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55 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I don't see why we couldn't include Norlinder or Caufield + KK in a deal for Dubois. I agree on everyone else being untouchable and we don't need Dubois, if that's not enough than move on

The reason I wouldn't consider KK + one of Norlinder or Caufield is this PLD's expected ceiling is what 70 points and 30+ goals. KK's ceiling alone is about the same but with 20-25 goals. Cole's expected ceiling is around 50-60+ points and 30+ goals. Both KK and Caufield and Norlinder for that matter could reach their ceilings in 1-3 years. for arguments sake lets leave Norlinder out of this for now. Lets say Caufield signs his ELC on April 11th and is available to play for Montreal that night (assume that covid is over and quarantines are lifted). IF Caufield makes the team and puts up 10 goals and 5 assists (trying to be conservative) in 14 games and KK puts up 45-50 points and 20 goals over the course of the year. That already equals PLD-s ceiling of 70 points and 30 Goals making this trade a lateral move at best and that is without even considering that both Caufield and KK have higher ceilings. 

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

The reason I wouldn't consider KK + one of Norlinder or Caufield is this PLD's expected ceiling is what 70 points and 30+ goals. KK's ceiling alone is about the same but with 20-25 goals. Cole's expected ceiling is around 50-60+ points and 30+ goals. Both KK and Caufield and Norlinder for that matter could reach their ceilings in 1-3 years. for arguments sake lets leave Norlinder out of this for now. Lets say Caufield signs his ELC on April 11th and is available to play for Montreal that night (assume that covid is over and quarantines are lifted). IF Caufield makes the team and puts up 10 goals and 5 assists (trying to be conservative) in 14 games and KK puts up 45-50 points and 20 goals over the course of the year. That already equals PLD-s ceiling of 70 points and 30 Goals making this trade a lateral move at best and that is without even considering that both Caufield and KK have higher ceilings. 

I think you're making the mistake a lot of people are making here; counting your chickens before they hatch. KK looks like he could become a top 2 center but he's not there yet and there is no guarantee. Suzuki is actually doing it and doing it now, it's clear he's a star, I don't feel the same about KK and I don't think anyone should. PLD is at about Suzuki's level; he's already doing it, there is way less risk with him. 

There are lots of players with high ceilings that never amount to anything in this league. KK could easily just remain what he is now, a middle 6 center. Caufield may never score a goal in the NHL, you talk about his high ceiling but at his size, his floor is in the basement. Of course, I'm hoping for more out of these guys and am a fan of them personally but if I can get PLD, I make that move. 

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3 minutes ago, habsisme said:

I think you're making the mistake a lot of people are making here; counting your chickens before they hatch. KK looks like he could become a top 2 center but he's not there yet and there is no guarantee. Suzuki is actually doing it and doing it now, it's clear he's a star, I don't feel the same about KK and I don't think anyone should. PLD is at about Suzuki's level; he's already doing it, there is way less risk with him. 

There are lots of players with high ceilings that never amount to anything in this league. KK could easily just remain what he is now, a middle 6 center. Caufield may never score a goal in the NHL, you talk about his high ceiling but at his size, his floor is in the basement. Of course, I'm hoping for more out of these guys and am a fan of them personally but if I can get PLD, I make that move. 

Not me, I am of the mindset of, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Cause a lot of the times GM's try to fix what is already working just fine and they fail miserably. 

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2 hours ago, campabee82 said:

The reason I wouldn't consider KK + one of Norlinder or Caufield is this PLD's expected ceiling is what 70 points and 30+ goals. KK's ceiling alone is about the same but with 20-25 goals. Cole's expected ceiling is around 50-60+ points and 30+ goals. Both KK and Caufield and Norlinder for that matter could reach their ceilings in 1-3 years. for arguments sake lets leave Norlinder out of this for now. Lets say Caufield signs his ELC on April 11th and is available to play for Montreal that night (assume that covid is over and quarantines are lifted). IF Caufield makes the team and puts up 10 goals and 5 assists (trying to be conservative) in 14 games and KK puts up 45-50 points and 20 goals over the course of the year. That already equals PLD-s ceiling of 70 points and 30 Goals making this trade a lateral move at best and that is without even considering that both Caufield and KK have higher ceilings. 

Isn't that a 60 goal pace? Right out of college.. wow. i'll assume your joking   

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3 minutes ago, booboo_mtl said:

Isn't that a 60 goal pace? Right out of college.. wow. i'll assume your joking   

I didn't do the math lol, but it is not unrealistic that a player has 10 goals in 14 games then goals on a cold streak. Goal scorers are streaky.

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6 hours ago, campabee82 said:

. IF Caufield makes the team and puts up 10 goals and 5 assists (trying to be conservative) in 14 games 

10 goals in his first 14 NHL games is a conservative estimate ?  :rolleyes:

5 hours ago, habsisme said:

I think you're making the mistake a lot of people are making here; counting your chickens before they hatch. KK looks like he could become a top 2 center but he's not there yet and there is no guarantee. Suzuki is actually doing it and doing it now, it's clear he's a star, I don't feel the same about KK and I don't think anyone should. PLD is at about Suzuki's level; he's already doing it, there is way less risk with him. 

There are lots of players with high ceilings that never amount to anything in this league. KK could easily just remain what he is now, a middle 6 center. Caufield may never score a goal in the NHL, you talk about his high ceiling but at his size, his floor is in the basement. Of course, I'm hoping for more out of these guys and am a fan of them personally but if I can get PLD, I make that move. 

This.   

again, im not saying i would trade for PLD. I really like him but I also really like what we have right now - but if the team truly, honestly, believe's we're able to compete right now then replacing a better player NOW with a player (or players) who may or may not reach that level in 1, 2 or 3 years.... 

IMHo thats the only reason you even consider trading someone like JK  for PLD right now: the next 1-2 years. 

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On 2021-01-20 at 11:58 AM, habsisme said:

I don't see why we couldn't include Norlinder or Caufield + KK in a deal for Dubois. I agree on everyone else being untouchable and we don't need Dubois, if that's not enough than move on

Agreed. 
 

id prefer KK and Drouin. 
 

with expansion coming up I’m ok jerking system guys and losing 2 for 1. Drouin will be made available any way imo. 

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On 1/20/2021 at 11:58 AM, habsisme said:

I don't see why we couldn't include Norlinder or Caufield + KK in a deal for Dubois. I agree on everyone else being untouchable and we don't need Dubois, if that's not enough than move on

I would trade Caufield if I had to, but Norlinder is off the table for me. Having seen the way he skates and handles the puck, he's got certain skills that are just really hard to find. His floor isn't as good as a prospect like Romanov's but his ceiling is higher. Romanov will probably be a dependable middle-pairing guy with a chance at being a decent #2 guy if all pans out. Norlinder might flame out, but he also has the potential to be a true #1 offensive D-man who quarterbacks your PP. Certain scouts have said he has the potential to be the best Swedish defenceman since Erik Karlsson. You just can't sell low on that type of top end potential. Conversely, Caufield's value as a prospect is probably as high as it will get. He's proven everything he can at the college level and been a top-notch scorer. He'll never be a two-way player. He'll never be a power forward. Everyone knows they're getting a smaller player who's crafty at finding open space in the O-zone and who's got an electric shot. It's a great skill and you need to find guys who can do that, but I feel like we all know what we're getting with Caufield. I don't worry that he's going to become something nobody saw coming, whereas I worry that'll happen with Norlinder.

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22 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

I would trade Caufield if I had to, but Norlinder is off the table for me. Having seen the way he skates and handles the puck, he's got certain skills that are just really hard to find. His floor isn't as good as a prospect like Romanov's but his ceiling is higher. Romanov will probably be a dependable middle-pairing guy with a chance at being a decent #2 guy if all pans out. Norlinder might flame out, but he also has the potential to be a true #1 offensive D-man who quarterbacks your PP. Certain scouts have said he has the potential to be the best Swedish defenceman since Erik Karlsson. You just can't sell low on that type of top end potential. Conversely, Caufield's value as a prospect is probably as high as it will get. He's proven everything he can at the college level and been a top-notch scorer. He'll never be a two-way player. He'll never be a power forward. Everyone knows they're getting a smaller player who's crafty at finding open space in the O-zone and who's got an electric shot. It's a great skill and you need to find guys who can do that, but I feel like we all know what we're getting with Caufield. I don't worry that he's going to become something nobody saw coming, whereas I worry that'll happen with Norlinder.

fair enough, I see what you mean about Caufield being sold high  and Norlinder with much more potential

I still stand by the willingness to trade KK + for PLD but I'm now realizing a lot of his success was with Panarin and PLD was back to being solid but not a #1 last year. I'd like to see what he does this year before making any big moves. I have feeling Columbus is sitting on a quickly diminishing asset 

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2 hours ago, habsisme said:

fair enough, I see what you mean about Caufield being sold high  and Norlinder with much more potential

I still stand by the willingness to trade KK + for PLD but I'm now realizing a lot of his success was with Panarin and PLD was back to being solid but not a #1 last year. I'd like to see what he does this year before making any big moves. I have feeling Columbus is sitting on a quickly diminishing asset 

No kidding, PLD got benched for most of the game tonight. He seems to have pretty much stopped trying, which doesn't say much for his attitude. I wouldn't say no to him on the Habs, but the longer this draws on, the more you have to demand Clb meet your demands for a trade. And watching JK's line play well, you have to wonder if it even makes sense to disrupt the chemistry on this team and trade younger, more affordable players for a problem. If Clb wants to take Drouin and other pieces for Dubois, then sure. But I'm wondering more and more why we would deal a valuable piece to them any more.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

No kidding, PLD got benched for most of the game tonight. He seems to have pretty much stopped trying, which doesn't say much for his attitude. I wouldn't say no to him on the Habs, but the longer this draws on, the more you have to demand Clb meet your demands for a trade. And watching JK's line play well, you have to wonder if it even makes sense to disrupt the chemistry on this team and trade younger, more affordable players for a problem. If Clb wants to take Drouin and other pieces for Dubois, then sure. But I'm wondering more and more why we would deal a valuable piece to them any more.

You're saying Drouin is a valuable piece?

 

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7 hours ago, electron58 said:

You're saying Drouin is a valuable piece?

 

No, I'm saying that if Clb was prepared to build the trade around Drouin, he's an expendable part for us to some degree. As I mentioned with respect to other players, you kind of know what you're getting with Drouin and he's not going to cause you to feel like you're dealing an unknown with the potential for the trade to come back and bite you. He's a decent 2nd-line player, he's not a guy you build your team around though. I highly doubt Clb would accept that, but with all that's going on and PLD's stock being low, his trying to force a trade to a high-profile market like Mtl, and our playing well and not having to bow to other team's demands, we should be the ones dictating the circumstances of a trade right now. What reason is there for us right now to put Kotkaniemi or Suzuki in a deal? I don't see one.

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

No, I'm saying that if Clb was prepared to build the trade around Drouin, he's an expendable part for us to some degree. As I mentioned with respect to other players, you kind of know what you're getting with Drouin and he's not going to cause you to feel like you're dealing an unknown with the potential for the trade to come back and bite you. He's a decent 2nd-line player, he's not a guy you build your team around though. I highly doubt Clb would accept that, but with all that's going on and PLD's stock being low, his trying to force a trade to a high-profile market like Mtl, and our playing well and not having to bow to other team's demands, we should be the ones dictating the circumstances of a trade right now. What reason is there for us right now to put Kotkaniemi or Suzuki in a deal? I don't see one.

Yeah, I'm not surrendering a top asset for PLD right now. He wants out, Columbus is not in a position of strength... I'm keeping Romanov's, Suzuki's, and Kotkaniemi's names out of it. I'm open to acquiring the guy, but not at the expense of one of our top young players.

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11 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

No kidding, PLD got benched for most of the game tonight. He seems to have pretty much stopped trying, which doesn't say much for his attitude. I wouldn't say no to him on the Habs, but the longer this draws on, the more you have to demand Clb meet your demands for a trade. And watching JK's line play well, you have to wonder if it even makes sense to disrupt the chemistry on this team and trade younger, more affordable players for a problem. If Clb wants to take Drouin and other pieces for Dubois, then sure. But I'm wondering more and more why we would deal a valuable piece to them any more.

This is exactly what i was thinking (re: bolded part) when he basically skated around oblivious to the game last night.  Its clearly intentional:  Trade me or i wont play properly - but its not spinning him in a positive light.

If MB, for example, was unsure about trading for him, a stunt like last night would probably make him say no tbh. 

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3 minutes ago, maas_art said:

This is exactly what i was thinking (re: bolded part) when he basically skated around oblivious to the game last night.  Its clearly intentional:  Trade me or i wont play properly - but its not spinning him in a positive light.

If MB, for example, was unsure about trading for him, a stunt like last night would probably make him say no tbh. 

I'd be leery of adding a cancer like that to the room myself. Totally unprofessional effort by him last night. He's being paid huge money to perform, so if he has an issue with the coach or team and needs to be moved, then he let's his agent deal with it. Do your job man.

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I bet playing under Torts doesn't help his motivation. Torts always seems like a man-child who coaches a bunch of other 20-something-year-olds (i.e. kids). Dubois's effort last night seems to be a generalization based on one single play in the offensive zone... Then Torts benches him for the remainder of the game.

If we end up making an offer for PLD, I am centering around someone like Drouin, as Ted has suggested. Cap dollars are similar, making the deal easier to navigate.

CLB:
Jonathan Drouin ($5.5 million)
Victor Mete ($0.735 million)
Ryan Poehling ($0.925 million)

MTL:
Pierre-Luc Dubois ($5 million)

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3 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I bet playing under Torts doesn't help his motivation. Torts always seems like a man-child who coaches a bunch of other 20-something-year-olds (i.e. kids). Dubois's effort last night seems to be a generalization based on one single play in the offensive zone... Then Torts benches him for the remainder of the game.

If we end up making an offer for PLD, I am centering around someone like Drouin, as Ted has suggested. Cap dollars are similar, making the deal easier to navigate.

CLB:
Jonathan Drouin ($5.5 million)
Victor Mete ($0.735 million)
Ryan Poehling ($0.925 million)

MTL:
Pierre-Luc Dubois ($5 million)

Can you imagine JD with Torts? :4224:

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29 minutes ago, H_T_L said:

I'd be leery of adding a cancer like that to the room myself. Totally unprofessional effort by him last night. He's being paid huge money to perform, so if he has an issue with the coach or team and needs to be moved, then he let's his agent deal with it. Do your job man.

Yup, unless we are buying really really low (like no roster players) ... I'd pass on PLD after that display.    Shows his professionalism is severely lacking.

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19 minutes ago, HabsAlways said:

Yup, unless we are buying really really low (like no roster players) ... I'd pass on PLD after that display.    Shows his professionalism is severely lacking.

Most I would give up in terms of balancing salary would be Drouin + Kulak + 2nd. Personally though I would stay away from PLD at this point

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55 minutes ago, maas_art said:

This is exactly what i was thinking (re: bolded part) when he basically skated around oblivious to the game last night.  Its clearly intentional:  Trade me or i wont play properly - but its not spinning him in a positive light.

If MB, for example, was unsure about trading for him, a stunt like last night would probably make him say no tbh. 

 

36 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I bet playing under Torts doesn't help his motivation. Torts always seems like a man-child who coaches a bunch of other 20-something-year-olds (i.e. kids). Dubois's effort last night seems to be a generalization based on one single play in the offensive zone... Then Torts benches him for the remainder of the game.

If we end up making an offer for PLD, I am centering around someone like Drouin, as Ted has suggested. Cap dollars are similar, making the deal easier to navigate.

CLB:
Jonathan Drouin ($5.5 million)
Victor Mete ($0.735 million)
Ryan Poehling ($0.925 million)

MTL:
Pierre-Luc Dubois ($5 million)

And to be clear, I would absolutely still trade for PLD if the price was right. The point is not that he doesn't have value, the point is that his stock right now should be at its lowest point. He's asked for a trade, he's stated he wants to go to a high-profile hockey city, he's stated that Montreal is his preferred destination. Now he's showed that he's willing to give up on his coach and teammates if he doesn't get his way. Sure, Tortorella seems like a horrible boss and horrible person in general but there's nothing to say that PLD won't come here and in two years decide he wants to quit on Montreal or that he won't pout if he's not the 1C or so on.

So knowing all this, PLD's value and what you're willing to offer Clb has to largely reflect this. If he was worth X amount of trade assets last year, now we're in a situation where he's on a meh bridge contract with no long-term lock-in and he's shown there are other issues that need to be considered. His value now is lower than it was 6 months ago and it's lower than it was 5 days ago. So whereas a week ago I would have entertained Kotkaniemi as part of the deal, now we're looking at a player we have who performed well last playoffs and who's started the year playing relatively well, who's on a cost-friendlier contract, who's younger, who's improving, and who seems to have a better attitude and a will to learn. He showed maturity owning up for bad penalty the other night. So you collect this information and you put this together and now I'd say to Clb, yeah, we'll look at PLD but now the offer is based around Drouin, not Kotkaniemi and certainly not Suzuki. I'm absolutely on board with buying PLD low but Clb has to own trading him at his lowest value. I've said the same thing about the Habs in the past. We could have traded Galchenyuk when he put up nearly a point per game playing as a 1C for 25 games. But we didn't. We traded him after playing him as a 4th line winger and running his name through the mud. We could have reportedly traded Subban for Draisaitl and Nurse and more. But Subban's value now is significantly lower and Draisaitl's has never been higher. PLD's value is as low as it's been since he was drafted. Now's the time to go get him IF Kekkalainen is willing to accept what he's worth.

 

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7 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

 

And to be clear, I would absolutely still trade for PLD if the price was right. The point is not that he doesn't have value, the point is that his stock right now should be at its lowest point. He's asked for a trade, he's stated he wants to go to a high-profile hockey city, he's stated that Montreal is his preferred destination. Now he's showed that he's willing to give up on his coach and teammates if he doesn't get his way. Sure, Tortorella seems like a horrible boss and horrible person in general but there's nothing to say that PLD won't come here and in two years decide he wants to quit on Montreal or that he won't pout if he's not the 1C or so on.

So knowing all this, PLD's value and what you're willing to offer Clb has to largely reflect this. If he was worth X amount of trade assets last year, now we're in a situation where he's on a meh bridge contract with no long-term lock-in and he's shown there are other issues that need to be considered. His value now is lower than it was 6 months ago and it's lower than it was 5 days ago. So whereas a week ago I would have entertained Kotkaniemi as part of the deal, now we're looking at a player we have who performed well last playoffs and who's started the year playing relatively well, who's on a cost-friendlier contract, who's younger, who's improving, and who seems to have a better attitude and a will to learn. He showed maturity owning up for bad penalty the other night. So you collect this information and you put this together and now I'd say to Clb, yeah, we'll look at PLD but now the offer is based around Drouin, not Kotkaniemi and certainly not Suzuki. I'm absolutely on board with buying PLD low but Clb has to own trading him at his lowest value. I've said the same thing about the Habs in the past. We could have traded Galchenyuk when he put up nearly a point per game playing as a 1C for 25 games. But we didn't. We traded him after playing him as a 4th line winger and running his name through the mud. We could have reportedly traded Subban for Draisaitl and Nurse and more. But Subban's value now is significantly lower and Draisaitl's has never been higher. PLD's value is as low as it's been since he was drafted. Now's the time to go get him IF Kekkalainen is willing to accept what he's worth.

 

Have to agree with this, Torts may be doing us a favor by riding this guy hard, he is obviously not the type of player that can take that kind of coaching and we can now offer less for him as we don't need him he is just a nice to have kind of guy.

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1 hour ago, jennifer_rocket said:

I bet playing under Torts doesn't help his motivation. Torts always seems like a man-child who coaches a bunch of other 20-something-year-olds (i.e. kids). Dubois's effort last night seems to be a generalization based on one single play in the offensive zone... Then Torts benches him for the remainder of the game.

If we end up making an offer for PLD, I am centering around someone like Drouin, as Ted has suggested. Cap dollars are similar, making the deal easier to navigate.

CLB:
Jonathan Drouin ($5.5 million)
Victor Mete ($0.735 million)
Ryan Poehling ($0.925 million)

MTL:
Pierre-Luc Dubois ($5 million)

Obviously id do that deal in a heartbeat - you getthe best player and dont give up much (Drouin) that we're really "using right now" - but Im not sure Columbus takes it. I guess it depends if anyone else puts in a better offer. They clearly need to move him *now.* 

 

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yeah you know I was pushing to trade KK but the more I think about it, the more I feel like I overvalued PLD, especially in light of recent events. 

I actually like Drouin a lot this year so I'm not jumping to move him either. I know we're thinking money in, money out but I don't know if it makes sense to make the trade in season. I'd rather move someone like Byron in terms of money, and load them up with draft picks and prospects as the real meat of the deal. Caufield Ghule Byron, a first (we have so many draft picks we could literally give them one for each round and still have a good draft). Columbus wants a win-now player, but those trades are so hard to make, they have to think of it as selling an asset for the future, and that's where Habs can make a good offer. 

If we did get PLD and kept KK, do you think we would move KK to the wing, assuming we kept Danault? 

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