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RDS picking up a story from Anaheim news that the Canes have an agreement in place to trade Justin Faulk to Anaheim for a package that might include Ondraj Kase. Faullk, however, has a partial NTC and Anaheim isn't on his list of acceptable destinations, so he has to okay it. But again, we see a top 4 D man is available via trade and potentially not for a horrible price (although this remains to be seen). Faulk is a righty and maybe doesn't help us in our area of need, but regardless, guys are available...

Likewise, Werenski just signed with Clb for 3 years and 15M. We don't know if MB looked into him or not, but he would have been a golden fit next to Weber or Petry. Hard to believe he wouldn't have entertained an offer for 5 years at 7.5M a season...

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5 hours ago, RCAF48 said:

La Presse reporting Gardiner turned down 3YR/15.75 million offer from Montreal

$5.25 per... 

41% tax rate in Carolina,  and 52% in Montreal...


$4m per in carolina= $2.3m take home per year
$5.25m per in montreal = $2.4m take home per year


So money was basically the same.

 

EDIT: forgot about exchange rate.  $2.3m USD in Carolina vs $2.4m Can in Montreal.  Thats about $500k more per year in Carolina + the extra year

 

 

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This is the reality of competing for UFAs while in Montreal...in the vast majority of UFA opportunities we have to overpay to compete for a chance to land a UFA.  Hey, its worth a shot to throw our hat in the ring just in case the player really wants to play in Montreal, but generally we're going to be better off drafting, trading and developing; where we don't face such a steep disadvantage.    

This is why "the player wants to be in Montreal" is so important to MB.  Without that, its not going to happen unless we overpay hard.

 

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7 hours ago, maas_art said:

$5.25 per... 

41% tax rate in Carolina,  and 52% in Montreal...


$4m per in carolina= $2.3m take home per year
$5.25m per in montreal = $2.4m take home per year


So money was basically the same.

 

EDIT: forgot about exchange rate.  $2.3m USD in Carolina vs $2.4m Can in Montreal.  Thats about $500k more per year in Carolina + the extra year

 

 

All player contracts are in US dollars, so our offer would have been too, but the rest of your point stands. Taxes kill us. At least it's part of it...

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3 hours ago, Windoe said:

This is the reality of competing for UFAs while in Montreal...in the vast majority of UFA opportunities we have to overpay to compete for a chance to land a UFA.  Hey, its worth a shot to throw our hat in the ring just in case the player really wants to play in Montreal, but generally we're going to be better off drafting, trading and developing; where we don't face such a steep disadvantage.    

This is why "the player wants to be in Montreal" is so important to MB.  Without that, its not going to happen unless we overpay hard.

 

To me it's why drafting is so important. You could afford, to some extent, to overpay for a free agent if you had good young talent on cheap contracts playing for you instead of signing Alzner type contracts.  

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Saw today where the canes have a potential deal with the ducks involving Faulk and Kase then saw the following article that offered Petry for Kase see link below.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://awinninghabit.com/2019/09/10/montreal-canadiens-jeff-petry-ondrej-kase/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwisjsWT3cfkAhXGm-AKHUAlAsAQ0PADMAl6BAgHECY&usg=AOvVaw2_gU0Kwj9t522DjpG_OdXz

When I realized what that would do to our lineup I couldn't help but think what a great move that would be. Like adding Laine only cheaper. Of course the Ducks would probably have to send a pick back as well but even 1 for 1 is a decent return

Tatar-Domi-Gallagher 

Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Kase

Lehkonen-Danault-Hudon

Byron-Poehling-Armia

Weal, Cousins

 

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11 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Saw today where the canes have a potential deal with the ducks involving Faulk and Kase then saw the following article that offered Petry for Kase see link below.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://awinninghabit.com/2019/09/10/montreal-canadiens-jeff-petry-ondrej-kase/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwisjsWT3cfkAhXGm-AKHUAlAsAQ0PADMAl6BAgHECY&usg=AOvVaw2_gU0Kwj9t522DjpG_OdXz

When I realized what that would do to our lineup I couldn't help but think what a great move that would be. Like adding Laine only cheaper. Of course the Ducks would probably have to send a pick back as well but even 1 for 1 is a decent return

Tatar-Domi-Gallagher 

Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Kase

Lehkonen-Danault-Hudon

Byron-Poehling-Armia

Weal, Cousins

 

no idea how reliable that article is but while Im not opposed to trading Petry (Trading Weber will never happen imho) and I could actually see MB trading Jeff in the next year, you HAVE to get a D in return imho.    I think with Weber, Juulsen, Brook and Fleury we can probably absorb the loss of Petry but if we are trading  that asset we have to be smart about it.  We have a ton of forwards & while RW is the weakest spot up front there are some options.   That LD #1 slot is the big worry.

THere are teams who are deep at LD but need help at RD.   Philly is a team that comes to mind.    Sure Petry is much older than Sanheim/Ghost but so are a number of their core players.   They likely have a couple of years & then will have to rebuild/retool.  Petry + Pick for one of their top LD?   that makes more sense than Kase to me.  Plus i worry about his durability.  You'd be replacing Shaw with... Shaw in terms of potential health concerns. 

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41 minutes ago, maas_art said:

no idea how reliable that article is but while Im not opposed to trading Petry (Trading Weber will never happen imho) and I could actually see MB trading Jeff in the next year, you HAVE to get a D in return imho.    I think with Weber, Juulsen, Brook and Fleury we can probably absorb the loss of Petry but if we are trading  that asset we have to be smart about it.  We have a ton of forwards & while RW is the weakest spot up front there are some options.   That LD #1 slot is the big worry.

THere are teams who are deep at LD but need help at RD.   Philly is a team that comes to mind.    Sure Petry is much older than Sanheim/Ghost but so are a number of their core players.   They likely have a couple of years & then will have to rebuild/retool.  Petry + Pick for one of their top LD?   that makes more sense than Kase to me.  Plus i worry about his durability.  You'd be replacing Shaw with... Shaw in terms of potential health concerns. 

Didn't realize he was that much of a health concern. Your right though LD is our biggest need and we could probably get by with the forwards we have was just thinking RW isn't that deep at the moment LOL 

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21 hours ago, maas_art said:

$5.25 per... 

41% tax rate in Carolina,  and 52% in Montreal...


$4m per in carolina= $2.3m take home per year
$5.25m per in montreal = $2.4m take home per year

So money was basically the same.

EDIT: forgot about exchange rate.  $2.3m USD in Carolina vs $2.4m Can in Montreal.  Thats about $500k more per year in Carolina + the extra year

Aren't ALL NHL players paid in American dollars? I'm pretty sure Montreal Canadiens players are paid in American dollars, not Canadian dollars. And clearly Gardiner was looking for term. We could have offered four years, but chose not to.

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

Didn't realize he was that much of a health concern. Your right though LD is our biggest need and we could probably get by with the forwards we have was just thinking RW isn't that deep at the moment LOL 

Yeah, i know he's been injured a lot.   I feel like we have a great option for top 6 RW with Suzuki. I know they have talked about keeping him at centre but with JK, Poehling, Domi and Danault & I dont see the need Only Danault is over 24.   If Suzuki did work out, we're solid at RW too - Gallagher, Suzuki, Armia, Weal, Byron - with Caufield waiting in the wings. 

I still keep coming back to philly & thinking there's an option there.  Provorov is 22 and an elite top pairing LD. Sanheim is 23 and a legit top pairing LD.  Ghost is 26 and a solid top pairing LD.   Meanwhile they have holes at RD.    Could we not offer Petry for Sanheim  or Ghost?   Or what if we went way outside the box & offered Romanov + Juulsen for Provorov?   I know, id hate to lose Romanov but Provorov is the real deal, and young. 
 

1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Aren't ALL NHL players paid in American dollars? I'm pretty sure Montreal Canadiens players are paid in American dollars, not Canadian dollars. And clearly Gardiner was looking for term. We could have offered four years, but chose not to.

Yes, I had forgotten about that (US dollars).  I agree, term was the key.  Im actually surprised MB even offered 3 years tbh. 

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Elliotte Friedman told SN650 that Gardiner wanted to stay in Toronto. 

The defenseman's priority all along was to stay in Toronto and if that couldn't be accomplished he wanted to pick a "quiet media market". 

Friedman confirmed that Gardiner received strong interest from the Canadiens, Vancouver Canucks and Winnipeg Jets but didn't want to deal with the heavy media presence in those markets. 

It seems much like Matt Duchene, Gardiner just wasn't strong enough to deal with the Montreal media. 

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4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Aren't ALL NHL players paid in American dollars? I'm pretty sure Montreal Canadiens players are paid in American dollars, not Canadian dollars. And clearly Gardiner was looking for term. We could have offered four years, but chose not to.

 

4 hours ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I don't think taxes killed us in this situation. Carolina chose to offer him four years and we (apparently) chose to offer only three.

Not sure that we can say term played a factor, if the rumors of our offer are true. Yes, we gave one less year than Carolina, but we offered a higher AAV. If he played here for 3 years and 15.75M, he would have to play one more season anywhere and even if he made minimum wage, he would have out-earned what he is set to make in Carolina. I don't think we can say Gardiner secured more long-term financial stability by taking that Carolina deal than ours, and if anything he would probably have made more money in the long run by taking our deal and then signing another deal, and his next deal would almost certainly be for a higher AAV if he hits UFA status again one year younger than if he hits it in 4 years. If we were comparing a 3 year deal to a 6 year deal, I would get that point, but not 3 vs 4 where the 3-year one gives you almost as much money in a shorter time.

I'm much more inclined to buy the argument of taxes or market size or weather or other things that are largely out of MB's control.

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35 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Not sure that we can say term played a factor, if the rumors of our offer are true. Yes, we gave one less year than Carolina, but we offered a higher AAV. If he played here for 3 years and 15.75M, he would have to play one more season anywhere and even if he made minimum wage, he would have out-earned what he is set to make in Carolina. I don't think we can say Gardiner secured more long-term financial stability by taking that Carolina deal than ours, and if anything he would probably have made more money in the long run by taking our deal and then signing another deal, and his next deal would almost certainly be for a higher AAV if he hits UFA status again one year younger than if he hits it in 4 years. If we were comparing a 3 year deal to a 6 year deal, I would get that point, but not 3 vs 4 where the 3-year one gives you almost as much money in a shorter time.

I'm much more inclined to buy the argument of taxes or market size or weather or other things that are largely out of MB's control.

According to Kinot's post above, looks like media presence may have played a role. Dude wanted to stay in Toronto... and chose a "quieter" location when that wasn't possible. So says Elliotte Friedman, apparently.

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A quiet location for Gardiner may be a location where his wife is comfortable to be with their young child.  I believe a possible move to Montreal often causes concerns within the player's families. The concerns may not be valid but they often exist. 

I may be biased though since I once moved from Manitoba to Quebec with my new bride in early spring for my dream job, by late autumn she was happily decorating our new place in NB.  A happy wife does really lead to a happy life.....50 years later I have no regrets about that decision or any other decision she may suggest I make tomorrow. 

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Luv 2 be a Canadiens fan whining about the financial advantages the CAROLINA HURRICANES enjoy. 

Did we all forget that 9 weeks ago the Canadiens tried to poach their franchise player because the Habs are one of three hockey franchises on earth with unlimited money and the Hurricanes are historically a budget team? 

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52 minutes ago, Noob616 said:

Luv 2 be a Canadiens fan whining about the financial advantages the CAROLINA HURRICANES enjoy. 

Did we all forget that 9 weeks ago the Canadiens tried to poach their franchise player because the Habs are one of three hockey franchises on earth with unlimited money and the Hurricanes are historically a budget team? 

Sure. But how much money Carolina spends is a variable. They can to some degree control that by adding new investors for example or by Dundon just spending more money (the guy has deep pockets and just chooses to spend less)... the Habs can do zippo about taxes and weather.

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10 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Sure. But how much money Carolina spends is a variable. They can to some degree control that by adding new investors for example or by Dundon just spending more money (the guy has deep pockets and just chooses to spend less)... the Habs can do zippo about taxes and weather.

I think he is a canes fan in our forum or worse a Leafs fan LOL. I should clarify I meant Noob616 not BigTed.

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

I think he is a canes fan in our forum or worse a Leafs fan LOL. I should clarify I meant Noob616 not BigTed.

I don't think he's trying to support another team, he's just giving his viewpoint on the issue. I disagree with his feeling that taxes don't matter, but he's entitled to his opinion and I'm not averse to noting that there are other factors outside of taxes that go into players' decisions.

 

7 minutes ago, MuddyWaterMoose said:

I think a valuable take away from all of this information though is that this is a case where we can't fault MB for not landing the player. I think his offer was very fair and anything more and we'd likely be complaining that he over paid. Ultimately, the player just didn't want to play for Montreal.

Yes, and it's a recurrent issue... Radulov has admitted he chose Dallas for the same contract because his take-home pay was better after taxes and he wanted Montreal to pay the difference. Duchene ended up going to a place with lower taxes despite loving Montreal as a city. Now Gardiner took a worse contract to stay out of the limelight, supposedly.

As I said to Noob, these are all things out of Bergevin's control and it's got to be frustrating to some degree. Yes, there are good things about being a Habs fan or the Habs' GM, but you'd still want to see a correctable factor like this taken care of by the league.

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8 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I don't think he's trying to support another team, he's just giving his viewpoint on the issue. I disagree with his feeling that taxes don't matter, but he's entitled to his opinion and I'm not averse to noting that there are other factors outside of taxes that go into players' decisions.

 

Yes, and it's a recurrent issue... Radulov has admitted he chose Dallas for the same contract because his take-home pay was better after taxes and he wanted Montreal to pay the difference. Duchene ended up going to a place with lower taxes despite loving Montreal as a city. Now Gardiner took a worse contract to stay out of the limelight, supposedly.

As I said to Noob, these are all things out of Bergevin's control and it's got to be frustrating to some degree. Yes, there are good things about being a Habs fan or the Habs' GM, but you'd still want to see a correctable factor like this taken care of by the league.

Yes I agree I don't really think he is supporting another team either. It really was a poor attempt at a bad joke. 

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A small - but important - detail about the Gardiner offer.

Sportsnet reporting that Bergevin's  $15m + 3 year deal was in early July.   At that time the belief is that Gardiner thought he could get $6+m  so he may have balked at the Habs offer.

Not wanting to sit around & do nothing, Bergevin waited a little bit, moved on from Gardiner & then offered Chiarot the deal.  
 

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