H_T_L

2019-20 State Of The Habs

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54 minutes ago, habs1952 said:

Would Tyson Barrie be of use to us?

Had we traded Petry at the deadline, he’s a guy I would have considered as a temporary replacement. Wouldn’t have been my top choice, but Barrie is okay. Not a top pair guy, but I think he holds alright in a secondary position. Might be able to snag him for a fair price too.

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3 minutes ago, MALMACIAN_CRUNCH said:

Had we traded Petry at the deadline, he’s a guy I would have considered as a temporary replacement. Wouldn’t have been my top choice, but Barrie is okay. Not a top pair guy, but I think he holds alright in a secondary position. Might be able to snag him for a fair price too.

No I have seen a lot of Barrie as my wife is an Avs fan and man the guy has skill but is highly overrated cause he sucks defensively. Imagine another Gardiner type of player that's basically what you get with Barrie. If you had Barrie paired with Weber or Chiarot Barrie would be behind the opposing net while the other team was blowing by his partner for a 2 or 3 on 0 like 25-30 times a night. As opposed to the like 4 times a night they do now

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I've talked about how the Rangers and Canucks are two examples of teams that have built back their top-end via the draft. The Rangers are another example. Instead of clinging on to their veterans and pretending they were still relevant, they just flat out admitted the fastest way back to the top was to re-tool. Trade your past prime vets for 1st rounders and prospects and develop them properly to get to the NHL.

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39 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

No I have seen a lot of Barrie as my wife is an Avs fan and man the guy has skill but is highly overrated cause he sucks defensively. Imagine another Gardiner type of player that's basically what you get with Barrie. If you had Barrie paired with Weber or Chiarot Barrie would be behind the opposing net while the other team was blowing by his partner for a 2 or 3 on 0 like 25-30 times a night. As opposed to the like 4 times a night they do now

Bingo - I get forced to watch the laffs since the missus is a season ticket holder - I would absolutely hate to have Barrie in our lineup - he’s incredibly soft and now is not the time to bring a free agent d-man into our lineup - have we not learned with Alzner and to some degree Chiarot - there is no silver bullet. If Barrie cannot score with the laffs offense he’s not lighting it up with ours 

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10 hours ago, BigTed3 said:

I know we've said this most seasons for the past 5 years, but I don't know how Geoff Molson can look at the direction Bergevin has taken this franchise and be happy. I don't know how he can believe this GM deserves to stay on. The man has no plan, he's ruined one great core's chance at a Cup and he's busy wasting a 2nd core and won't admit we need to build for the future.

The team continues to play Weber and Gallagher and Drouin when they're hurt... The team continues to play Price an inordinate amount of meaningless games, exposing him to injury and fatigue for no reason. The data shows Price has better numbers when rested and here we are running a 32 year-old's body into the ground. Stop running your veterans into the ground, start giving more opportunity to guys who might be here longer-term to figure out what they can give you. Use this time to evaluate Hudon in an offensive role. Use this time to give Evans more minutes. Use this time to give Brook 2-3 games. Use this time to make Lindgren the primary goalie and figure out what he can do. Use this time to try different players on special teams, or a different set-up on the PP or so  on.

 

I couldn't agree more. Bergevin can't explain why the team plays so well on the road and lose it on home ice. Julien has no idea what is happening. The players are at a loss. Not sure how you keep this core thinking we can make the playoffs next year. Not only that but it should be to try and build a cup contending team....not just hoping to get into the playoffs. Go big or go home!

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Not only are we continuing our feeble run of missing the playoffs, but we're on pace for far fewer regular season points than last season. We're looking at, what? 84 points this season? That's 12 less than last year's performance. Continuing to go backwards under Bergevin's tenure, but... NO WORRIES BECAUSE THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT, right?

The worst part, is Bergevin will totally be back again next season. I'm sure Molson wants the team to do well, but I bet he's happy just making tons of money. Which is unfortunate. I can't believe Bergevin's going to push 10 years in this organization.

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12 minutes ago, jennifer_rocket said:

Not only are we continuing our feeble run of missing the playoffs, but we're on pace for far fewer regular season points than last season. We're looking at, what? 84 points this season? That's 12 less than last year's performance. Continuing to go backwards under Bergevin's tenure, but... NO WORRIES BECAUSE THE FUTURE IS BRIGHT, right?

The worst part, is Bergevin will totally be back again next season. I'm sure Molson wants the team to do well, but I bet he's happy just making tons of money. Which is unfortunate. I can't believe Bergevin's going to push 10 years in this organization.

I still feel like MB is most likely safe but this is the first time Ive begun to wonder: Is Molson at least considering a change?    Its not just the fans now.  Media & even ex players have chimed in lately.  Would be very interesting to know if he's feeling pressure & at least is contemplating a shuffle. 

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1 minute ago, maas_art said:

I still feel like MB is most likely safe but this is the first time Ive begun to wonder: Is Molson at least considering a change?    Its not just the fans now.  Media & even ex players have chimed in lately.  Would be very interesting to know if he's feeling pressure & at least is contemplating a shuffle. 

Once again, i agree with you. I've been trying to avoid much of the media these past few months regarding our team as they always praise when I thought they shouldn't be, but now I see more headlines talking about how bad or mismanaged we've become. ie Eric Engels always seemed to be positive but is now posting articles au contraire

I still think we'll see new people in front of the podium in Montreal

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1 hour ago, booboo_mtl said:

Once again, i agree with you. I've been trying to avoid much of the media these past few months regarding our team as they always praise when I thought they shouldn't be, but now I see more headlines talking about how bad or mismanaged we've become. ie Eric Engels always seemed to be positive but is now posting articles au contraire

I still think we'll see new people in front of the podium in Montreal

The real question is the timing. I mean if they could somehow get an experienced GM then great but brining in a rookie GM right before the draft, held in montreal?  Might be too much of a scare for Molson & co.  With the french requirements (not going to start a debate, it is what it is) the list is limited for sure.   I still think we could have gotten Brisebois had we moved on this sooner. 


I feel like the coaching staff my be punted (or at least Julien) but MB may still get one last chance. 

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48 minutes ago, maas_art said:

The real question is the timing. I mean if they could somehow get an experienced GM then great but brining in a rookie GM right before the draft, held in montreal?  Might be too much of a scare for Molson & co.  With the french requirements (not going to start a debate, it is what it is) the list is limited for sure.   I still think we could have gotten Brisebois had we moved on this sooner. 


I feel like the coaching staff my be punted (or at least Julien) but MB may still get one last chance. 

Julien needs to go and it needs to be now. Let a new guy come in and see where the team is at now. Maybe a guy who will try Domi at the number 1 center position. Let Daneault center a shut down line. 

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2 minutes ago, tony5775 said:

Julien needs to go and it needs to be now. Let a new guy come in and see where the team is at now. Maybe a guy who will try Domi at the number 1 center position. Let Daneault center a shut down line. 

I feel like its getting more and more likely Julien will go.  I just hope we dont rehash another has been coach. 

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Another bad third period and the lack of talent getting further exposed.  Why is Price continuing to start?  There's already been two answers and the other is no faith in the backup goalie.  How soon does Bergevin end up burning Price out and is that what it will take to get a new general manager?  

 

 

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Interview in La Presse today with Marc Bergevin and Matthias Brunet. The major highlights of what Bergevin said:

- Doesn't believe in re-builds and says they're not a guarantee of anything. Won't sacrifice 1st rounders or prospects that make the team worse in the future but also won't trade away veterans for unknowns... (aka has no plan to win a Cup)

- Hopes Suzuki can evolve as a center and not hit the sophomore jinx

- Caufield is not ready to turn pro yet. The Habs want him to stay in Wisconsin another year. They said they won't stop him if he wants to go to Laval next year, but they don't think he's ready and could be over-matched playing against men. He's had struggles defensively and while they think he can still score with the puck, they don't think he has enough experience without the puck to be an impact player in the pro's yet. (so for all those thinking Caufield will be a savior next year, it looks like the Habs think he's at least one and probably 2-3 years away from the NHL)

- He's happy with Kotkaniemi's performance in Laval. Says the team has had issues with his commitment level and worth ethic here in Montreal but they can see he's working harder in Laval and improving. Adds that main thing for him to work on otherwise is lower-body strength. Says he uses his legs when he's skating but when he's in a puck battle, he doesn't get down low enough and loses battles because he doesn't use his lower body well enough.

- Believes there's a good chance Romanov comes over next year. Says he has good vision and a good attitude but that despite this, it could still be a transition for him to move to the NHL and keep up his level of play. Says the Habs think most realistic expectation is that he'll start by slotting onto the 3rd pairing. Says he views him as a guy who can become a shutdown guy against other teams' top lines by the time he's 23 or 24 (so again, no real belief that he's going to be a magic savior or partner Weber for 25 minutes a game next year and is maybe 3 years away from being a top pair guy if you believe Bergevin).

- Says if Kovalchuk comes back, it would not just be because they don't feel Caufield is ready but also because he could be a big brother figure to Romanov (again certainly sounds like MB feels they have a good shot at bringing Kovy back)

- Sees Poehling as a shutdown center down the line, a good 3rd line guy who can play against top lines. Says the worst thing for him was his hat trick last year that gave fans expectations that he's going to be an offensive player, and the Habs don't see that.

- Says July 1st free agency is a waste of time and that teams lock up players they want to and the available ones are leftovers that get overpaid.

- Says his Colorado trip was for discussions but that he and Sakic never got close on a deal and he's not holding his breathe.

- On Norlinder, says they plan on his playing one more year in Sweden then asking him to come to North America.

- On Harris, says they're happy with his development and that they will discuss with him at the end of the season about turning pro and going to Laval next year. Says he has good enough skating to do it.

- Says the Drouin trade left a hole on defence, but the team still feels JD hasn't hit full potential and that they would make the trade again with the belief JD was a better player than Sergachev at the time.

- Says the Habs will consider moving a forward for D help in the off-season, if there's an opportunity.

 

***

So all in all, a fairly realistic assessment of the team. But it goes to show that fan/media expectations for certain players isn't likely to happen. Caufield is probably not going to fix our PP or be a top 9 right winger in the next two years. Romanov is likely not going to be a top-pairing partner for Weber in the next 2 years. Kotkaniemi and Poehling remain projects. With this, it's even more clear to me that Bergevin and the Habs don't realistically see themselves as being contenders next year, which makes holding on to Petry, Weber, and Tatar even more puzzling for me.

It does, however, look like MB is willing to trade this summer. And if you look at the list of guys he doesn't seem willing to trade, the writing seems to be on the wall that the "forward" he's willing to sacrifice for D help is either going to be Tatar or Domi, and my money would be on the latter. If he wanted to trade Tatar, he could have already done it. It sounds like he doesn't plan on trading Drouin and he was never going to trade Gallagher or Danault, so my 2 cents is that Domi is going to be on the block. This is not my vision but rather what I think Bergevin believes his team will look like next year:

 

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher

Drouin-Suzuki-Kovalchuk

Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

_____-Poehling-Evans

 

________-Weber

Chiarot-Petry

Romanov-________

 

with a defenceman coming in for the top 4 in a Domi trade. I wouldn't be surprised if his first target is Brodin even though I personally think it should be Dumba. Fleury or Juulsen or Brook will compete for the last D spot on the right side, and it certainly feels like Kulak and Mete could be expendable in a trade as well.

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Interview in La Presse today with Marc Bergevin and Matthias Brunet. The major highlights of what Bergevin said:

- Doesn't believe in re-builds and says they're not a guarantee of anything. Won't sacrifice 1st rounders or prospects that make the team worse in the future but also won't trade away veterans

- Caufield is not ready to turn pro yet. The Habs want him to stay in Wisconsin another year. They said they won't stop him if he wants to go to Laval next year, but they don't think he's ready and could be over-matched playing against men.

- He's happy with Kotkaniemi's performance in Laval. Says the team has had issues with his commitment level and worth ethic here in Montreal but they can see he's working harder in Laval and improving. Adds that main thing for him to work on otherwise is lower-body strength. Says he uses his legs when he's skating but when he's in a puck battle, he doesn't get down low enough and loses battles because he doesn't use his lower body well enough.

- Believes there's a good chance Romanov comes over next year. Says he has good vision and a good attitude but that despite this, it could still be a transition for him to move to the NHL and keep up his level of play. Says the Habs think most realistic expectation is that he'll start by slotting onto the 3rd pairing. Says he views him as a guy who can become a shutdown guy against other teams' top lines by the time he's 23 or 24 (so again, no real belief that he's going to be a magic savior or partner Weber for 25 minutes a game next year and is maybe 3 years away from being a top pair guy if you believe Bergevin).

- Says if Kovalchuk comes back, it would not just be because they don't feel Caufield is ready but also because he could be a big brother figure to Romanov 

- Sees Poehling as a shutdown center down the line, a good 3rd line guy who can play against top lines. Says the worst thing for him was his hat trick last year that gave fans expectations that he's going to be an offensive player, and the Habs don't see that.

- Says July 1st free agency is a waste of time and that teams lock up players they want to and the available ones are leftovers that get overpaid.

- On Norlinder, says they plan on his playing one more year in Sweden then asking him to come to North America.

- On Harris, says they're happy with his development and that they will discuss with him at the end of the season about turning pro and going to Laval next year. Says he has good enough skating to do it.

- Says the Drouin trade left a hole on defence, but the team still feels JD hasn't hit full potential and that they would make the trade again with the belief JD was a better player than Sergachev at the time.

- Says the Habs will consider moving a forward for D help in the off-season, if there's an opportunity.

***So all in all, a fairly realistic assessment of the team. But it goes to show that fan/media expectations for certain players isn't likely to happen. Caufield is probably not going to fix our PP or be a top 9 right winger in the next two years. Romanov is likely not going to be a top-pairing partner for Weber in the next 2 years. Kotkaniemi and Poehling remain projects. With this, it's even more clear to me that Bergevin and the Habs don't realistically see themselves as being contenders next year, which makes holding on to Petry, Weber, and Tatar even more puzzling for me.

It does, however, look like MB is willing to trade this summer. And if you look at the list of guys he doesn't seem willing to trade, the writing seems to be on the wall that the "forward" he's willing to sacrifice for D help is either going to be Tatar or Domi, and my money would be on the latter. If he wanted to trade Tatar, he could have already done it. It sounds like he doesn't plan on trading Drouin and he was never going to trade Gallagher or Danault, so my 2 cents is that Domi is going to be on the block. This is not my vision but rather what I think Bergevin believes his team will look like next year:

 

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher

Drouin-Suzuki-Kovalchuk

Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

_____-Poehling-Evans

 

________-Weber

Chiarot-Petry

Romanov-________

 

with a defenceman coming in for the top 4 in a Domi trade. I wouldn't be surprised if his first target is Brodin even though I personally think it should be Dumba. Fleury or Juulsen or Brook will compete for the last D spot on the right side, and it certainly feels like Kulak and Mete could be expendable in a trade as well.

Good analysis and observations- thanks for the summary

1) Rebuilds - He’s basically admitting his failure on retooling 

2) Totally agree on Caufield - While he has had a good season, Wisconsin is mired in last place and likely an early tournament exit- Cole should learn how to win and lead.  Devils and Rangers have rushed development on Hughes and Kakko IMO and we did so too with KK

3) KK - lack of lower body strength is why we see him fall a lot in the corners or half-walls

4) Romanov - I think MB is trying to lower expectations and pressure - Personally I think this kid will surprise and will be a real deal in the span of 2-3 years due to maturity 

5) Kovy - I hope they don’t over commit - 2 year deal is enough for me

6) Harris IMO is in the mould of a Fleury Juulsen Or Kulak nothing special but solid enough as a filler 
7) I sure hope Drouin can rebound - we are at a loss for scoring 

8)  So MB preaches patience once again - we don’t have many bargaining chips besides taking on useless cap room contracts like Steve Mason, or dealing Tatar or Domi etc. - I guess I will have to wait on that return but I like both of those players and what they bring 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

Interview in La Presse today with Marc Bergevin and Matthias Brunet. The major highlights of what Bergevin said:

- Doesn't believe in re-builds and says they're not a guarantee of anything. Won't sacrifice 1st rounders or prospects that make the team worse in the future but also won't trade away veterans for unknowns... (aka has no plan to win a Cup)

[...]

- Says July 1st free agency is a waste of time and that teams lock up players they want to and the available ones are leftovers that get overpaid.

[...]

So what is he saying? If he doesn't believe in rebuilds, won't sacrifice 1st rounders/prospects to improve the team now, won't trade vets for futures to improve the team down the road, and thinks only spare parts are available on July 1st, what's his plan? Riding it out, hoping for mid-tier draft picks to develop into stars and going for a hockey trade to shake things up once in a while? I totally love the logic behind not wanting to trade unproven assets to acquire impact players because those assets could turn out to be good, yet not wanting to trade impact players for unproven assets because there's no guarantee those assets will ever be good. That's a great strategy to maintain the Status quo for as long as possible. I'm genuinely curious how he intends to get his hands on elite, game-breaking talent. Oh wait, he hasn't managed to do that in 8 years, why would he start thinking about it now.

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51 minutes ago, ChiLla said:

So what is he saying? If he doesn't believe in rebuilds, won't sacrifice 1st rounders/prospects to improve the team now, won't trade vets for futures to improve the team down the road, and thinks only spare parts are available on July 1st, what's his plan? Riding it out, hoping for mid-tier draft picks to develop into stars and going for a hockey trade to shake things up once in a while? I totally love the logic behind not wanting to trade unproven assets to acquire impact players because those assets could turn out to be good, yet not wanting to trade impact players for unproven assets because there's no guarantee those assets will ever be good. That's a great strategy to maintain the Status quo for as long as possible. I'm genuinely curious how he intends to get his hands on elite, game-breaking talent. Oh wait, he hasn't managed to do that in 8 years, why would he start thinking about it now.

Isn't that the best??

can't risk the future for the present, can't risk the present for the future. Literally telling the fans to their face we are not really trying to win. please, buy a VIP box.

 

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1 hour ago, BigTed3 said:

Interview in La Presse today with Marc Bergevin and Matthias Brunet. The major highlights of what Bergevin said:

- Doesn't believe in re-builds and says they're not a guarantee of anything. Won't sacrifice 1st rounders or prospects that make the team worse in the future but also won't trade away veterans for unknowns... (aka has no plan to win a Cup)

- Hopes Suzuki can evolve as a center and not hit the sophomore jinx

- Caufield is not ready to turn pro yet. The Habs want him to stay in Wisconsin another year. They said they won't stop him if he wants to go to Laval next year, but they don't think he's ready and could be over-matched playing against men. He's had struggles defensively and while they think he can still score with the puck, they don't think he has enough experience without the puck to be an impact player in the pro's yet. (so for all those thinking Caufield will be a savior next year, it looks like the Habs think he's at least one and probably 2-3 years away from the NHL)

- He's happy with Kotkaniemi's performance in Laval. Says the team has had issues with his commitment level and worth ethic here in Montreal but they can see he's working harder in Laval and improving. Adds that main thing for him to work on otherwise is lower-body strength. Says he uses his legs when he's skating but when he's in a puck battle, he doesn't get down low enough and loses battles because he doesn't use his lower body well enough.

- Believes there's a good chance Romanov comes over next year. Says he has good vision and a good attitude but that despite this, it could still be a transition for him to move to the NHL and keep up his level of play. Says the Habs think most realistic expectation is that he'll start by slotting onto the 3rd pairing. Says he views him as a guy who can become a shutdown guy against other teams' top lines by the time he's 23 or 24 (so again, no real belief that he's going to be a magic savior or partner Weber for 25 minutes a game next year and is maybe 3 years away from being a top pair guy if you believe Bergevin).

- Says if Kovalchuk comes back, it would not just be because they don't feel Caufield is ready but also because he could be a big brother figure to Romanov (again certainly sounds like MB feels they have a good shot at bringing Kovy back)

- Sees Poehling as a shutdown center down the line, a good 3rd line guy who can play against top lines. Says the worst thing for him was his hat trick last year that gave fans expectations that he's going to be an offensive player, and the Habs don't see that.

- Says July 1st free agency is a waste of time and that teams lock up players they want to and the available ones are leftovers that get overpaid.

- Says his Colorado trip was for discussions but that he and Sakic never got close on a deal and he's not holding his breathe.

- On Norlinder, says they plan on his playing one more year in Sweden then asking him to come to North America.

- On Harris, says they're happy with his development and that they will discuss with him at the end of the season about turning pro and going to Laval next year. Says he has good enough skating to do it.

- Says the Drouin trade left a hole on defence, but the team still feels JD hasn't hit full potential and that they would make the trade again with the belief JD was a better player than Sergachev at the time.

- Says the Habs will consider moving a forward for D help in the off-season, if there's an opportunity.

 

***

So all in all, a fairly realistic assessment of the team. But it goes to show that fan/media expectations for certain players isn't likely to happen. Caufield is probably not going to fix our PP or be a top 9 right winger in the next two years. Romanov is likely not going to be a top-pairing partner for Weber in the next 2 years. Kotkaniemi and Poehling remain projects. With this, it's even more clear to me that Bergevin and the Habs don't realistically see themselves as being contenders next year, which makes holding on to Petry, Weber, and Tatar even more puzzling for me.

It does, however, look like MB is willing to trade this summer. And if you look at the list of guys he doesn't seem willing to trade, the writing seems to be on the wall that the "forward" he's willing to sacrifice for D help is either going to be Tatar or Domi, and my money would be on the latter. If he wanted to trade Tatar, he could have already done it. It sounds like he doesn't plan on trading Drouin and he was never going to trade Gallagher or Danault, so my 2 cents is that Domi is going to be on the block. This is not my vision but rather what I think Bergevin believes his team will look like next year:

 

Tatar-Danault-Gallagher

Drouin-Suzuki-Kovalchuk

Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

_____-Poehling-Evans

 

________-Weber

Chiarot-Petry

Romanov-________

 

with a defenceman coming in for the top 4 in a Domi trade. I wouldn't be surprised if his first target is Brodin even though I personally think it should be Dumba. Fleury or Juulsen or Brook will compete for the last D spot on the right side, and it certainly feels like Kulak and Mete could be expendable in a trade as well.

 

 

 

 

 

I submit that while this may be MB and CJ's evaluation of the team and prospects I do not believe that it is the evaluation of the team. I think GM, TT and many others in the organization see Caufield and Romanov as being NHL ready now. There are many other GM's that felt like either could have stepped in this year. At the beginning of the season MB was asked what his expectations were for Caufield and MB said it was simply to go out and continue doing what he does best against harder competition which is scoring goals and if he could add some assists to make himself more of a threat offensively he sees no reason why Caufield wouldn't be signed by seasons end. Now that Caufield has accomplished all of that MB and CJ want him to add a defensive element which is a much much harder thing for an offensive guy to learn. MB has proven time and again that he doesn't know what he wants this is another example which is also why CJ's job has been so much harder than it should be these last 2 or 3 years and I am no fan of CJ so that statement there says a lot

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I am just going to attempt to fill out those spots with who I feel would be the best options if MB and CJ are no longer here after April 5th 
 
Let's start with trades
 
I like the Domi for Dumba trade and I think we could get away with a 1 for 1 deal
 
I think the Canes would do Petry for Bean and Suzuki and a 1st or 2nd
 
I feel like we should look at a trade for an unproven backup maybe Dallas would do Landon Bow for a 2nd or Arizona would do Adin Hill and a 3rd for Kulak

Tatar-N. Suzuki-Gallagher

Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Caufield

Lehkonen-Danault-R. Suzuki

Evans-Poehling-Armia

Bean-Dumba

Chiarot-Weber

Romanov-Fleury

Price

Hill/Bow

Edited by campabee82
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2 hours ago, ChiLla said:

So what is he saying? If he doesn't believe in rebuilds, won't sacrifice 1st rounders/prospects to improve the team now, won't trade vets for futures to improve the team down the road, and thinks only spare parts are available on July 1st, what's his plan? Riding it out, hoping for mid-tier draft picks to develop into stars and going for a hockey trade to shake things up once in a while? I totally love the logic behind not wanting to trade unproven assets to acquire impact players because those assets could turn out to be good, yet not wanting to trade impact players for unproven assets because there's no guarantee those assets will ever be good. That's a great strategy to maintain the Status quo for as long as possible. I'm genuinely curious how he intends to get his hands on elite, game-breaking talent. Oh wait, he hasn't managed to do that in 8 years, why would he start thinking about it now.

 

1 hour ago, jeff33 said:

Isn't that the best??

can't risk the future for the present, can't risk the present for the future. Literally telling the fans to their face we are not really trying to win. please, buy a VIP box.

 

Pretty much. He's proven he's a guy who doesn't want to risk being wrong on a trade. He doesn't want to give up a 1st rounder with a chance of that guy becoming a star and he doesn't want to give up a good player for a prospect or pick in case the future doesn't pan out and he gave up something better... one of the only times he did it was when he was backed into a corner with Pacioretty and made one of his best trades, yet he's afraid to do it with Weber, Petry, Price, Tatar, or Gallagher.

Can you trade all of them? No. But you could easily create a legitimate Cup window by dealing 1-2 of them now for NHL-ready players. Bergevin's entire mandate has been built around trying not to be bad rather than trying to be good.

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1 hour ago, campabee82 said:

I submit that while this may be MB and CJ's evaluation of the team and prospects I do not believe that it is the evaluation of the team. I think GM, TT and many others in the organization see Caufield and Romanov as being NHL ready now. There are many other GM's that felt like either could have stepped in this year. At the beginning of the season MB was asked what his expectations were for Caufield and MB said it was simply to go out and continue doing what he does best against harder competition which is scoring goals and if he could add some assists to make himself more of a threat offensively he sees no reason why Caufield wouldn't be signed by seasons end. Now that Caufield has accomplished all of that MB and CJ want him to add a defensive element which is a much much harder thing for an offensive guy to learn. MB has proven time and again that he doesn't know what he wants this is another example which is also why CJ's job has been so much harder than it should be these last 2 or 3 years and I am no fan of CJ so that statement there says a lot

1. I don't know why Bergevin would go out of his way to make points about what Caufield was bad at and needed to work on and I don't know why he would say he needed to spend another year in University if he could be convinced to do so if in fact he really thought he was ready. It would be to Bergevin's advantage if Caufield was ready to bring him in next year and add him to the roster. Bergevin knows they need an injection of goal-scoring talent. If anything, this is a good sign that Bergevin isn't willing to rush a prospect just to save his own job. I think Caufield could easily come in and be a PP weapon for us, but at this point, he'd be a liability at ES, so he'd be no more than what Marc-Andre Bergeron or Mark Streit (1st stint here) were... yes, easier to hide a forward in the line-up but given the Habs have no elite forwards, they need to be able to roll 4 lines as an advantage, so it hurts to have a guy in there who you don't trust at ES.

2. There is a reason not to sign Caufield this year... it burns a year of his ELC and if he plays enough games, puts him one year closer to free agency. If he's not ready and you're not in need of him for a playoff race, why bother? Maybe he goes against the Habs' advice and goes to Laval next year, but there's no reason to bring him in this year.

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4 minutes ago, BigTed3 said:

1. I don't know why Bergevin would go out of his way to make points about what Caufield was bad at and needed to work on and I don't know why he would say he needed to spend another year in University if he could be convinced to do so if in fact he really thought he was ready. It would be to Bergevin's advantage if Caufield was ready to bring him in next year and add him to the roster. Bergevin knows they need an injection of goal-scoring talent. If anything, this is a good sign that Bergevin isn't willing to rush a prospect just to save his own job. I think Caufield could easily come in and be a PP weapon for us, but at this point, he'd be a liability at ES, so he'd be no more than what Marc-Andre Bergeron or Mark Streit (1st stint here) were... yes, easier to hide a forward in the line-up but given the Habs have no elite forwards, they need to be able to roll 4 lines as an advantage, so it hurts to have a guy in there who you don't trust at ES.

2. There is a reason not to sign Caufield this year... it burns a year of his ELC and if he plays enough games, puts him one year closer to free agency. If he's not ready and you're not in need of him for a playoff race, why bother? Maybe he goes against the Habs' advice and goes to Laval next year, but there's no reason to bring him in this year.

1. I didn't say that MB believes he is ready and said all of that. I said MB and CJ view him as not being ready but I don't believe that's what Timmons and Molson among others in the organization feel. MB said the organization as a whole feel he isn't ready.

2. My other point was that MB has contradicted himself once again in saying he felt that if Caufield could continue developing his offensive game with UW he saw no reason why Caufield wouldn't be signed by the end of the year. Now he is saying that Caufield needs to learn the defensive side of the game next season to get a contract. Why did he not lay it all out at the beginning of the year when he was asked. He could have said we want Cole to continue with his offensive output and become better defensively. 

3. And most importantly, I agree there is no rush to sign him and burn off the first year of his ELC. However, when we drafted him we only had 3 years to sign him to an ELC or we lose his rights by sending him back to UW next season instead of Laval we would be down to just a single year to sign him which is not as big of a deal for the Habs but maybe it is for Cole who at the draft said he is looking for the FASTEST route to the NHL so why risk insulting him when signing him and sending him to Laval this season and perhaps next season as well would be just as beneficial to his development.

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50 minutes ago, campabee82 said:

1. I didn't say that MB believes he is ready and said all of that. I said MB and CJ view him as not being ready but I don't believe that's what Timmons and Molson among others in the organization feel. MB said the organization as a whole feel he isn't ready.

2. My other point was that MB has contradicted himself once again in saying he felt that if Caufield could continue developing his offensive game with UW he saw no reason why Caufield wouldn't be signed by the end of the year. Now he is saying that Caufield needs to learn the defensive side of the game next season to get a contract. Why did he not lay it all out at the beginning of the year when he was asked. He could have said we want Cole to continue with his offensive output and become better defensively. 

3. And most importantly, I agree there is no rush to sign him and burn off the first year of his ELC. However, when we drafted him we only had 3 years to sign him to an ELC or we lose his rights by sending him back to UW next season instead of Laval we would be down to just a single year to sign him which is not as big of a deal for the Habs but maybe it is for Cole who at the draft said he is looking for the FASTEST route to the NHL so why risk insulting him when signing him and sending him to Laval this season and perhaps next season as well would be just as beneficial to his development.

I don't think burning a year ELC is as much of an issue as the question of whether  Caulfield will even be ready to jump to the AHL grind next season ...hence the hesitation . To be sure he's a goal scorer that the club badly needs but the risk is that starting him off too soon might in fact hinder his development . I tend to believe another year in University hockey wouldn't hurt but then again this kid keeps pushing through every level despite his size .Still , you can't just be one-dimensional in today's NHL . The club monitors their prospects decently well and , progress- wise , that's probably what you were hearing from Bergevin . I don't think this is about money because there's always a bridge contract to follow his 1st 3 years nor do I think the Habs will risk losing his rights . 

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20 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I don't think burning a year ELC is as much of an issue as the question of whether  Caulfield will even be ready to jump to the AHL grind next season ...hence the hesitation . To be sure he's a goal scorer that the club badly needs but the risk is that starting him off too soon might in fact hinder his development . I tend to believe another year in University hockey wouldn't hurt but then again this kid keeps pushing through every level despite his size .Still , you can't just be one-dimensional in today's NHL . The club monitors their prospects decently well and , progress- wise , that's probably what you were hearing from Bergevin . I don't think this is about money because there's always a bridge contract to follow his 1st 3 years nor do I think the Habs will risk losing his rights . 

Perhaps I am more biased but I haven't seen anything to indicate that he is a defensive liability. He has always been a plus or even player in the plus/minus department. Even this year on the worst team in his division he is an even player which suggests that he isn't a defensive liability. Also to note is that while he is an even player this year he also plays on a line with Turcotte another freshman so the fact that he isn't a minus player is evidence that he is not a liability although he definitely is not a top two-way player he isn't one-dimensional either.

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49 minutes ago, arpem-can said:

I don't think burning a year ELC is as much of an issue as the question of whether  Caulfield will even be ready to jump to the AHL grind next season ...hence the hesitation . To be sure he's a goal scorer that the club badly needs but the risk is that starting him off too soon might in fact hinder his development . I tend to believe another year in University hockey wouldn't hurt but then again this kid keeps pushing through every level despite his size .Still , you can't just be one-dimensional in today's NHL . The club monitors their prospects decently well and , progress- wise , that's probably what you were hearing from Bergevin . I don't think this is about money because there's always a bridge contract to follow his 1st 3 years nor do I think the Habs will risk losing his rights . 

Here is a direct quote from elite prospects site read the highlighted then tell me Cole is one dimensional

A game-breaking goal scorer that, despite his diminutive frame, thrives under pressure and is difficult to contain. Defensively, he’s uncomfortable having the puck in his own end for long and he’ll make the extra effort to pressure around the blue line and take away cross-ice options. Upon procuring puck possession, he’ll be the first to explode up ice in-transition. The hallmark of his game is his exceptional goal-scoring ability. He has a shot that absolutely leaps off his stick with pinpoint accuracy when he lets loose and a low centre of gravity that facilitates fast and flashy puckhandling at pace. 

He dogs after the puck in the D zone much like Gallagher and Tatar. I have watched UW games online a few times thìs year and never once has he just gone out for a skate like Drouin has on multiple occasions throughout his career. The kid loves the game and hates when the opposing team scores and as an added bonus can score like Richard who was also thought to be one dimensional and too small for the league, I am in no waysaying the kid is going to be a Richard but he has the ability and drive to make the NHL 

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5 hours ago, campabee82 said:

3. And most importantly, I agree there is no rush to sign him and burn off the first year of his ELC. However, when we drafted him we only had 3 years to sign him to an ELC or we lose his rights by sending him back to UW next season instead of Laval we would be down to just a single year to sign him which is not as big of a deal for the Habs but maybe it is for Cole who at the draft said he is looking for the FASTEST route to the NHL so why risk insulting him when signing him and sending him to Laval this season and perhaps next season as well would be just as beneficial to his development.

This. Developmentally, I’m in no rush with Caufield. But every couple of years a high profile NCAA player decides to test FA rather than sign with the club that drafted them. I would really hate for Caufield to wind up on that list. I could care less is he suits up for the big’s, but if he wants to turn pro and start making some money I say sign him and stick him in Laval. I don’t see much risk with that. And at least it gets him under contract, eliminating the risk of loosing him for nothing. I also really don’t have an issue with him going back to school. I’ll just be extraordinary peev’d if we loose him to FA.

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