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18 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

Infuriating. We rush out and sign Chiarot on day one of free agency and can't beat 4x4 for a PERFECT fit at LD on a team with 15 trillion dollars in cap space. Unbelievably frustrating and a huge missed opportunity.

this 4 yr deal is contingent on how his chronic back holds up 

 

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1 minute ago, arpem-can said:

this 4 yr deal is contingent on how his chronic back holds up 

I wouldn't worry about this very much. If his back is bad enough he can't play he goes on LTIR and comes off the cap. If his back injury makes him less effective but still able to play 4M is a perfectly fine amount of money for a #4-5 PP specialist which is basically his floor. 

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4 x 4 to a non-contender makes me think his back is a real concern.  Considering Tyler Myers just got $6m for 5 years and most expected Gardiner to go for more, this suggests a lot of teams were scared off by his back.


I understand the argument "who cares" about his back - just put him on LTIR - but a player with a chronic injury can really mess up your plans.  He's healthy - then he isnt - then he is.  Its fine for a role player but a top pairing Dman? I think thats a headache you'd rather avoid if you can.


Like others, I would definitely have been interested in him at that price but Im still holding out hope that we are planning to land an even better top LHD via trade.  Yes, it will cost us assets, but there are several players out there who are better than Jake Gardiner.  The key is that we actually have to get one of them. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

4 x 4 to a non-contender makes me think his back is a real concern.  Considering Tyler Myers just got $6m for 5 years and most expected Gardiner to go for more, this suggests a lot of teams were scared off by his back.


I understand the argument "who cares" about his back - just put him on LTIR - but a player with a chronic injury can really mess up your plans.  He's healthy - then he isnt - then he is.  Its fine for a role player but a top pairing Dman? I think thats a headache you'd rather avoid if you can.


Like others, I would definitely have been interested in him at that price but Im still holding out hope that we are planning to land an even better top LHD via trade.  Yes, it will cost us assets, but there are several players out there who are better than Jake Gardiner.  The key is that we actually have to get one of them. 

I was one of the people who thought Gardiner would have been a good addition but I am kind of relieved we didn't end up signing him. I have this sneaking suspicion that Leskinen is going to steal a spot this year and maybe even challenge Mete for top spot. 

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1 hour ago, maas_art said:

4 x 4 to a non-contender makes me think his back is a real concern.  Considering Tyler Myers just got $6m for 5 years and most expected Gardiner to go for more, this suggests a lot of teams were scared off by his back.


I understand the argument "who cares" about his back - just put him on LTIR - but a player with a chronic injury can really mess up your plans.  He's healthy - then he isnt - then he is.  Its fine for a role player but a top pairing Dman? I think thats a headache you'd rather avoid if you can.


Like others, I would definitely have been interested in him at that price but Im still holding out hope that we are planning to land an even better top LHD via trade.  Yes, it will cost us assets, but there are several players out there who are better than Jake Gardiner.  The key is that we actually have to get one of them. 

 I'm not too perturbed by this ...not to mention there would be plenty of fans saying why over-pay for a guy with a suspect back and less than stellar play-off performances ?...if he works out in Carolina that's ok too but in the end he signed for a lot less than people thought he would ...I guess the phone wasn't exactly ringing off the hook so he took less money than he's been making with the Leafs the last 4-5 years ..obviously teams GMs weren't convinced about his durability for a reason ..that and the Maple Leaf tattooed on his body somewhere lol

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I really don't care about Gardiner one way or another. He could've been a fit here but after everything I've seen, I'm having a hard time envisioning him making a difference in Montreal. Let's aim higher and get a guy who's really going to help, even though it'll cost more than just cap space.

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I really am not sure which better LD people are expecting the Habs to land. There's not really that many LD out there who are better than Gardiner, and even fewer who are plausible trade targets. At some point the perfect can't be the enemy of the good. This is now the 3rd year since Markov left with no replacement and here was a perfect fit available for just cash and we're going into the season with the same defence as last year except for a worse and more expensive version of Benn. 

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5 hours ago, maas_art said:

4 x 4 to a non-contender makes me think his back is a real concern.  Considering Tyler Myers just got $6m for 5 years and most expected Gardiner to go for more, this suggests a lot of teams were scared off by his back.


I understand the argument "who cares" about his back - just put him on LTIR - but a player with a chronic injury can really mess up your plans.  He's healthy - then he isnt - then he is.  Its fine for a role player but a top pairing Dman? I think thats a headache you'd rather avoid if you can.


Like others, I would definitely have been interested in him at that price but Im still holding out hope that we are planning to land an even better top LHD via trade.  Yes, it will cost us assets, but there are several players out there who are better than Jake Gardiner.  The key is that we actually have to get one of them. 

Not sure I would say Carolina is a "non-contender"... I get your implication that they're not a top 5 team in the league and no one is picking them to win the Cup, but they're very much in the mix to make the playoffs and make some noise through the playoffs, and they have a really nice mix of both forward and D prospects coming up to join a young nucleus. If you're Gardiner, you could do worse.

I'd tend to agree with you that there are better trade options than Gardiner. We've talked about Werenski, Ghost, Klefbom, Matheson, and others. That said, 4x4 is a pretty reasonable deal for Gardiner despite the injury concerns. I wouldn't want to pay 7M a year for a guy who could miss 40 games but consider that Alzner is making more than this and we managed to get by while eating his salary. That's not to say Gardiner is my first choice, but given MB has done zippo yet to improve his D corps, I guess the sentiment I have is that Gardiner at 4x4 is a better place to be in than having no one signed or traded for. I think we can re-visit this point once we know whether Bergevin acts before the season starts and when we know whether he has a plan.

 

1 hour ago, ChiLla said:

I really don't care about Gardiner one way or another. He could've been a fit here but after everything I've seen, I'm having a hard time envisioning him making a difference in Montreal. Let's aim higher and get a guy who's really going to help, even though it'll cost more than just cap space.

 

44 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

I really am not sure which better LD people are expecting the Habs to land. There's not really that many LD out there who are better than Gardiner, and even fewer who are plausible trade targets. At some point the perfect can't be the enemy of the good. This is now the 3rd year since Markov left with no replacement and here was a perfect fit available for just cash and we're going into the season with the same defence as last year except for a worse and more expensive version of Benn. 

I don't love Gardiner, but again, the bottom line for me today on September 6th is that the Habs would be a better team with Gardiner than without him. Right now, the left side of the D is running Mete-Chiarot-Kulak in some order and I think we're significantly better with Gardiner-Mete-Kulak than with what we have now. I'll reiterate that I hated the Chiarot move and don't see a benefit to log-jamming your line-up and cap with 3rd-pairing D men when it doesn't address your problem of needing a 1st-pairing LHD. Is Gardiner the ultimate choice? No. We could certainly trade for a better player, but who is really available and at what price?

MB has already (correctly IMO) announced he will not go after Markov, but he's got to have a Plan B that's better than Chariot, even if it's not Gardiner. Gardiner was in my view a Plan B in itself, but now that that ship has sailed, what's the Plan A or the Plan C?

 

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11 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

Not sure I would say Carolina is a "non-contender"... I get your implication that they're not a top 5 team in the league and no one is picking them to win the Cup, but they're very much in the mix to make the playoffs and make some noise through the playoffs, and they have a really nice mix of both forward and D prospects coming up to join a young nucleus. If you're Gardiner, you could do worse.

I'd tend to agree with you that there are better trade options than Gardiner. We've talked about Werenski, Ghost, Klefbom, Matheson, and others. That said, 4x4 is a pretty reasonable deal for Gardiner despite the injury concerns. I wouldn't want to pay 7M a year for a guy who could miss 40 games but consider that Alzner is making more than this and we managed to get by while eating his salary. That's not to say Gardiner is my first choice, but given MB has done zippo yet to improve his D corps, I guess the sentiment I have is that Gardiner at 4x4 is a better place to be in than having no one signed or traded for. I think we can re-visit this point once we know whether Bergevin acts before the season starts and when we know whether he has a plan.

 

 

I don't love Gardiner, but again, the bottom line for me today on September 6th is that the Habs would be a better team with Gardiner than without him. Right now, the left side of the D is running Mete-Chiarot-Kulak in some order and I think we're significantly better with Gardiner-Mete-Kulak than with what we have now. I'll reiterate that I hated the Chiarot move and don't see a benefit to log-jamming your line-up and cap with 3rd-pairing D men when it doesn't address your problem of needing a 1st-pairing LHD. Is Gardiner the ultimate choice? No. We could certainly trade for a better player, but who is really available and at what price?

MB has already (correctly IMO) announced he will not go after Markov, but he's got to have a Plan B that's better than Chariot, even if it's not Gardiner. Gardiner was in my view a Plan B in itself, but now that that ship has sailed, what's the Plan A or the Plan C?

 

I actually would of rather sign Markov at 1 year at 1 million than sign Gardner IMO.

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8 hours ago, CaptWelly said:

I actually would of rather sign Markov at 1 year at 1 million than sign Gardner IMO.

I would not, notwithstanding the fact that Markov might not accept 1M... Gardiner has the potential to be a top 4 D man and likely is a decent #3 guy if he's not hurt. 4x4M is really not a bad contract for that type of player. Markov is maybe a 3rd pairing PP specialist and maybe not even fast enough to still play in the NHL. Reports are that he was even slower in the KHL last year than he was in the NHL, and he's an injury risk himself. There's very little upside to Markov and he certainly doesn't solve out top 4 issues IMO.

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On 2019-09-06 at 9:34 PM, Windoe said:

Yep my sentiments as well.  Didn't want him, didn't want to pay the likely $5m to get him here, happy this is over and we can move on.

  If he took 4x4 from Carolina it's not a stretch to figure the other teams weren't offering more money or were offering less term . Not hard to figure here . Gardiner is a good skater and a decent point producer but prone to gaffes with a suspect back = enough uncertainty not to sign him . Carolina is better with a healthy Gardiner  during the season but not sure beyond that or for 3 more years .

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10 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  If he took 4x4 from Carolina it's not a stretch to figure the other teams weren't offering more money or were offering less term . Not hard to figure here . Gardiner is a good skater and a decent point producer but prone to gaffes with a suspect back = enough uncertainty not to sign him . Carolina is better with a healthy Gardiner  during the season but not sure beyond that or for 3 more years .

According to the local Canes beat writer at The Athletic, Carolina was the only team willing to give Gardiner term. Other interested parties reportedly only offered 1-2 year deals, which Gardiner wasn't too fond of.

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On 9/6/2019 at 6:52 PM, BigTed3 said:

I don't love Gardiner, but again, the bottom line for me today on September 6th is that the Habs would be a better team with Gardiner than without him. Right now, the left side of the D is running Mete-Chiarot-Kulak in some order and I think we're significantly better with Gardiner-Mete-Kulak than with what we have now. I'll reiterate that I hated the Chiarot move and don't see a benefit to log-jamming your line-up and cap with 3rd-pairing D men when it doesn't address your problem of needing a 1st-pairing LHD. Is Gardiner the ultimate choice? No. We could certainly trade for a better player, but who is really available and at what price?

MB has already (correctly IMO) announced he will not go after Markov, but he's got to have a Plan B that's better than Chariot, even if it's not Gardiner. Gardiner was in my view a Plan B in itself, but now that that ship has sailed, what's the Plan A or the Plan C?

 

While Chariot isn't the offensive player Gardiner is ... I think they're comparable in terms of overall value in the Habs lineup.

Most likely we get :

Mete - Weber

Chariot - Petry 

Kulak - Juulsen

Here's my rational .. either Gardiner plays with Weber or he plays with Petry.   With Weber, the roles are obvious ... Gardiner carries the puck, Weber defends.    With Petry, the same thing ... but Petry is forced into a more defensive role to cover for Gardiner than JP played last year.

The flip side to this ... is Chariot with Petry allows Petry to play a more offensive role, which I think he not only can do but do almost as well as Gardeiner while being better defensively.    Gardiner would possibly bring us offense, but I think Chariot does so as well ... through Petry.

 

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10 hours ago, ChiLla said:

According to the local Canes beat writer at The Athletic, Carolina was the only team willing to give Gardiner term. Other interested parties reportedly only offered 1-2 year deals, which Gardiner wasn't too fond of.

that's what I figured as well..Bergy probably offered him a 2 yr and Gardiner took the guarantee ..however Bergy indicated at the golf tournament that Gardiner didn't want to come to Montreal for whatever reasons ..maybe we'll never know how this played out 

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2 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

While Chariot isn't the offensive player Gardiner is ... I think they're comparable in terms of overall value in the Habs lineup.

Most likely we get :

Mete - Weber

Chariot - Petry 

Kulak - Juulsen

Here's my rational .. either Gardiner plays with Weber or he plays with Petry.   With Weber, the roles are obvious ... Gardiner carries the puck, Weber defends.    With Petry, the same thing ... but Petry is forced into a more defensive role to cover for Gardiner than JP played last year.

The flip side to this ... is Chariot with Petry allows Petry to play a more offensive role, which I think he not only can do but do almost as well as Gardeiner while being better defensively.    Gardiner would possibly bring us offense, but I think Chariot does so as well ... through Petry.

To me term was probably the key.  We actually have some very good young dmen in the system & signing someone who creates a log-jam is not idea.   I wouldnt be surprised at all if MB offered Gardiner a 1-2 year deal worth way more than what Carolina gave him.  But that 3rd and 4th year could be problematic.   Romanov could be over here as soon as spring,  Harris, Struble, Fairbrother, Leskinen, etc... 

Im not saying you dont offer term if you have the opportunity to acquire an established top pairing LD  (lets say you could get Sanheim in a trade) but Gardiner, to me, is better suited as a 2nd pair guy & honestly I think we have enough of those.


As BigTed often says: Are we better with Gardiner on our roster this year?  Yes.   Would we better with him in 3 years?  Not so sure if that means some of our young dmen dont get a chance.   


Having said that Im still not sure where Chairot fits in.  I dont think its a horrible signing but it seems unecessary & I could see him on the 3rd pair fairly easily - and thats a lot of money for a third pairing guy.   

 

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4 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

While Chariot isn't the offensive player Gardiner is ... I think they're comparable in terms of overall value in the Habs lineup.

Most likely we get :

Mete - Weber

Chariot - Petry 

Kulak - Juulsen

Here's my rational .. either Gardiner plays with Weber or he plays with Petry.   With Weber, the roles are obvious ... Gardiner carries the puck, Weber defends.    With Petry, the same thing ... but Petry is forced into a more defensive role to cover for Gardiner than JP played last year.

The flip side to this ... is Chariot with Petry allows Petry to play a more offensive role, which I think he not only can do but do almost as well as Gardeiner while being better defensively.    Gardiner would possibly bring us offense, but I think Chariot does so as well ... through Petry.

 

I would disagree with Gardiner and Chiarot being of equal value. Chiarot is a 3rd pairing D man whom we're potentially asking to play in the top 4, but he contributes next to no offence. Gardiner is any way you cut it a top 4 D man. I don't really get the idea that you have to have one D man who sits back and plays D the entire game. Why not have two D who can skate and carry the puck? Why not have two guys who can play offensive hockey too? I don't think the Preds take issue with having Josi and Ellis and wondering if they'd be better off pairing Josi with a player like Emelin because Emelin sits back and plays D. I don't think they were upset by having Weber and Suter before that.

Yeah, you have to be careful about having guys who have no defensive ability and are liabilities... I think of players like Marc-Andre Bergeron and Mark Streit to some degree early on in his career and Patrick Traverse. Sure these guys brought offence, but they couldn't play in their own zone. But I don't think that's true of Gardiner and his defensive miscues have been blown out of proportion, just as they were with Subban, for example. Many people labeled Subban a defensive liability, just because he liked to skate the puck up the ice. But he actually had some of the best defensive numbers on the team and he could control puck possession and breakouts, which ultimately helps to protect your own end as well. I'd easily rather have the guy who can skate and control the puck over the guy who can't, and I see no problem with having two guys who can do that.

If you look at Petry, he played really well when paired with Mete and decently well paired with Kulak. His worst moments came when he was partnered with Benn and Alzner, two "stay-at-home" defencemen who provided little to no offence. IMO, that put more strain on Petry to do the heavy lifting and play both ends of the ice. You put Petry with Gardiner and suddenly each guy has a nice outlet where they can dish the puck to their partner to get out of trouble and have that guy be able to move the puck up ice just as well. Everyone knew when Benn or Alzner got the puck that it was largely going up the boards but not being skated out. Too predictable and not generating any offence. I don't know how Chiarot will fit or perform here, but from what I've seen of him on tape, he's not a guy who's going to be a puck mover or offensive creator. I'd easily rather have Gardiner-Weber, Mete-Petry and have two pairings that can create up front and still be fine in their own end. I don't think Gardiner being there means Petry or Weber has to stop playing offensively, and I don't think Chiarot helps Petry produce offence, I think it hurts Petry's offence because he has no legitimate outlet on the other side and reading that D pairing becomes more predictable.

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i will wait to see how Chiarot fits in here before i judge, he was playing with Buff so he has been slotted in to upper pairing minutes in the past i have seen him skate and play and comparing him to Alzner is not  a good fit! Benn when he was having a good game is more how i see him. until i see him play with our guy's it is tough to say but i have sort of noticed Petry seems to be very sensitive to his partner not like Marky was in how he could make Komisarek look a few million better...LOL!

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