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On 7/12/2019 at 8:00 PM, habby67 said:

So sick of every summer hoping we have a chance of acquiring someone of significance.Blah..........

Such as?   For the most part UFA signings do not work out well for the team who signed them.    You're usually getting a guy who is older, had a career year they will never reproduce and is now tying up a roster spot and cap space you could use better.     I saw an article the other day that backed it up with stats, that showed that 9 out of 10 UFA signings are essentially a waste of cap space and the player never produces to the value of the contract.

The modern Salary Cap NHL requires you develop the majority of your talent through the draft, with a constant stream of talent to fill out your top 9, the occasional trade and perhaps a free agent.    Outside of John Tavares last summer, there has been nobody of "significance" as a UFA since the new CBA started in 2013.    Despite leafs signing John Tavares and creating cap problems for themsleves, they bowed out in the first round.

Think the oilers are happy with Lucic? Boston with Backes? Isles with Ladd?  Nucks with Ericksson?

Sure its easy in hindsight to call those 4 teams stupid for signing those guys to those contracts ... but at the time, they were all legit top 6 or 9 forwards that many teams pursued.

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Such as?   For the most part UFA signings do not work out well for the team who signed them.    You're usually getting a guy who is older, had a career year they will never reproduce and is now tying up a roster spot and cap space you could use better.     I saw an article the other day that backed it up with stats, that showed that 9 out of 10 UFA signings are essentially a waste of cap space and the player never produces to the value of the contract.

The modern Salary Cap NHL requires you develop the majority of your talent through the draft, with a constant stream of talent to fill out your top 9, the occasional trade and perhaps a free agent.    Outside of John Tavares last summer, there has been nobody of "significance" as a UFA since the new CBA started in 2013.    Despite leafs signing John Tavares and creating cap problems for themsleves, they bowed out in the first round.

Think the oilers are happy with Lucic? Boston with Backes? Isles with Ladd?  Nucks with Ericksson?

Sure its easy in hindsight to call those 4 teams stupid for signing those guys to those contracts ... but at the time, they were all legit top 6 or 9 forwards that many teams pursued.

I disagree if you don't do your homework and know your own team then yes the FA signing a don't always work out. However if you do know your team and what it needs and who would best fill that need then you do get the player and term you want and the value you seek. It's like anything else in the world if you know what you have and what you need you can get better but if you get what you want and not what you need you risk being burned.

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3 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Such as?   For the most part UFA signings do not work out well for the team who signed them.    You're usually getting a guy who is older, had a career year they will never reproduce and is now tying up a roster spot and cap space you could use better.     I saw an article the other day that backed it up with stats, that showed that 9 out of 10 UFA signings are essentially a waste of cap space and the player never produces to the value of the contract.

The modern Salary Cap NHL requires you develop the majority of your talent through the draft, with a constant stream of talent to fill out your top 9, the occasional trade and perhaps a free agent.    Outside of John Tavares last summer, there has been nobody of "significance" as a UFA since the new CBA started in 2013.    Despite leafs signing John Tavares and creating cap problems for themsleves, they bowed out in the first round.

Think the oilers are happy with Lucic? Boston with Backes? Isles with Ladd?  Nucks with Ericksson?

Sure its easy in hindsight to call those 4 teams stupid for signing those guys to those contracts ... but at the time, they were all legit top 6 or 9 forwards that many teams pursued.

I agree, no offence camp, but lets keep going in the right direction. I think we have arguably one of the best prospects pools in the league. Stay away from those big free agent signings. We already got burned by alzner. Lots of talent here to go the trade route for our needs and this is the brightest I've seen this teams future look in a long while.

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39 minutes ago, xxdocxx said:

I agree, no offence camp, but lets keep going in the right direction. I think we have arguably one of the best prospects pools in the league. Stay away from those big free agent signings. We already got burned by alzner. Lots of talent here to go the trade route for our needs and this is the brightest I've seen this teams future look in a long while.

I wasn't saying that you should just focus on FA. For sure you should have a steady stream of prospects but you also have to know your team and what their actual needs are and what is available to fill those needs before dipping into FA. I don't think you should add through FA just to add a skilled forward if you already have skilled forwards and you need a left D or sign a 4th line winger if you need a pure goal scorer just cause you struck out with an Offersheet. Personally of the FA we signed and what was available for their respective prices I like the Kinkade signing I like that we passed on Duchene at 9 MIL or whatever it was and I am intriguing at the Chiarot signing as it could mean MB is working on a trade. But the Cousins signing wasn't my favorite and if Chiarot was MB'S solution for the LD then that's not acceptable to me. I would rather allow Suzuki or Evans or Poehling to take the spot Cousins is going to and just have rolled with the D we had last season if Chiarot is supposed to be the solution cause he won't be. My point is the FA signings aren't a solution to all a teams problems but a tool to improve a team IF that team actually signs the right peice at the right price. I feel like a Max. contract similar to what the NBA uses may help with the rediculous contracts we are seeing right now. I would like to see something along the lines of 5 years and 10-12% cap hit is the max a player can sign for with a resigning team still getting a 6th year. Plus get rid of the RFA contracts altogether let the players and teams decide who to sign and where they want to go.

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1 hour ago, xxdocxx said:

I agree, no offence camp, but lets keep going in the right direction. I think we have arguably one of the best prospects pools in the league. Stay away from those big free agent signings. We already got burned by alzner. Lots of talent here to go the trade route for our needs and this is the brightest I've seen this teams future look in a long while.

 

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   Geez I couldn't agree more with this assessment ….unless there's a Laine down the road via trade for a reasonable outlay ( given his inconsistent defensive play )  I can't see losing the momentum of what appears to be a decent pipeline of prospects with more coming next year ...my feeling is the staff will take a hard look at training camp because that is an unknown ..KK will be better , Poehling might make the team and for all we know Suzuki ...Montreal has capable d -men in the system that can step up and Juulsen if he can stay healthy is another plus ...in today's NHL with its cap considerations you better have a good pool of prospects or you're dead in the water and Montreal is trending in the right direction from what I see 

 

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3 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I disagree if you don't do your homework and know your own team then yes the FA signing a don't always work out. However if you do know your team and what it needs and who would best fill that need then you do get the player and term you want and the value you seek. It's like anything else in the world if you know what you have and what you need you can get better but if you get what you want and not what you need you risk being burned.

Sure, but in the last say decade ... I'd say 2/3rds of all UFA signings for all teams did NOT work out so well in hindsight.   If you look at the teams who are going deep in the playoffs lately, they've all been built through the draft and key trades here and there.    Its rare that a UFA has a major impact for their new team, there are exceptions yes, but generally you're getting somebody in the decline of their career.

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39 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Sure, but in the last say decade ... I'd say 2/3rds of all UFA signings for all teams did NOT work out so well in hindsight.   If you look at the teams who are going deep in the playoffs lately, they've all been built through the draft and key trades here and there.    Its rare that a UFA has a major impact for their new team, there are exceptions yes, but generally you're getting somebody in the decline of their career.

Ok that I will agree with most FA signings don't live up to expectations. My question though is, is that cause the player was declining or cause he wasn't the right fit in the system? I would tend to say that it's cause the GM thought he had a handle on what his teams needs were but was wrong cause you see lots of FA signings that don't work but then the player is traded and he excels with the new team cause he fits better in that system 

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4 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

Sure, but in the last say decade ... I'd say 2/3rds of all UFA signings for all teams did NOT work out so well in hindsight.   If you look at the teams who are going deep in the playoffs lately, they've all been built through the draft and key trades here and there.    Its rare that a UFA has a major impact for their new team, there are exceptions yes, but generally you're getting somebody in the decline of their career.

absolutely i agree

 

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6 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I wasn't saying that you should just focus on FA. For sure you should have a steady stream of prospects but you also have to know your team and what their actual needs are and what is available to fill those needs before dipping into FA. I don't think you should add through FA just to add a skilled forward if you already have skilled forwards and you need a left D or sign a 4th line winger if you need a pure goal scorer just cause you struck out with an Offersheet. Personally of the FA we signed and what was available for their respective prices I like the Kinkade signing I like that we passed on Duchene at 9 MIL or whatever it was and I am intriguing at the Chiarot signing as it could mean MB is working on a trade. But the Cousins signing wasn't my favorite and if Chiarot was MB'S solution for the LD then that's not acceptable to me. I would rather allow Suzuki or Evans or Poehling to take the spot Cousins is going to and just have rolled with the D we had last season if Chiarot is supposed to be the solution cause he won't be. My point is the FA signings aren't a solution to all a teams problems but a tool to improve a team IF that team actually signs the right peice at the right price. I feel like a Max. contract similar to what the NBA uses may help with the rediculous contracts we are seeing right now. I would like to see something along the lines of 5 years and 10-12% cap hit is the max a player can sign for with a resigning team still getting a 6th year. Plus get rid of the RFA contracts altogether let the players and teams decide who to sign and where they want to go.

Sorry man maybe i took your quote the wrong way.

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6 hours ago, arpem-can said:

 

 

3 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Ok that I will agree with most FA signings don't live up to expectations. My question though is, is that cause the player was declining or cause he wasn't the right fit in the system? I would tend to say that it's cause the GM thought he had a handle on what his teams needs were but was wrong cause you see lots of FA signings that don't work but then the player is traded and he excels with the new team cause he fits better in that system 

All I can say is AMEN MAN. 

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6 hours ago, arpem-can said:

   Geez I couldn't agree more with this assessment ….unless there's a Laine down the road via trade for a reasonable outlay ( given his inconsistent defensive play )  I can't see losing the momentum of what appears to be a decent pipeline of prospects with more coming next year ...my feeling is the staff will take a hard look at training camp because that is an unknown ..KK will be better , Poehling might make the team and for all we know Suzuki ...Montreal has capable d -men in the system that can step up and Juulsen if he can stay healthy is another plus ...in today's NHL with its cap considerations you better have a good pool of prospects or you're dead in the water and Montreal is trending in the right direction from what I see 

 

Pure speculation. Those D-men are unproven at the NHL level. If they were ready there was no need to sign Chiarot.

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25 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Pure speculation. Those D-men are unproven at the NHL level. If they were ready there was no need to sign Chiarot.

   I think there are a couple of  guys in the system that can step up in a 5th or 6th spot ( it's not like I expect them to be top 2 pairings if called upon ) and right now there's a bit of a log jam on d  for the Habs anyway ...I think Chiarot was  an upgrade with more NHL experience will add more grit to the front of the net while his numbers are about the same as Benn  ….there weren't that many LHD available unless you count Gardiner at twice the money and term plus a suspect back ….I'm waiting for the camp to see how this unfolds ...maybe Bergevin with some room will pull the trigger on something more significant with teams in a cap crunch ...

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21 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

   I think there are a couple of  guys in the system that can step up in a 5th or 6th spot ( it's not like I expect them to be top 2 pairings if called upon ) and right now there's a bit of a log jam on d  for the Habs anyway ...I think Chiarot was  an upgrade with more NHL experience will add more grit to the front of the net while his numbers are about the same as Benn  ….there weren't that many LHD available unless you count Gardiner at twice the money and term plus a suspect back ….I'm waiting for the camp to see how this unfolds ...maybe Bergevin with some room will pull the trigger on something more significant with teams in a cap crunch ...

there is a log jam on the right not the left.

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38 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

   I think there are a couple of  guys in the system that can step up in a 5th or 6th spot ( it's not like I expect them to be top 2 pairings if called upon ) and right now there's a bit of a log jam on d  for the Habs anyway

who ?

Unless someone has a stand out camp the D are Weber, Petry, Chiarot, Mete, Folin, Kulak, Reilly

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11 hours ago, ramcharger440 said:

there is a log jam on the right not the left.

There's actually a log-jam on both sides.  On the right we have our two best dmen (currently) and 3 of our top 4 defensive prospects as well as some decent depth guys. We're super solid at RD.

On the left we have probably 6-7 guys who could make the nhl roster on most teams. Unfortunately the majority of them would be the 3rd pair on most teams.  We have a couple of guys who can be second pair players - especially when matched with a guy like Petry - and then we have a whole bunch of nothing when it comes to #1D    So we're definitely log-jammed at both sides of the defense, but with a huge hole right at the top of LD.   We have lots of quantity - and some decent quality - at LD but missing that most important piece. 

I think the hope right now is that Mete will take another step forward or that a guy like Leskinen will surprise, but i sure would prefer going into the season with more than a hope. 

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Its Eklund so, you know, grain (or even pound) of salt but since there's not many rumours out there:

 

2 hours ago, eklund said:

The Canadiens aren't done. Not by a long shot... This morning again two more reports, from sources I have known for years, who are telling me the Habs are looking around the NHL to add some star power and targeting two players....

Mainly Patrick Laine. ”Laine could be an offer sheet as early as tomorrow," one source continued, "it is far from a secret both sides have connected and talked contract..."

 

Laine is an interesting case among the RFA's after he struggled so much last season and found himself in the doghouse in a contract year....This has the Jets more than a bit nervous to go hog wild with term. Montreal could really put the Jets into a bad spot and the Jets know it. Montreal doesn't want to give up all the draft picks in an offer sheet so trade talk becomes inevitable..

 

The Canadiens also continue to talk to the Flyers regarding a d-man...The name that was coming up two weeks ago has changed...Then it looked like Gostisbehere was the key component, but now that has shifted to Travis Sanheim...

 

More to come including a Rumor hart update with the RFA signing percentages updated

 

I feel like there's probably some truth to the fact we've talked about Laine (although I dont think MB would offersheet him).   As for Sanheim - obviously id be ecstatic, but i just dont see Philly trading him.  Ghost maybe but sanheim? Cant see it. 

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4 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Its Eklund so, you know, grain (or even pound) of salt but since there's not many rumours out there:

 

I feel like there's probably some truth to the fact we've talked about Laine (although I dont think MB would offersheet him).   As for Sanheim - obviously id be ecstatic, but i just dont see Philly trading him.  Ghost maybe but sanheim? Cant see it. 

Would much rather have Sanheim than Ghost , IMO Lainie is overrated. He's too much of a one dimensional player to me for what he probably wants to get paid and what you'd have to give up for him. He did end up in the dog house a bit with the Jets because when he wasn't scoring his effort really wasn't there, and that was in a 'contract year".

 

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17 minutes ago, CaptWelly said:

Would much rather have Sanheim than Ghost , IMO Lainie is overrated. He's too much of a one dimensional player to me for what he probably wants to get paid and what you'd have to give up for him. He did end up in the dog house a bit with the Jets because when he wasn't scoring his effort really wasn't there, and that was in a 'contract year".

Agree, Sanheim is like, the dream - but then thats probably why its unlikely. I will say one thing for Eklund - in the past anyway - he has had good intel from the Pennsylvania based teams. He's often called things for both the flyers and the pens that no one else did & he was right so lets hope this is a case where he actually knows something because imho either (but especially Sanheim) would be a great addition. 

As for Laine, the worry i have is that he really is not a "Claude Julien" type player.  Its clear Claude wants 200 ft players & while i think Laine may be one of the top 5 best pure goal scorers in the NHl, as you mentioned the rest of his game - at least to this point in his career - leaves a lot to be desired.   Last year he had 30 goals.  He was a BEAST in November, scoring 18 of them.  The rest of the year he scored a total of 12 and was, as you said, often in the dog house. 

 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

Agree, Sanheim is like, the dream - but then thats probably why its unlikely. I will say one thing for Eklund - in the past anyway - he has had good intel from the Pennsylvania based teams. He's often called things for both the flyers and the pens that no one else did & he was right so lets hope this is a case where he actually knows something because imho either (but especially Sanheim) would be a great addition. 

As for Laine, the worry i have is that he really is not a "Claude Julien" type player.  Its clear Claude wants 200 ft players & while i think Laine may be one of the top 5 best pure goal scorers in the NHl, as you mentioned the rest of his game - at least to this point in his career - leaves a lot to be desired.   Last year he had 30 goals.  He was a BEAST in November, scoring 18 of them.  The rest of the year he scored a total of 12 and was, as you said, often in the dog house. 

 

My issue is the same as it is with most trade scenarios.  I would much rather be patient with the young guys we have (Seeing how we just got an elite sniper of the future potentially in Caufield)  rather than subract futures for a short term solution.

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1 hour ago, East_Coast_Juggalo_13 said:

My issue is the same as it is with most trade scenarios.  I would much rather be patient with the young guys we have (Seeing how we just got an elite sniper of the future potentially in Caufield)  rather than subract futures for a short term solution.

Sanheim is 23.  Ghost is 26.  Laine is 21. So I dont think any are really "short term" solutions. Certainly Sanheim or Laine would be expected to be here for some time.   

I agree our talent pool is growing by the year and many pundits ranks us at the very top of the league in terms of prospects but not all of those will work out & if it means moving some players to get a guy who is youngish and has already shown he can play in the NHL?  Id do it. 

I think you could build trades for Laine around Drouin +  and Sanheim or Ghost for Mete +    Obviously the most important thing here is "what is the +"  If its a first and a mid-tier prospect? Done.  If its a top prospect like Suzuki or Poehling or Brook? That would be tough.  But if we already have lots of great centre depth, can we not afford to move one of those guys to shore up at LD?    

Im still not convinced we have a true  #1LD in our system (I think Romanov will be very very good & there are guys like Harris or Norlinder, or Struble who may make the leap but if you have the opportunity to add someone now who's pretty much there already and is still young, i think you have to do it.  Any of our top LD prospects are still probably a couple of years away (at best) from being a top pairing guy (if they ever will be).

 

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55 minutes ago, maas_art said:

Sanheim is 23.  Ghost is 26.  Laine is 21. So I dont think any are really "short term" solutions. Certainly Sanheim or Laine would be expected to be here for some time.   

I agree our talent pool is growing by the year and many pundits ranks us at the very top of the league in terms of prospects but not all of those will work out & if it means moving some players to get a guy who is youngish and has already shown he can play in the NHL?  Id do it. 

I think you could build trades for Laine around Drouin +  and Sanheim or Ghost for Mete +    Obviously the most important thing here is "what is the +"  If its a first and a mid-tier prospect? Done.  If its a top prospect like Suzuki or Poehling or Brook? That would be tough.  But if we already have lots of great centre depth, can we not afford to move one of those guys to shore up at LD?    

Im still not convinced we have a true  #1LD in our system (I think Romanov will be very very good & there are guys like Harris or Norlinder, or Struble who may make the leap but if you have the opportunity to add someone now who's pretty much there already and is still young, i think you have to do it.  Any of our top LD prospects are still probably a couple of years away (at best) from being a top pairing guy (if they ever will be).

 

i agree with your view of the LHD  position, we have guy's but no real #1 in my opinion until we do we are not contenders. i feel any serious contender has at least three good forward lines and one great one and two solid D pairings and one that can do some shutdown work when needed. a top tier goalie and one that won't hurt the team. i really don't feel you need a star forward if you have enough really good ones and i think we are there or close to it. i have no concerns about the right side of our D for one or two more years but the left side is at least one top pairing guy short and if we don't fix it we will be stung by it again. i don't think we can afford to wait around this time we have to pay the price to get a guy and see if we can go some rounds in the spring, who knows how far we could go?

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On 7/14/2019 at 4:49 PM, HabsAlways said:

Sure, but in the last say decade ... I'd say 2/3rds of all UFA signings for all teams did NOT work out so well in hindsight.   If you look at the teams who are going deep in the playoffs lately, they've all been built through the draft and key trades here and there.    Its rare that a UFA has a major impact for their new team, there are exceptions yes, but generally you're getting somebody in the decline of their career.

Has there been a team that has built a contender primarily thru free agent additions and by that I mean at least 3 rather than 1? With the exception of the Oilers, the draft and develop model seems to be the route to success. When mgmt. starts listening to impatient fans, that seems to be the recipe for disaster such as the leafs and the rangers in previous years.

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22 minutes ago, claremont said:

Has there been a team that has built a contender primarily thru free agent additions and by that I mean at least 3 rather than 1? With the exception of the Oilers, the draft and develop model seems to be the route to success. When mgmt. starts listening to impatient fans, that seems to be the recipe for disaster such as the leafs and the rangers in previous years.

Yeah i think in almost every case UFAs are all about adding that "final piece" so if you're a top 5-8 team maybe that one guy gets you over the hump.  Similarly, if you're looking for a specific position (ie if you are the leafs & you could have added Karlsson) then it makes some sense.  But for most signings?  Not so much.  Plenty of good mid-tier signings make sense but the top guys...   i mean Duchene will likely be great for the first 2- 3 years in nashville but in the last few I think he's going to be an anchor. 
 
 

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