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ramcharger440

Julien

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Is he just to stuck in the old NHL? is it time for him to go? i just can't understand some of his lineup choices! we go from a fast paced modern team back to the slugs that stank out the rink last year, why? play the young guys win or lose see what they really have to offer. we are doing nothing this year so lets prep for the future and drop the dead weight even if it is the coach.

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He's had me shaking my head too many times this season for my liking. He hasn't reached MT status yet but man oh man,,, what are you thinking out there dressing a D like the Vegas game? No wonder our goaltenders are struggling. Likely suffering from nightmares or PTSD

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Ditto... much better system-wise than Therrien and Julien by all accounts from the media is a nice guy and doesn't have the bad attitude Therrien displayed. But in terms of personnel decisions, Julien is right down there with Therrien in terms of his love of old-school grit. He hated Galchenyuk without reason, he seems to pile on Hudon quite a bit too, he's so-so on Mete, and yet he loves Deslauriers and Alzner and Benn and Schlemko and Shaw. Not quite understandable. Gotta wonder if we'd be better off just putting Ducharme in charge.

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We'll need to make a call on D soon with the extra bodies now that Schlemko is healthy. Any bets it's Quillet who gets dumped?:rolleyes:

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I think CJ is just trying to match the size of the western conference teams, he shouldn't try that's not our game but that's what I think his reasoning is hopefully he wakes up after this game and sees we can't do that next game. We got lucky tonight but Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver will tear us apart if he plays that D again

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11 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Ditto... much better system-wise than Therrien and Julien by all accounts from the media is a nice guy and doesn't have the bad attitude Therrien displayed. But in terms of personnel decisions, Julien is right down there with Therrien in terms of his love of old-school grit. He hated Galchenyuk without reason, he seems to pile on Hudon quite a bit too, he's so-so on Mete, and yet he loves Deslauriers and Alzner and Benn and Schlemko and Shaw. Not quite understandable. Gotta wonder if we'd be better off just putting Ducharme in charge.

System wise its not even close (did MT even have a system?) but personnel is definitely questionable.  Do you think MB is forcing his hand at all?

 

Speaking of Schlemko i missed most of the game. How did he look? I saw enough to see Alzner be horrible but didnt notice Schlemko too much either way. 

 

6 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

We'll need to make a call on D soon with the extra bodies now that Schlemko is healthy. Any bets it's Quillet who gets dumped?:rolleyes:

I have a feeling that one of Mete or Juulsen will got to the minors since they are not waiver eligible.

 

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1 minute ago, maas_art said:

System wise its not even close (did MT even have a system?) but personnel is definitely questionable.  Do you think MB is forcing his hand at all?

 

Speaking of Schlemko i missed most of the game. How did he look? I saw enough to see Alzner be horrible but didnt notice Schlemko too much either way. 

 

I have a feeling that one of Mete or Juulsen will got to the minors since they are not waiver eligible.

 

I don't think it's just MB... Julien is enough of a veteran coach, he's well-respected around the league, and he's won a Cup. If he had a serious problem with something, he could say it. I think he really likes Schlemko. I think he doesn't see the downside to Benn in the way we do. And even though he seems to have figured out Alzner needs to be limited, I don't think he sees Alzner as being that far behind Mete or Ouellet.

In terms of what to do with the crowded blue line, I also worry about Mete or Juulsen going down for a bit, which would be a setback to either one of their developments. Mete is the more likely loser here, since Juulsen is a righty. But I also wonder about trading Benn or Schlemko. Alzner's contract isn't tradeable really, but Benn has been getting 1st pairing minutes and propped up by Petry. His value isn't going to get much better and he's on a friendly contract.

 

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't think it's just MB... Julien is enough of a veteran coach, he's well-respected around the league, and he's won a Cup. If he had a serious problem with something, he could say it. I think he really likes Schlemko. I think he doesn't see the downside to Benn in the way we do. And even though he seems to have figured out Alzner needs to be limited, I don't think he sees Alzner as being that far behind Mete or Ouellet.

In terms of what to do with the crowded blue line, I also worry about Mete or Juulsen going down for a bit, which would be a setback to either one of their developments. Mete is the more likely loser here, since Juulsen is a righty. But I also wonder about trading Benn or Schlemko. Alzner's contract isn't tradeable really, but Benn has been getting 1st pairing minutes and propped up by Petry. His value isn't going to get much better and he's on a friendly contract.

 

Schlemko actually was good early this year so may just need a couple of games but didn't think was bad like Alzner. I actually wasn't surprised at all to see Mete sit. I love his skating and jumping into the play , but that said the last few games he has been awful on defense which is actually what comes first for a defenseman. I'm sure CJ see's it the same way also defense then the offense. I hope Mete doesn't sit long but I actually think his was needed. Juulsen maybe he's still nursing a nagging injury?

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I think Mete and Juulsen need some nights off because of their youth and to get their game back from time to time.  Benn is clearly getting exposed more against the oppositions top lines and he may be the best person in a bad situation. We need to get Weber back as it doesn't appear any of the prospects in Laval are quite ready yet.

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12 hours ago, Habs=stanleycup said:

CJ is doing better than his predecessor IMO.

I agree 100% but is that enough? shouldn't we be looking for the best coach possible for the team we have? i look at our forwards this year and it is not a bad group sure we need 1-2 players on D but when the coach makes the decision to play our best players instead of the dead weight we are not too bad on D either not great but when you put Alzner Benn Shlemko out there paired with the slowest least skilled fourth line we can possibly ice i have to wonder what is going through his head?

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1 hour ago, Habberwacky said:

I think Mete and Juulsen need some nights off because of their youth and to get their game back from time to time.  Benn is clearly getting exposed more against the oppositions top lines and he may be the best person in a bad situation. We need to get Weber back as it doesn't appear any of the prospects in Laval are quite ready yet.

Mete and Juulsen are definitely still on the upwards swing of the learning curve. But you look around the league and a lot of teams are using and relying on youth to play big minutes. Look at Boston in recent years with Krug and McAvoy and Carlo on defence. Tampa's got a great roster, but they haven't been afraid to throw Sergachev into the mix as a regular. You can go down the line, and most teams don't have 5-6 veterans that they can play every night. So the question becomes whether we have enough veterans to allow Mete and Juulsen to get regular breaks, and I'm not sure we do.

So you look at our D corps... we see Benn and Ouellet and Schlemko and talk about how all three guys really shouldn't be playing above the 3rd pairing. We talk about Alzner and how he isn't good enough to play in the NHL any more. So if you remove Mete and Juulsen from time to time, you're essentially and unfortunately left with just two D men whom you can rely on for a regular shift: Petry and Reilly. And both of those guys have struggled in the past two weeks, both probably in large part because they've been asked to do tough jobs AND make up for playing with incapable partners. We cannot go on with Benn on the top pairing. We cannot go on with Alzner in the line-up anywhere. The top 4 until Weber is back undoubtedly has to be Petry, Reilly, Mete, and Juulsen in some order. And then Ouellet with one of Benn and Schlemko on the 3rd pairing. It's not good, but it's the best we can do for now. To do anything else seems crazy.

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5 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

I agree 100% but is that enough? shouldn't we be looking for the best coach possible for the team we have? i look at our forwards this year and it is not a bad group sure we need 1-2 players on D but when the coach makes the decision to play our best players instead of the dead weight we are not too bad on D either not great but when you put Alzner Benn Shlemko out there paired with the slowest least skilled fourth line we can possibly ice i have to wonder what is going through his head?

Agreed.

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7 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Mete and Juulsen are definitely still on the upwards swing of the learning curve. But you look around the league and a lot of teams are using and relying on youth to play big minutes. Look at Boston in recent years with Krug and McAvoy and Carlo on defence. Tampa's got a great roster, but they haven't been afraid to throw Sergachev into the mix as a regular. You can go down the line, and most teams don't have 5-6 veterans that they can play every night. So the question becomes whether we have enough veterans to allow Mete and Juulsen to get regular breaks, and I'm not sure we do.

So you look at our D corps... we see Benn and Ouellet and Schlemko and talk about how all three guys really shouldn't be playing above the 3rd pairing. We talk about Alzner and how he isn't good enough to play in the NHL any more. So if you remove Mete and Juulsen from time to time, you're essentially and unfortunately left with just two D men whom you can rely on for a regular shift: Petry and Reilly. And both of those guys have struggled in the past two weeks, both probably in large part because they've been asked to do tough jobs AND make up for playing with incapable partners. We cannot go on with Benn on the top pairing. We cannot go on with Alzner in the line-up anywhere. The top 4 until Weber is back undoubtedly has to be Petry, Reilly, Mete, and Juulsen in some order. And then Ouellet with one of Benn and Schlemko on the 3rd pairing. It's not good, but it's the best we can do for now. To do anything else seems crazy.

The side effects of this are that  Carey goes a little crazier, and loses a little more confidence. but we seem to be able to compensate a little this year with the improved offense.  Nilan made a good pint the other day. Wait did I just say that? He blamed the defense and the new fast paced system for leaving Carey blowing in the wind but had the attitude that things will settle down after 40 games as the players adjust. The fans on the other hand will be lucky to give Carey 2 more games and there in lies a bigger problem. With all the disorganised zone coverages and 2 on 1's we have given up lately I have a hard time faulting Carey too much. If he can get himself a Grant Fuhr hat it may help as not since the Oilers have I seen a team give up so many odd man rushes.

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4 hours ago, Habberwacky said:

The side effects of this are that  Carey goes a little crazier, and loses a little more confidence. but we seem to be able to compensate a little this year with the improved offense.  Nilan made a good pint the other day. Wait did I just say that? He blamed the defense and the new fast paced system for leaving Carey blowing in the wind but had the attitude that things will settle down after 40 games as the players adjust. The fans on the other hand will be lucky to give Carey 2 more games and there in lies a bigger problem. With all the disorganised zone coverages and 2 on 1's we have given up lately I have a hard time faulting Carey too much. If he can get himself a Grant Fuhr hat it may help as not since the Oilers have I seen a team give up so many odd man rushes.

As bad as the defence has been, it's hard to blame all of Price's misgivings on the defence. If you look at goalies who have played more than 200 minutes this season, Price is 37th of 50 goalies in terms of the rate at which he's faced high-risk shots against (which is a good number for team defence). He's mid-pack (17th highest) for rush attempts against and near the top of the league in terms of rebound attempts against (45th, or seen another way, 6th best). Where he's fallen off is his save percentage, which is a lot lower than his career average... at 5v5, he's been 92-94% every single year of his career, up until last season when he fell to 91.3% and this season at 90.4%. His save percentage on the PK is actually in range with some of his best years, so that's not the issue. He's not being challenged any more than he was in past years, he's simply letting in a higher percentage of shots.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

As bad as the defence has been, it's hard to blame all of Price's misgivings on the defence. If you look at goalies who have played more than 200 minutes this season, Price is 37th of 50 goalies in terms of the rate at which he's faced high-risk shots against (which is a good number for team defence). He's mid-pack (17th highest) for rush attempts against and near the top of the league in terms of rebound attempts against (45th, or seen another way, 6th best). Where he's fallen off is his save percentage, which is a lot lower than his career average... at 5v5, he's been 92-94% every single year of his career, up until last season when he fell to 91.3% and this season at 90.4%. His save percentage on the PK is actually in range with some of his best years, so that's not the issue. He's not being challenged any more than he was in past years, he's simply letting in a higher percentage of shots.

How come I am always seeing the Carey is the problem when he is in net and allows more than 4 goal. However when Neimi is in net and allows more than 4 goals it's the D's fault and Neimi played amazingly. It's a rhetorical question really, the answer is simple we just expect more of Carey even when the D plays just as horrible or worse. I say if your going to blame Carey for all goals scored on him, you have to be willing blame Neimi for all goals scored on him. If it's going to be a double standard then those who blame one and not the other are hippocrates. The same D, the same results, the same blame period.

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13 hours ago, Habberwacky said:

The side effects of this are that  Carey goes a little crazier, and loses a little more confidence. but we seem to be able to compensate a little this year with the improved offense.  Nilan made a good pint the other day. Wait did I just say that? He blamed the defense and the new fast paced system for leaving Carey blowing in the wind but had the attitude that things will settle down after 40 games as the players adjust. The fans on the other hand will be lucky to give Carey 2 more games and there in lies a bigger problem. With all the disorganised zone coverages and 2 on 1's we have given up lately I have a hard time faulting Carey too much. If he can get himself a Grant Fuhr hat it may help as not since the Oilers have I seen a team give up so many odd man rushes.

I noticed that in the Gretzky era as well. Fortunately, Fuhr was there for them. IMHO, Fuhr is one of the most underrated goalies in NHL history. I have always liked him and his play.

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8 hours ago, campabee82 said:

How come I am always seeing the Carey is the problem when he is in net and allows more than 4 goal. However when Neimi is in net and allows more than 4 goals it's the D's fault and Neimi played amazingly. It's a rhetorical question really, the answer is simple we just expect more of Carey even when the D plays just as horrible or worse. I say if your going to blame Carey for all goals scored on him, you have to be willing blame Neimi for all goals scored on him. If it's going to be a double standard then those who blame one and not the other are hippocrates. The same D, the same results, the same blame period.

You're right. Niemi's numbers are just as bad as Carey's, and for the most part, I think Niemi has played pretty poorly this year too. However, when you come with a 10+M cap hit long-term, you had better deliver. The team has made an investment in Carey, and it's up to Price to do the work to earn what he's being paid. Niemi is what he is: he's a back-up goalie in his mid-30's. Price is supposed to be better than this, so I have no issue with his being held to a higher standard.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

You're right. Niemi's numbers are just as bad as Carey's, and for the most part, I think Niemi has played pretty poorly this year too. However, when you come with a 10+M cap hit long-term, you had better deliver. The team has made an investment in Carey, and it's up to Price to do the work to earn what he's being paid. Niemi is what he is: he's a back-up goalie in his mid-30's. Price is supposed to be better than this, so I have no issue with his being held to a higher standard.

This.

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2 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

You're right. Niemi's numbers are just as bad as Carey's, and for the most part, I think Niemi has played pretty poorly this year too. However, when you come with a 10+M cap hit long-term, you had better deliver. The team has made an investment in Carey, and it's up to Price to do the work to earn what he's being paid. Niemi is what he is: he's a back-up goalie in his mid-30's. Price is supposed to be better than this, so I have no issue with his being held to a higher standard.

That's essentially what I said we expect more from Carey, but let's look around the league. Howard, Murray, Brobrovski, Quick, Talbot, Gibson and Bishop all great goalies considered to be elite in some circles but still not performing to their potential this year. I don't know what's going on and I don't imagine that one is related to the other but it sort of makes you wonder could there be something more going on around the league related to the elite goaltenders. Carey knows Carey and if he says it's in his head I tend to believe him so if it's in his head and he thinks he can work it out and get back to the Carey Price we all know and love then I tend to believe him cause he owns his issues and doesn't blame others, but I don't think our D is helping him gain confidence.

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You can't put any blame on the goalies, for the most part they are making the initial save but no one seems to be covering the trailing players nor clearing away the rebounds.  CJ is just teaching the team to play old school D for a new style game and it's not working.  Just another MB failure yet again.  I would love to see CJ and MB both sent packing before Christmas.  And for the love of god don't dress Deslauriers again this year

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45 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

That's essentially what I said we expect more from Carey, but let's look around the league. Howard, Murray, Brobrovski, Quick, Talbot, Gibson and Bishop all great goalies considered to be elite in some circles but still not performing to their potential this year. I don't know what's going on and I don't imagine that one is related to the other but it sort of makes you wonder could there be something more going on around the league related to the elite goaltenders. Carey knows Carey and if he says it's in his head I tend to believe him so if it's in his head and he thinks he can work it out and get back to the Carey Price we all know and love then I tend to believe him cause he owns his issues and doesn't blame others, but I don't think our D is helping him gain confidence.

No doubt that around the league, the concept of a franchise goalie who's going to carry you for more than a decade has dwindled. You have Price you have Lundqvist with the Rangers, Quick with LA, Luongo with Vancouver and to some degree with Florida, and maybe that's it. Yes, there are other solid goalies who have been with the same team for a few years, like Holtby in Washington or Bobrovsky in Columbus or so on, but are those guys really carrying the team?

As you said, lots of goalies have had struggles, and part of that comes down to the game just being faster and more offensively-minded than it was a decade ago. But nevertheless, you'd expect Price to deliver a save percentage at 5v5 and a high-danger save percentage better than league average, and he hasn't done that.

 

10 minutes ago, 26NCounting said:

You can't put any blame on the goalies, for the most part they are making the initial save but no one seems to be covering the trailing players nor clearing away the rebounds.  CJ is just teaching the team to play old school D for a new style game and it's not working.  Just another MB failure yet again.  I would love to see CJ and MB both sent packing before Christmas.  And for the love of god don't dress Deslauriers again this year

I posted the stat yesterday I think, but Price is actually facing one of the lowest rebound attempts per 60 minutes of ice time in the league. No doubt the defence is horribly constructed and I too take issue with Julien and Bergevin's failures, but a lot of this is on Carey himself. And for the first 8-10 games or so, we rarely had Benn down the line-up, Alzner in the pressbox, and Schlemko on injured reserve, so it's only more recently the D corps has seen a drop-off in talent.

Yes, I too think we can fault Bergevin for not trading Price when he had the chance and for putting all his eggs in one basket, and I think we can fault Julien for sticking with first-pairing Benn and Alzner and Schlemko over the likes of Mete and Juulsen at times. But the numbers suggest that Price is not facing a lot of rebound chances and he's not up there in breakaways against either. He's simply stopping a lower percentage of pucks at 5v5, and that's been the difference.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

No doubt that around the league, the concept of a franchise goalie who's going to carry you for more than a decade has dwindled. You have Price you have Lundqvist with the Rangers, Quick with LA, Luongo with Vancouver and to some degree with Florida, and maybe that's it. Yes, there are other solid goalies who have been with the same team for a few years, like Holtby in Washington or Bobrovsky in Columbus or so on, but are those guys really carrying the team?

As you said, lots of goalies have had struggles, and part of that comes down to the game just being faster and more offensively-minded than it was a decade ago. But nevertheless, you'd expect Price to deliver a save percentage at 5v5 and a high-danger save percentage better than league average, and he hasn't done that.

 

I posted the stat yesterday I think, but Price is actually facing one of the lowest rebound attempts per 60 minutes of ice time in the league. No doubt the defence is horribly constructed and I too take issue with Julien and Bergevin's failures, but a lot of this is on Carey himself. And for the first 8-10 games or so, we rarely had Benn down the line-up, Alzner in the pressbox, and Schlemko on injured reserve, so it's only more recently the D corps has seen a drop-off in talent.

Yes, I too think we can fault Bergevin for not trading Price when he had the chance and for putting all his eggs in one basket, and I think we can fault Julien for sticking with first-pairing Benn and Alzner and Schlemko over the likes of Mete and Juulsen at times. But the numbers suggest that Price is not facing a lot of rebound chances and he's not up there in breakaways against either. He's simply stopping a lower percentage of pucks at 5v5, and that's been the difference.

 

 

But what that stat doesn't tell you is of the 5on5's he is facing How many goals were scored on a 2 on 1 cause of a giveaway or 3 on 1. Cause there have been a crap load of them against us this year and let's face it the goalie has to respect the shot and let the D take away the pass and our D has not done that at all this year. So that may be affecting his 5 on 5 stats too

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

 

I posted the stat yesterday I think, but Price is actually facing one of the lowest rebound attempts per 60 minutes of ice time in the league. No doubt the defence is horribly constructed and I too take issue with Julien and Bergevin's failures, but a lot of this is on Carey himself. And for the first 8-10 games or so, we rarely had Benn down the line-up, Alzner in the pressbox, and Schlemko on injured reserve, so it's only more recently the D corps has seen a drop-off in talent.

 

 

 

And it was only int his last 3-4 starts, since the D talent dropped off, that Carey has started to struggle again

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50 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

But what that stat doesn't tell you is of the 5on5's he is facing How many goals were scored on a 2 on 1 cause of a giveaway or 3 on 1. Cause there have been a crap load of them against us this year and let's face it the goalie has to respect the shot and let the D take away the pass and our D has not done that at all this year. So that may be affecting his 5 on 5 stats too

Like I said,

- Among goalies with at least 200 min played at 5v5, Price is 17th of 51 goalies in terms of most rushes against per 60. That's mid-pack

- Among goalies with at least 200 min plated at 5v5, Price is 46th of 51 goalies in terms of rebound attempts against per 60. He only faces on average 2.1 rebound attempts per 60 minutes of ice time. The guys facing the most rebounds lincude Braden Holtby (5.6 per 60), Craig Anderson (5.1 per 60), John Gibson (4.9 per 60), and Semyon Varlamov (4.6 per 60). All those guys face more than double the chances against by rebound than Carey has.

- He is 37th of 51 goalies in terms of the number of high-danger scoring chances against per 60.

 

So yeah, all those stats tell us exactly what we need to know... Carey is getting an average number of rushing attempts against him. He is getting very few rebound attempts against him. He is seeing a lower-than-average number of dangerous scoring chances against him. I'm by no means saying I like the play of our defence, but the numbers point to a lot of this being Carey's fault.

 

 

 

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