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5 hours ago, 26NCounting said:

You could be very well right, hindsight is 20/20.  I think my skepticism just  draws from the fact that we have made so many poor drafts in the last 10 years add to that the decisions that MB has made  seems to keep this team in a constant state of being a mid caliber team

Oh I totally get that.  What I find so weird about our drafting is how we've actually done fairly well with 2-4th rounders, but our 1st have been largely disappointing.   I would count JK, Sergachev and Galchenyuk as good 1st round picks (yes, Chucky was a disappointment but that may well be the worst draft year in history. He's still 2nd in points in his draft class i believe). 

Juulsen probably deserves to be in that group too if it werent for bad injury luck.  Caufield looks promising still but its too early to tell.  Poehling may turn things around but he's looking a bit iffy as any sort of impact player. Maybe Bouchard will help. But Scherbak, McCarron, Beaulieu, Tinordi and Leblanc were unmitigated disasters.  Is some of that attributable to bad development? Maybe but thats a lot of guys... 

 

 

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On 9/22/2020 at 0:14 AM, maas_art said:

Says who? 

Over the past 4 seasons only Ovechkin, Matthews, Pastrnak, Kucherov, Draisaitl and  McDavid have scored more goals than Laine. Those are NHL superstars - and Laine is younger than all of them. 

His value is very high. If anything, most people are likely undervaluing him.  There's a strong chance that Winnipeg may not even consider dealing with us unless one of JK, Suzuki or Romanov is included in the deal. 

Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit more. Some people (not necessarily on this site) put Laine's value at Romanov + Suzuki or Kotkaniemi + 2020 1st + 2020 2nd + 2021 1st which again in my opinion is too high. Laine can score like not many other players but he is much like Drouin and floats around a lot. Plus going forward what is he going to ask for on his next contract 9, 10 or 11 Mil + and he has already shown that he would rather sit out than negotiate. That makes him a big not worth the headache for me.

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17 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit more. Some people (not necessarily on this site) put Laine's value at Romanov + Suzuki or Kotkaniemi + 2020 1st + 2020 2nd + 2021 1st which again in my opinion is too high. Laine can score like not many other players but he is much like Drouin and floats around a lot. Plus going forward what is he going to ask for on his next contract 9, 10 or 11 Mil + and he has already shown that he would rather sit out than negotiate. That makes him a big not worth the headache for me.

I would go after Laine in a heartbeat. You can't really compare him to Drouin, who I agree, is a floater and I would get rid of him as fast as possible. As you said, Laine's value is very high. I think we can get him, and not have to include JK, Suzuki or Romanov. Some of Drouin, Domi, Byron, Danault, Juulsen, Fleury, Mete, 2020 #1, 2021 #1...would probaby get it done.  He!!, they can have them all! 

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15 hours ago, electron58 said:

I would go after Laine in a heartbeat. You can't really compare him to Drouin, who I agree, is a floater and I would get rid of him as fast as possible. As you said, Laine's value is very high. I think we can get him, and not have to include JK, Suzuki or Romanov. Some of Drouin, Domi, Byron, Danault, Juulsen, Fleury, Mete, 2020 #1, 2021 #1...would probaby get it done.  He!!, they can have them all! 

I would trade for Laine only if the max going out is something like Domi + Mete + 2020 1st + Juulsen/Fleury any more than that and the cost out weighs the gain IMO

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11 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

I would trade for Laine only if the max going out is something like Domi + Mete + 2020 1st + Juulsen/Fleury any more than that and the cost out weighs the gain IMO

  I tend to agree it would take probably too much and there's no guarantee Laine won't hold out as a UFA the next year ...the only way it happens is if an agreement is in place with his agent beforehand as to what it would take to sign him money -wise with term ...I think Carolina with their own Finnish connection is in a better to position to acquire him than Montreal ( let's not forget  the offer sheet for Aho at $8.5 mill and 5 yrs was paid immediately by the Canes  ).....I still think Laine stays with the Jets ...his talent is through the roof whether he's streaky or not ...... Mete , Juulsen , Fleury , a 16th overall and an inconsistent Domi wouldn't get it done 

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4 hours ago, Windoe said:

MontreHall*-Suzuki-Drouin
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Kovalchuk/Domi^-Kotkaniemi-Armia
Lehkonen-Evans/Weal-Byron

*Montreal - Hall - MontreHall (hey? hey? nice right?)...the MontreHall Canadiens
^If Domi will play LW, if not, trade Domi and Sign Kovalchuk

Want no part of Hall, everywhere he has gone the teams have actually gotten worse.  Edmonton was better without him, Jersey actually got much worse once they acquired him and Phoenix statistically got worse with him as well.  I would prefer us to go after Laine, Barzal

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9 hours ago, campabee82 said:

I would trade for Laine only if the max going out is something like Domi + Mete + 2020 1st + Juulsen/Fleury any more than that and the cost out weighs the gain IMO

9 hours ago, arpem-can said:

  I tend to agree it would take probably too much and there's no guarantee Laine won't hold out as a UFA the next year ...the only way it happens is if an agreement is in place with his agent beforehand as to what it would take to sign him money -wise with term ...I think Carolina with their own Finnish connection is in a better to position to acquire him than Montreal ( let's not forget  the offer sheet for Aho at $8.5 mill and 5 yrs was paid immediately by the Canes  ).....I still think Laine stays with the Jets ...his talent is through the roof whether he's streaky or not ...... Mete , Juulsen , Fleury , a 16th overall and an inconsistent Domi wouldn't get it done 

There’s no way I would give up 16th overall this year in a deep draft. 2021 pick perhaps. While I concur Laine is a potential generational talent there is too much risk if he’s not a guaranteed signing beyond this coming year. There’s also a ton more risk of Suzuki, KK Romanov, Drouin returning to form, and our 5/6 RHD pairing all progressing. While many hab fans will moan on the short window of Weber and Price, this year is not IMO the year to swing for the fences with Laine. One player like Laine is not going to vault us into top 4 contending status and I haven’t seen any gm who with 1-2 free agents has taken a bottom feeding barely top 16 like the habs into top contenders. We are on a good trajectory- I would rather swing for the fences next year with a top free agent if Laine will not commit to here for the next 4 years. 

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6 minutes ago, claremont said:

There’s no way I would give up 16th overall this year in a deep draft. 2021 pick perhaps. While I concur Laine is a potential generational talent there is too much risk if he’s not a guaranteed signing beyond this coming year. There’s also a ton more risk of Suzuki, KK Romanov, Drouin returning to form, and our 5/6 RHD pairing all progressing. While many hab fans will moan on the short window of Weber and Price, this year is not IMO the year to swing for the fences with Laine. One player like Laine is not going to vault us into top 4 contending status and I haven’t seen any gm who with 1-2 free agents has taken a bottom feeding barely top 16 like the habs into top contenders. We are on a good trajectory- I would rather swing for the fences next year with a top free agent if Laine will not commit to here for the next 4 years. 

With the Habs futile drafting history, especially in the first round, I would take the chance and go after Laine.  It is still said, that the team that acquires the best player, wins the trade. Of course, some trades are measured by the first team to win the Stanley Cup. Either way, I go after Laine. I think that he becomes a restricted free agent, when this contract is up? He would feel comfortable on this team, and the fans would idolize him. So what if he becomes a 9 million dollar man. It's been forever, that the Habs have had a star/impact player not named Carey. I guess this is all moot now, as I am hearing that the Habs are not interested in Laine.  Too bad! As for Carolina being a better fit?  Definitely not. Technically, they are a budget team and they don't draw enough fans to be able to spend to the max willingly. That's why Bergevin tried to offer sheet Aho.  Figured the up front bonuses would hurt them, and hurt them it did. Colorado - probably in the best position to acquire Laine.

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Per LeBrun, via RDS: Marc Bergevin is not pursuing Patrick Laine. 

LeBrun is generally pretty knowledgeable (and connected) so I assume he's either heard this directly from MB or from a top source with the team.   Its possible that MB and Cheveldayoff have already spoken & he knows the price is too high (I still think the Jets would be looking for either JK or Suzuki as part of the return package) but i almost feel, based on a few of his comments recently, like he has a deal in place for someone else & they are just waiting (for what, i dont know). 

 

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10 minutes ago, electron58 said:

With the Habs futile drafting history, especially in the first round, I would take the chance and go after Laine.   Either way, I go after Laine. I think that he becomes a restricted free agent, when this contract is up? He would feel comfortable on this team, and the fans would idolize him. So what if he becomes a 9 million dollar man. It's been forever, that the Habs have had a star/impact player not named Carey. I guess this is all moot now, as I am hearing that the Habs are not interested in Laine.  Too bad! As for Carolina being a better fit?  Definitely not. Technically, they are a budget team and they don't draw enough fans to be able to spend to the max willingly. That's why Bergevin tried to offer sheet Aho.  Figured the up front bonuses would hurt them, and hurt them it did. Colorado - probably in the best position to acquire Laine.

If Pierre LeBrun said via RDS / hockey 360, that Bergevin is out of the Laine sweepstakes this year, then it must be true. Would be good to take a run at Laine next year assuming we are still smart with our cap room. I still hope we can get a goal scorer in any trade for Domi or Danault 

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3 hours ago, claremont said:

If Pierre LeBrun said via RDS / hockey 360, that Bergevin is out of the Laine sweepstakes this year, then it must be true. Would be good to take a run at Laine next year assuming we are still smart with our cap room. I still hope we can get a goal scorer in any trade for Domi or Danault 

The question is, who? Who else is available? I don't know if Bergevin will like Hoffman, because of the drama in Ottawa. Maybe somebody on Tampa Bay? I'm sure Julien Brisboise would like the chance to fleece Bergy again. Not only did Briseboise gain cap room, he got rid of a problem child in Drouin. I'm not sold on Josh Anderson, unless the cost is minimal. Maybe Ehlers out of the 'Peg?

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12 minutes ago, electron58 said:

The question is, who? Who else is available? I don't know if Bergevin will like Hoffman, because of the drama in Ottawa. Maybe somebody on Tampa Bay? I'm sure Julien Brisboise would like the chance to fleece Bergy again. Not only did Briseboise gain cap room, he got rid of a problem child in Drouin. I'm not sold on Josh Anderson, unless the cost is minimal. Maybe Ehlers out of the 'Peg?

To be fair, it was Yzerman who “fleeced” MB... For what it’s worth...

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15 minutes ago, electron58 said:

The question is, who? Who else is available? I don't know if Bergevin will like Hoffman, because of the drama in Ottawa. Maybe somebody on Tampa Bay? I'm sure Julien Brisboise would like the chance to fleece Bergy again. Not only did Briseboise gain cap room, he got rid of a problem child in Drouin. I'm not sold on Josh Anderson, unless the cost is minimal. Maybe Ehlers out of the 'Peg?

I think there's 2 roads that MB may take. 

UFA:  meaning probably a 2nd tier player. Its really unlikely we sign Hall (plus he's LW where we actually have depth) but there are guys like Hoffman as you mentioned and plenty of middle six guys. I could easily see MB signing a combination of Kovalchuk and Dadonov.  He has always valued quantity over quality.

Trade:  One thing that really stuck with me from his soundbytes was that he was targeting a "big name scorer."   Im not sure who is available - and who we'd have to give up. We're in a position, with all our depth, that 

2 minutes ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

To be fair, it was Yzerman who “fleeced” MB... For what it’s worth...

I still disagree it was a fleecing. At the time Sergachev was a prospect. A highly touted one, yes but the risk was all TB's   He's worked out (and we desperately need a guy like him in our system) so it has looked better than it could have, but it was still, 1 for 1 a fair trade. It was just totally and utterly not what we needed. 

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2 hours ago, electron58 said:

Good Catch! I guess I tried too hard to forget about that terrible off season. Thanks!

Lol not that it matters.

2 hours ago, maas_art said:

I still disagree it was a fleecing. At the time Sergachev was a prospect. A highly touted one, yes but the risk was all TB's   He's worked out (and we desperately need a guy like him in our system) so it has looked better than it could have, but it was still, 1 for 1 a fair trade. It was just totally and utterly not what we needed

And I agree, in hindsight it might have been a poor decision, but not a fleecing, hence the “”. 

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5 hours ago, maas_art said:

Trade:  One thing that really stuck with me from his soundbytes was that he was targeting a "big name scorer."   Im not sure who is available - and who we'd have to give up.

In terms of trade candidates, Laine is clearly the biggest name scorer out there who's rumored to be available, so it's surprising that the Habs wouldn't be at least sniffing around this. Taylor Hall is the big UFA name, although I think Dadonov might end up being a more reasonable target for Bergevin.

In the RFA category, you have to figure MB would be drooling over Pierre-Luc Dubois, although he's also likely to be a big gun-shy about another RFA offersheet. But maybe he threatens an offersheet and gives a big trade offer instead...

Other trade targets among teams that are a bit tighter against the cap or that might be trying to re-build? Nylander is an obvious one. Rickard Rakell has dropped off a bit production-wise the past two years, but he's a previous 30-goal scorer. Viktor Arvidsson in Nashville? Tomas Hertl in SJ? Johnny Gaudreau in Calgary? Ehlers we've discussed. And then a guy who's probably no longer "available" but who MB might work hard to pry out of Florida would be Jonathan Huberdeau...

 

 

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21 hours ago, maas_art said:

I think there's 2 roads that MB may take. 

UFA:  meaning probably a 2nd tier player. Its really unlikely we sign Hall (plus he's LW where we actually have depth) but there are guys like Hoffman as you mentioned and plenty of middle six guys. I could easily see MB signing a combination of Kovalchuk and Dadonov.  He has always valued quantity over quality.

Trade:  One thing that really stuck with me from his soundbytes was that he was targeting a "big name scorer."   Im not sure who is available - and who we'd have to give up. We're in a position, with all our depth, that 

I still disagree it was a fleecing. At the time Sergachev was a prospect. A highly touted one, yes but the risk was all TB's   He's worked out (and we desperately need a guy like him in our system) so it has looked better than it could have, but it was still, 1 for 1 a fair trade. It was just totally and utterly not what we needed. 

True, there is no guarantee, but I watched Sergachev play many times, and the guy could do it all.  A man playing a boys game you could say. He was already a big guy, great skater & a  good shot. If there was a knock against him, it was that he was too nonchalant.  He was that confident! Plus, he did not shy away from the rough stuff. Montreal had a need for high end defencemen.  Sergachev never got the chance that they gave Mete. Montreal also needed a center.  So, they tried to fit a square into a circle, that being, Drouin.  Never having played center in the NHL. If ever there was a time for Drouin to step it up, it was when Montreal was fighting for a playoff spot, and just missed out.  If Drouin would have contributed "anything" - Montreal would have made it.  But he was invisible! So I guess, on paper, it may have been a reasonable trade, but you "draft" #1 & #2 defencemen, &  #1 centers. And if you remember who we had on defence, it definitely was not an area of strength.

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On 9/24/2020 at 9:54 PM, campabee82 said:

I would trade for Laine only if the max going out is something like Domi + Mete + 2020 1st + Juulsen/Fleury any more than that and the cost out weighs the gain IMO

I think even that's a bit much

Domi + Mete + 1st sure ...  maybe Juulsen/Fleury if you reduce that 1st to a 2nd or 3rd.

Essentially Jets would be getting their 2nd line C, two mid/bottom D (Mete/Fleury) and a 2nd rounder ... that's 4 top 9 players for Laine.

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7 hours ago, HabsAlways said:

I think even that's a bit much

Domi + Mete + 1st sure ...  maybe Juulsen/Fleury if you reduce that 1st to a 2nd or 3rd.

Essentially Jets would be getting their 2nd line C, two mid/bottom D (Mete/Fleury) and a 2nd rounder ... that's 4 top 9 players for Laine.

Like I said that was the max. I would prefer to pay for Laine. I wonder if you could get Laine for Domi + Chiarot + 2nd that fills 2 of their biggest needs. 2C and top 4 D with size. I think that would kind of be a dream scenario though huh.

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12 hours ago, campabee82 said:

Like I said that was the max. I would prefer to pay for Laine. I wonder if you could get Laine for Domi + Chiarot + 2nd that fills 2 of their biggest needs. 2C and top 4 D with size. I think that would kind of be a dream scenario though huh.

I would still overpay for Laine. We have a lot of prospects in the pipeline. We still have a lot of draft picks.  There will be players available on the unrestricted free agent market for Bargain Bergy.  If there is even a chance?  We should do it. We can only protect so many players from the Kraken.  Why not have elite players?  I don't mind helping Winnipeg out. I still stand by this statement I posted earlier.  "Some of Drouin, Domi, Byron, Danault, Juulsen, Fleury, Mete, 2020 #1, 2021 #1...would probaby get it done.  He!!, they can have them all! "  Obviously, not all, but you can only use (keep) so many of your prospects. Why not turn them into something, like Laine. There will still be some prospects coming up the pipeline. I say if there is a chance, we need to pull the trigger. Laine will make everybody better - and he's not even in his prime!

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14 minutes ago, electron58 said:

I would still overpay for Laine. We have a lot of prospects in the pipeline. We still have a lot of draft picks.  There will be players available on the unrestricted free agent market for Bargain Bergy.  If there is even a chance?  We should do it. We can only protect so many players from the Kraken.  Why not have elite players?  I don't mind helping Winnipeg out. I still stand by this statement I posted earlier.  "Some of Drouin, Domi, Byron, Danault, Juulsen, Fleury, Mete, 2020 #1, 2021 #1...would probaby get it done.  He!!, they can have them all! "  Obviously, not all, but you can only use (keep) so many of your prospects. Why not turn them into something, like Laine. There will still be some prospects coming up the pipeline. I say if there is a chance, we need to pull the trigger. Laine will make everybody better - and he's not even in his prime!

i honestly don't think that would do it. They are probably looking for Kotkaniemi as part of the deal. I would love Laine though and would consider it. Sounds like MB is not considering it, however. Doesn't look like it will happen. 

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On 9/25/2020 at 2:00 PM, maas_art said:

I still disagree it was a fleecing. At the time Sergachev was a prospect. A highly touted one, yes but the risk was all TB's   He's worked out (and we desperately need a guy like him in our system) so it has looked better than it could have, but it was still, 1 for 1 a fair trade. It was just totally and utterly not what we needed. 

So, I responded to your post earlier.  Here is a comment by Engels. (not sure what everybody's take is on his credibility but.....)

"People talk about the Sergachev-Drouin trade like Marc Bergevin had no idea what he was giving up. He knew how good Sergachev was and knew what he would be. "

Now that I think about it, that was the year of the purge - of the Russians. Does anybody remember who they were? I'd have to research it, but there were quite a few.

 

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28 minutes ago, habsisme said:

i honestly don't think that would do it. They are probably looking for Kotkaniemi as part of the deal. I would love Laine though and would consider it. Sounds like MB is not considering it, however. Doesn't look like it will happen. 

Probably not.  But I would only consider the options that I listed.  "Some of Drouin, Domi, Byron, Danault, Juulsen, Fleury, Mete, 2020 #1, 2021 #1...and any other draft picks necessary.

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4 minutes ago, electron58 said:

So, I responded to your post earlier.  Here is a comment by Engels. (not sure what everybody's take is on his credibility but.....)

"People talk about the Sergachev-Drouin trade like Marc Bergevin had no idea what he was giving up. He knew how good Sergachev was and knew what he would be. "

Now that I think about it, that was the year of the purge - of the Russians. Does anybody remember who they were? I'd have to research it, but there were quite a few.

 

yes, I agree we all knew what Sergachev was, we just thought (i think reasonably) that Drouin was better than he is. He's turned out to be a very skilled 2nd line forward, not a first-line talent. 

At least he seems to have some chemistry with Suzuki and he still is our most skilled player

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