stink about Cunneyworth and then Serge Savard was put in charge of the GM search and told Molson that he couldn't hire a non-Francophone because it would be an affront to French-Quebecers. Molson is clearly too scared to ruffle feathers in this, so instead we've set the team back by following this policy.

Again, personally, I have no issue with the Julien hiring. He's a guy with a proven track record who might actually have been the best guy available. But I absolutely do not believe Therrien or Lefebvre were the best candidates for their jobs, and their destruction of our development is still hurting us now. So the selfishness and ignorance of people like Gagnon and Savard and so on is without a doubt hurting this team and it's a sad state of affairs that he would go around posting this now. Then again, Gagnon is a Nordiques/Sens fan who has always taken a bit of an anti-Habs angle on things and his views on the Habs always seem to be biased against them... for example, last night, he also posted that he didn't think Domi plus Poehling would be enough value to give to Minnesota to get Dumba. Personally, I wouldn't make that trade as the Habs, regardless of what Minnesota would or would not do, but he continually under-values Habs' players as well and continually goes against the Habs in penalty assessments while other media (even non-Habs fans from English sports networks) are saying things in our favor. He's anti-Hab and he's anti-Habs success at the expense of language.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Exactly. But this is the problem. You have a faction of the French media, like Gagnon and Rejean Tremblay and Benoit Brunet and so on who turn this into language politics and make it sound like any attempt at hiring an anglophone coach is a slight against Francophone people. But then you get dozens of French posters replying to Gagnon saying "we don't care, we want to win." I absolutely believe that real fans of the team couldn't give a care who the coach is as long as he's good at his job. One poster brought up Felipe Alou as the coach of the Expos and talked about how he did a great job for a long time and was never able to speak to Francophones directly. In fact, almost every coach in the history of the Expos and Alouettes has been Anglophone or otherwise without being able to speak French. The captain of the Habs speaks to the media just as often as the coach, and no one has made as much of a stink over Koivu, Pacioretty, or Weber. And even the coaching thing wasn't a big issue with the Habs until about the past 10 years, when certain people made a stink about Cunneyworth and then Serge Savard was put in charge of the GM search and told Molson that he couldn't hire a non-Francophone because it would be an affront to French-Quebecers. Molson is clearly too scared to ruffle feathers in this, so instead we've set the team back by following this policy.

Again, personally, I have no issue with the Julien hiring. He's a guy with a proven track record who might actually have been the best guy available. But I absolutely do not believe Therrien or Lefebvre were the best candidates for their jobs, and their destruction of our development is still hurting us now. So the selfishness and ignorance of people like Gagnon and Savard and so on is without a doubt hurting this team and it's a sad state of affairs that he would go around posting this now. Then again, Gagnon is a Nordiques/Sens fan who has always taken a bit of an anti-Habs angle on things and his views on the Habs always seem to be biased against them... for example, last night, he also posted that he didn't think Domi plus Poehling would be enough value to give to Minnesota to get Dumba. Personally, I wouldn't make that trade as the Habs, regardless of what Minnesota would or would not do, but he continually under-values Habs' players as well and continually goes against the Habs in penalty assessments while other media (even non-Habs fans from English sports networks) are saying things in our favor. He's anti-Hab and he's anti-Habs success at the expense of language.

That's the funny thing, most of the guys leading that self-righteous fight for the preservation of the French language in hockey aren't even from Montreal and didn't grow up supporting the Habs. The city offers a truly bilingual environment as opposed to the rest of the province (with extremes at both ends of the spectrum, i.e. people only speaking one language and refusing to speak the other). Anyway, like you said, a lot of those guys used to be Nordiques fans and probably still feel cheated. After they lost their team, they simply moved on to the 'next best thing', i.e. the only hockey team in the province of Quebec. Even though they always considered the Habs the Anglophone team of Quebec while the Nordiques were still around, in their view it's now the Habs' responsibility to uphold the French language flag. It's completely absurd but it is what it is. Politics.

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